William Lilly Mailing List Archive

Thread:	House meanings
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:32:23 +0100

Try "The Twelve Houses" by Howard Sasportas - one of the best books on
houses,I've ever read for the psychological perpsective. Lilly (CA), of
course, for the horary/traditional. You might try subscribing to the
Traditional Astrology edited by Deborah Houlding which ran an excellent
series on house meanings a few months back. Look for "astrology world" on
the net.

Pat.

>Does anyone have some good definitions of the 12 houses?
>
>thanks
>
>Sunregulus
>
>

Thread:	Update astrological mailinglists etc
From:	tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma)	Date:	02 Oct 97 19:18:38 +0200

Please feel free to copy and publish this information!
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Thread:	Job interview
From:	s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson)	Date:	Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:10:29 -0700

Dear Pat:

Thanks much for the correction; shows you what a newbie I am! ;-) The
end result is that I did not get the position. *sigh* Looking at Mars
(which was conjuncting my natal Saturn), there is not much action except
in the 6th house ruled by Aries. T Saturn is retrograde there. But that
comment about the Moon - ! The Moon, at 9 Leo, in the 9th house - ruled
by Cancer, is conjunct the MC at 12 Leo, and they oppose Uranus at 4
Aquarius and Jupiter at 12 Aquarius. This is compounded by a T-square of
the Ascendant at 7 Scorpio and Venus at 16 Scorpio. All of that certainly
wouldn't augur well for getting the job, would it? Again, thanks for the
pointer.

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com

On Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:45:08 +0100 harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)
writes:
>Dear Sue,
>
>In traditional astrology (a la Lilly) the outer planets are not given
>rulerships of the houses so your Ascendant Lord would be Mars and you
>would
>need to look at that in relation to your 10th ruler, also the Moon as
>your
>co-ruler in the matter.
>
>Regards,
>
>Pat.
>
>>Hi, all:
>>
>>I had a job interview this morning, and what makes it rather
>interesting
>>is that it took place on my birthday, less than a half-hour after my
>>birth time. So the Sun is in the same position in the horary chart
>and
>>my natal chart; the Ascendant is the same, albeit with five degrees'
>>difference. In any case, what happens when the Lord of the Ascendant
>-
>>Pluto - is in the First House?
>>
>>Venus follows at 16 Scorpio, Mars at 28 Scorpio and Pluto at 3
>>Sagittarius; all are in the 1st house. The sixth contains Saturn at
>17
>>Aries retrograde, quincunx Venus, and Venus/Ascendant form squares to
>>Uranus, Jupiter, Moon and MC. Pluto is nicely sextile the Sun.
>>
>>Interview: 9:30 a.m. PDT, Costa Mesa California (33N38 117W55); it
>>concluded at 10:05 a.m.
>>
>>(My natal data is 9-26-56, 9:06 a.m. PDT, Burbank California - use
>Los
>>Angeles coordinates)
>>
>>Thank you very much!
>>
>>Sue
>>
>>Sue Fensalir
>>Fensalir Astrology
>>s.fensalir@juno.com
>>
>>
>
>

Thread:	Earthquake data
From:	spica@world.net (Anne Elliott)	Date:	Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:43:17 +1000 (EST)

Dear Members
Those looking at earthquake data may like to look at

http://gldss7.cr.usgs.gov/neis/bulletin/bulletin.html

which is a "near-real-time Earthquake Bulletin provided by the National
Earthquake Information Service (NEIS) of the U. S. Geological Survey as part of
a cooperative project of the Council of the National Seismic System."
It gives the latest earthquakes, maybe 20 a day, with their longitude,
latitude, depth and strength.

Regards
Anne Elliott
Anne Elliott
------------------------------------------------
Spica Publications for out of print books and mail order astrology books
Subscriptions to The Southern Astrologer, The Traditonal Astrologer, The
Horary Practitioner, The Mountain Astrologer, Astrologer's Quarterly,
Astrologer's Apprentice and Lois Rodden's Data News.
Publisher & Distributor for Robert Zoller's Tools & Techniques of the
Medieval Astrologer etc.
Phone 61 (07) 3273 7344 Fax 61 (07) 3273 5485 Freecall in Australia 1800 626 402
------------------------------------------------

Thread:	Kidney Donation question
From:	aries <aries@freenet.macatawa.org>	Date:	Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:23:23 -0400

Hello All,

I have been a lurker on the list for some time hoping to learn more
about horary. It is a slow going process for me and I have a very
serious question to ask, one that I definitely don't have the expertise
to answer for myself. Please help.

My sister needs a kidney/pancreas transplant. She and I are the only
two siblings with matching blood types, and the pancreas graft needs to
come from a relative. No other matching relatives (cousins, etc.) have
come forward.

The problem is, I have had a diagnosis of Lyme disease. Lyme disease is
very controversial, some doctors do not believe it exists, some do.
Some believe treatment cures it, some think it lasts forever. Some of
my lab work showed positive results, some did not. I was treated for it
intensely and long term. No new symptoms have emerged, but the old
arthritis-type ones have returned. Other than achiness, I have
maintained good health.

My questions are:

Did I ever really have Lyme Disease? And, Do I still have it?
Will I be allowed to donate to my sister?
Will she be "cured" of her diabetes and kidney failure by my donation?
Will the pancreas graft "take"?
Will she contract Lyme disease from my donation?

My dob is: 4/1/53 12:13am EST Zeeland, Mi USA
Sister's dob is: 8/20/61 approx 4:30am EDT Holland, Mi USA
The Transplant Center is located at the University of Minnesota USA.
Her initial work-up is scheduled for October 20, 97

Thank You very much,
aries@macatawa.org

Thread:	Italian earthquake
From:	"Barbara" <arque@ioda.telnet.com.br>	Date:	Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:14:52 +3:00

Hi
very thanks for the data.
The chart for Asissi - not the centre of earthquake - shows
Moon opo Uranus in the asc-ds axis and Saturn in the cusp
of 10th
any more comments?

thanks
barbara
>
> According to the New York Times (Reuters) report of Friday, 9 26 97,
> the 5.5 Richter quake struck 9 26 97, 2:33 AM, and was centered near
> Foligno, in the Umbria region, about 65 miles from Rome.
> Regards, DKR
>
>

Thread:	Italian earthquake
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:04:45 -0400

Barbara wrote:

> Hi
> Somebody knows the data about italian earthquake that
> destroyed Assisi church - where Francesco d'Asissi built
> his church - 170 km from Rome?
>
> very thanks
> Barbara

According to the New York Times (Reuters) report of Friday, 9 26 97,
the 5.5 Richter quake struck 9 26 97, 2:33 AM, and was centered near
Foligno, in the Umbria region, about 65 miles from Rome.
Regards, DKR

Thread:	Italian earthquake
From:	"Barbara" <arque@ioda.telnet.com.br>	Date:	Mon, 29 Sep 1997 15:45:45 +3:00

Hi
Somebody knows the data about italian earthquake that
destroyed Assisi church - where Francesco d'Asissi built
his church - 170 km from Rome?

very thanks
Barbara

Thread:	Why Pay when you can get it on-line free ?
From:	jon <jonn@dircon.co.uk>	Date:	Sun, 28 Sep 1997 17:04:35

At 11:44 27/09/97 -0400, JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
>At 02:38 PM 9/22/97 -0400, iclea something wrote:
>>Dear Ms. Wiggers,
>>
>>As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
>>depth of her professionalism,

what I find so offensive is this dreadful person using which instead of
who. Can somebody get her certified, if that's what she wants?

Jon
Jon

Thread:	Atomic Clock
From:	Manon Richard <carmen@dds.nl>	Date:	Sun, 28 Sep 1997 18:38:04 +-200

<>

Besides, there are many small programs available which log on to an atomic clock any time you log on to the internet and correct the time of your computer. For example http://www.wimsey.com/locutus for Socket Watch. I have found this procedure to be very accurate.
(I have no financial interest in this company)

Manon
carmen@dds.nl

Thread:	Atomic Clock Time
From:	Paula & John <jhl3@zebra.net>	Date:	Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:04:19 -0500

There's another neat little piece of shareware called Atom Time that does
the same thing; you can find it at:

http://www.wavefront.com/~badelsman/Software

It's very small, doesn't mess with system files, and is easy to use.
What's nice about this, too, is that you don't have to visit a website to
calibrate your clock. Just get on the Internet, click a button, and Atom
Time gets the correct time and resets your clock.

John

At 09:31 PM 9/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>I found the following page for setting the computer clock to the atomic clock
>for excellent accuracy. You just click on the icon that says atomic clock.
> Go to:
>
>http://morpheus.hartford.edu/cs/student/kaloisi/utils/clock/
>
>Tony
>

=============================================
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the
argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

William Pitt
-----------------
PGP Public key available upon request
=============================================

Thread:	Job interview
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:45:08 +0100

Dear Sue,

In traditional astrology (a la Lilly) the outer planets are not given
rulerships of the houses so your Ascendant Lord would be Mars and you would
need to look at that in relation to your 10th ruler, also the Moon as your
co-ruler in the matter.

Regards,

Pat.

>Hi, all:
>
>I had a job interview this morning, and what makes it rather interesting
>is that it took place on my birthday, less than a half-hour after my
>birth time. So the Sun is in the same position in the horary chart and
>my natal chart; the Ascendant is the same, albeit with five degrees'
>difference. In any case, what happens when the Lord of the Ascendant -
>Pluto - is in the First House?
>
>Venus follows at 16 Scorpio, Mars at 28 Scorpio and Pluto at 3
>Sagittarius; all are in the 1st house. The sixth contains Saturn at 17
>Aries retrograde, quincunx Venus, and Venus/Ascendant form squares to
>Uranus, Jupiter, Moon and MC. Pluto is nicely sextile the Sun.
>
>Interview: 9:30 a.m. PDT, Costa Mesa California (33N38 117W55); it
>concluded at 10:05 a.m.
>
>(My natal data is 9-26-56, 9:06 a.m. PDT, Burbank California - use Los
>Angeles coordinates)
>
>Thank you very much!
>
>Sue
>
>Sue Fensalir
>Fensalir Astrology
>s.fensalir@juno.com
>
>

Thread:	Atomic Clock Time
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:31:44 -0400 (EDT)

I found the following page for setting the computer clock to the atomic clock
for excellent accuracy. You just click on the icon that says atomic clock.
Go to:

http://morpheus.hartford.edu/cs/student/kaloisi/utils/clock/

Tony

Thread:	Why Pay when you can get it on-line free ?
From:	JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net>	Date:	Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:44:15 -0400 (EDT)

At 02:38 PM 9/22/97 -0400, iclea something wrote:
>Dear Ms. Wiggers,
>
>As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
>depth of her professionalism, I have but one question to ask. If you
>value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
>place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
>entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
>? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
>8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?

Not the knowledge, but the time and energy spent in sharing them, is what
most spiritual people I know ask to be paid for. They don't charge extra
for extra-good revelations or insight.

Do you expect people who have a spiritual path to give up eating and paying
the rent? Maybe farmers should not be paid, for food is too important to us
to make us pay for it. We should get it for free.

Let's carry it further. Professionally, I am a computer programmer and
analyst. You could say that what I do is spiritually and specifically
ordained by God or Christ or whatever deity you believe in, because I firmly
believe that the kind of work I do was designed for me to do. Should I then
do it for nothing? How about the people who make "getting it free online"
possible, should you never have to pay for online service or a computer or
software because you are using it to get wisdom?

This is indeed the prophet without honor in his own country.

>I am angered at people like you, for you show no respect to the
>persons responsible for setting the oracles free for all men & women
>to use and learn from.

You show no respect for Carol and the work she has done. If there is
someone who is able to set this knowledge free without price for his or her
time and effort, let him or her step forward now and serve all mankind
without asking. Are you such? Then start your own list and have your own
revelatory party.

Do you think the wisdom of the ages will be thwarted by someone cutting off
the flow at $50 per hour? Wisdom is everywhere.

>There is NO PRICE for spiritual knowledge, except for the karma you
>must pay at the end of your journey. So know this: as you sit here
>and gain monetarily in this temporal zone, your debt is rising higher
>and higher as time closes the distance of your earthly journey.

I hope the price you have to pay is not too high.

-JoAnne

Thread:	Querent as Seller
From:	astrology@aurumtel.com	Date:	Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:50:25 -0400

I am fairly new to horary, so this comment may be off the wall, but maybe you
should look at the aspects between the rulers of the 7th (buyer in this case)
and the 4th (property of the seller). Also at the aspects between the moon (as
querent) and the 7th (or did you try that already?).

On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)
wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>Many thanks for those of you who have put finger to keyboard on this one.
>
>My query is not about the resolution of the question by the coming together
>of the first and seventh significators. That one I can accept.
>
>I'm more concerned about the specific case of selling a house where there is
>no perfection between first and seventh so we look to the significators of
>the first and fourth.
>
>If the querent is selling then it is the coming together of the querent and
>his property (fourth) which doesn't chime for me since the property is
>leaving him.
>
>The same would apply with the significators of the first and second in the
>case of portable property or the first and sixth if the question were "Will
>my employee leave my company?"
>
>Hope that makes the specific query clearer - I'm still open for business on
>this one.
>
>Thanks again for your input.
>
>All the best,
>Jonathon
>Visit the Tree of Life website at:
>http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife
>
>
>
>
Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum
---------------------------
- Duxbury, Massachusetts -
- astrology@aurumtel.com -
---------------------------

Thread:	Marv Albert Trial
From:	s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson)	Date:	Fri, 26 Sep 1997 21:00:31 -0700

From: s.fensalir
To: jonn@mailhost.dircon.co.uk
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:12:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Marv Albert Trial
Message-ID: <19970926.204356.12846.0.s.fensalir@juno.com>

On Fri, 26 Sep 97 05:49:33 GMT jonn@mailhost.dircon.co.uk writes:
>Marv Albert - who he?
>--
>Jon
>
Hi, Jon:

I've done my best NOT to follow the trial but the media has a way of
getting it across. He's a sportscaster who stands accused by a woman of
forcible sodomy and other assaults including lots of biting, which is how
he likes sex. She, I believe, sicced the cops, etc. on him. The DNA has
been taken here there & everywhere, and there are other women who have
recounted in nearly identical terms of such sexual encounters with him.
None of them knew what they were letting themselves in for, from what I
gather. Who he indeed? In a nutshell, scum.

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com

Thread:	Job interview
From:	s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson)	Date:	Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:43:51 -0700

Hi, all:

I had a job interview this morning, and what makes it rather interesting
is that it took place on my birthday, less than a half-hour after my
birth time. So the Sun is in the same position in the horary chart and
my natal chart; the Ascendant is the same, albeit with five degrees'
difference. In any case, what happens when the Lord of the Ascendant -
Pluto - is in the First House?

Venus follows at 16 Scorpio, Mars at 28 Scorpio and Pluto at 3
Sagittarius; all are in the 1st house. The sixth contains Saturn at 17
Aries retrograde, quincunx Venus, and Venus/Ascendant form squares to
Uranus, Jupiter, Moon and MC. Pluto is nicely sextile the Sun.

Interview: 9:30 a.m. PDT, Costa Mesa California (33N38 117W55); it
concluded at 10:05 a.m.

(My natal data is 9-26-56, 9:06 a.m. PDT, Burbank California - use Los
Angeles coordinates)

Thank you very much!

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com

Thread:	Marv Albert Trial
From:	vesper@execpc.com	Date:	Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:25:52 -0500 (CDT)

At 05:07 PM 9/25/97 -0300, you wrote:
>At 05:27 PM 9/25/97 +0000, Hardaspect@aol.com wrote:
>>For electional purposes, does anyone have the time of the beginning of the
>>Marv Albert trial?
>
>Does anyone have Marv Albert's birth data?
>
>Julienne
>
Its either June 12, 1941, or June 12, 1943, both Brooklyn, NY, both time
unknown. Either way its dirty data picked up from posts on other lists and
newspaper accounts of his current age...some say 54 and some say 56.
Hopefully someone will find more reliable data but thats all I have thus far.

Terri

Thread:	Querent as Seller
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Fri, 26 Sep 1997 04:27:44 -0700 (PDT)

>Thanks, Sandra, for your reply - my comments are as below.
Jonathon

To Johnathan:
>
>I am new to the study of horary. If there is no relationship (shown by
aspects ) between the buyer and the seller, you don't have a sale whatever
is involved.

The passage I have in mind is on p. 205 of Christian Astrology and reads as
follows (I should probably have cited this in the first place)

"If the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon apply to the Lord of the fourth or
the Moon [Moon can signify the property] to the Lord of the Ascendant...or
if the Lord of the Ascendant be in the fourth, or the Moon, or the Lord of
the fourth in the Ascendant, then shall the party enquiring buy the house..."

Can you simplify your question into one sentence then give the context, so
I can try to help?

Does the coming together of the Lords of the first and fourth signify
success if the querent is trying to sell rather than buy?
>
J.
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	Astrology and Blood Group study
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:46:34 +0100

I'm afraid this not very "Traditional" but I wonder if it would be okay to
send out a notice seeking volunteers for this study on the List? The
introduction to the study will discuss some aspects of traditional medical
astrology so there will be a connection in that way.

I am carrying out a study into astrological patterns and blood groups to see
if there are is an astrological pattern present in one group which is not
present in another. I would need a volunteer's time, date and place of
birth together with their blood group and where and how they got hold of the
informtion for both these pieces of data. If you have friends or family
members who can provide me with the relevant data for themselves and who
would like to take part I would be very pleased to hear from them, also

Pat.

Thread:	Querent as Seller
From:	spider@wildmaw.com (Mark Webb)	Date:	Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:39:50 GMT

Jonathon,

As mentioned elsewhere, my understanding of the situation is that the
application or coming together represents the Querent moving towards
the time/place of the requested event. For instance, in the "Will the
employee leave the company?" question, the application indicates the
the Querent is moving towards the time of the event no application
indicates that there is no movement towards the event.

Regards,

Mark

Thread:	Marv Albert Trial
From:	jonn@mailhost.dircon.co.uk	Date:	Fri, 26 Sep 97 05:49:33 GMT

Marv Albert - who he?
--
Jon

-----------------------------Reply Separator---------------------------------
On 25/09/97 10:27, in message <970925132522_1030734130@emout14.mail.aol.com>,
Hardaspect@aol.com wrote:

> For electional purposes, does anyone have the time of the beginning of the
> Marv Albert trial?
>
>
> Basil Fearrington
>

Thread:	Marv Albert Trial
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:07:44 -0300

At 05:27 PM 9/25/97 +0000, Hardaspect@aol.com wrote:
>For electional purposes, does anyone have the time of the beginning of the
>Marv Albert trial?

Does anyone have Marv Albert's birth data?

Julienne

Thread:	Querent as Seller
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:02:36 +0100

>Dear All,
>
>Many thanks for those of you who have put finger to keyboard on this one.
>
>My query is not about the resolution of the question by the coming together
>of the first and seventh significators. That one I can accept.
>
>I'm more concerned about the specific case of selling a house where there is
>no perfection between first and seventh so we look to the significators of
>the first and fourth.
>
>If the querent is selling then it is the coming together of the querent and
>his property (fourth) which doesn't chime for me since the property is
>leaving him.
>
>The same would apply with the significators of the first and second in the
>case of portable property or the first and sixth if the question were "Will
>my employee leave my company?"
>
Hi, Jonathan,

Sorry not to have been much help on this one. Following your logic on the
other houses, though, it would seem that the coming together of the seller's
significator with his own fourth may well indicate that he doesn't sell
because he wants to keep the property for some reason. Has anyone got any
real cases out there with this happening where the outcome is now known?

Pat.

Thread:	Marv Albert Trial
From:	Hardaspect@aol.com	Date:	Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:27:50 -0400 (EDT)

For electional purposes, does anyone have the time of the beginning of the
Marv Albert trial?

Basil Fearrington

Thread:	Querent as Seller
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Thu, 25 Sep 1997 02:17:22 -0700

Dear All,

Many thanks for those of you who have put finger to keyboard on this one.

My query is not about the resolution of the question by the coming together
of the first and seventh significators. That one I can accept.

I'm more concerned about the specific case of selling a house where there is
no perfection between first and seventh so we look to the significators of
the first and fourth.

If the querent is selling then it is the coming together of the querent and
his property (fourth) which doesn't chime for me since the property is
leaving him.

The same would apply with the significators of the first and second in the
case of portable property or the first and sixth if the question were "Will
my employee leave my company?"

Hope that makes the specific query clearer - I'm still open for business on
this one.

Thanks again for your input.

All the best,
Jonathon
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	Job search question
From:	Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:47:16 -0400

At 08:05 PM 9/23/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Question for those who know more than I:
>
>A question has come to me and the wording has me uncertain about framing
>the answer. The querent asks "should I go South in search of work?"
>Do I use 10th House for South, as well as "work". Do I look for
>Capricorn,( work), as South delineator? Or should I just look to 10th
>Work and see what is there.
>The wording of the question uses South as a theme., so I am not sure
>how to read this.

There are two questions here, both 1st house. The first is, "Where would I
be better off?" If one finds the benefics, Fortune and the Moon in the
desired direction, great. If one find the malefics, not essentially
dignified, in the desired direction, not great.

The second question is, "Where should I go to increase wealth?" Look at the
Second ruler, Fortune and Fortune's dispositor. Any two of these agreeing
would indicate the direction one should go to increase wealth by one's own
efforts.

Warm Regards,

>
>Thank you for taking the time to assist me here.
>
>Sue Miller
>Aikido@juno.com
>
Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread:	Paying/Praying/Proselytizing
From:	Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:16:42 -0400

At 06:25 PM 9/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Evidently Ms. Noel is being financially supported by her faith community as a
>missionary in her efforts to spread the love, light and the Peace of Christ
>throughout the internet. Let's hope her Conversion Oversight Committee does
>not grow weary counting her many converts. No! Wait! I'll bet she is so
>highly developed spiritually, she is a Breathatarian and survives only on
>(hot) air! But pity us poor working traditional astrologers, caught between
>religious fundamentalists on both sides! Perhaps we can just duck and they'd
>just sling their verbal arrows at one another. If this contest were ever to
>take place, I'd have to root for the Baptists: at least they use their real
>names.
>
>Maggie
>

Dear Maggie,

I believe the current phrase applying to people such as Ms. Noel is
"unreconstructed hippy." Even ol' William L. had problems with clients who
wanted his expertise for free.

Maybe we "poor" astrologers ought to collect fees from people who assign us
bad "karma." I'd say Ms. Noel is into this for about $100 so far. :)

Best wishes,

Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread:	Hell devil
From:	maieutica@tassie.net.au	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:13:42 +1000

Claudia
Thanks for your response - guess I just got paranoid and then mortified
when I ssaw my email address wrote...(then the hell devil's tirade).

Best.

Christine

At 11:52 PM 23/09/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi, Christine,
>
>I for one did not think you were the author of the message. Her name was
>something NOEL. And when I wrote my reply to her, the message was
>returned to me by mail devil twice!!! Neither your name nor your e-mail
>address appeared on original note forwarded to list by Carol. You are
clear in
>my book. You are ON THE LIST!!!!!
>

Thread:	Job search question
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 05:57:50 -0700 (PDT)

>Question for those who know more than I:
>
>A question has come to me and the wording has me uncertain about framing
>the answer. The querent asks "should I go South in search of work?"
>Do I use 10th House for South, as well as "work". Do I look for
>Capricorn,( work), as South delineator? Or should I just look to 10th
>Work and see what is there.
>The wording of the question uses South as a theme., so I am not sure
>how to read this.
>
>Thank you for taking the time to assist me here.
>
>Sue Miller
>Aikido@juno.com

Dear Sue,

If there is uncertainty about the question itself I feel it is most
important to first check that the question is radical. Most people on this
list would probably agree that the clearer the question the clearer is the
chart.

Assuming the chart can be judged then I suggest the primary consideration is
the position and state of the signficators of the first house (querent) and
the tenth (occupation or career).
>
The position of the significator of the tenth (and first, plus Moon) may
give a clue to direction. Look to the tenth house as south but also consider
Capricorn as a significator of the south and the variations around that per
page 204 of Christian Astrology.

If you don't have a copy of CA shout again or put up the chart details and
the collective thinking of the Lilly list will probably give some further
suggestions.
Hope this helps.

All the best,
Jonathon
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	Why pray(?) when you can get it on-line free?
From:	Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:50:06 -0400

At 07:23 AM 9/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
In reply to Whoozis, Will Morris writes:
>Wow!!!
>
>1. Off list topics. Leave!

Hopefully, it was a one-shot deal and Whoozis will accumulate her "karma"
somewhere else.

>2. Clearly defined fee for service is far more honest and reasonable than the
>hours of service and amounts of money that large spiritual oragnizations
>require from members with a veneer of "free".

Nothing runs very long without grease for the wheels. Money is the grease
of business.

>3. While you're at it, since psychotherapists take the place of priests at
>confession for a large part of our culture, they should provide from the
>goodness of heart as well.

Yes, along with physicians, lawyers, plumbers, etc.

>4. Get real. There is a home a business and family to run. There is no
>superstructure of the church to provide for astrologers.

In some cases, there are. However, there are still fees. Nonetheless, if
one's business is Astrology, one charges a fee same as any other service
provider.
>
>Please excuse my tone......List Keeper delete if you feel this is
>innappropriate.
>
I agree with everything you said, and, in my opinion, your tone was quite
reserved and diplomatic. I would guess List Keeper thought so too as your
message wasn't deleted. :)

Best Wishes,

Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread:	The querent as seller
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 05:36:24 -0700

>>Dear Pat,
>
>
>>In her book "Simpllified Horary Astrology" Ivy Goldstein-Jacobsen writes:
>>(p214) "Take the 1st house for the querent who wants to buy or sell, and the
>>7th house for the other person in the transaction..."
>>
>>(And never, never, never give the lst house to anyone but the "Querent" in
>>the matter - particularly if you are taking the QHP course....)
>
>Sorry, I may not have been clear enough in my original posting. I'm not
>disputing that the querent is ever anything other than the first. Rather, I
>ma trying to drive at what may be a contradiction if the querent is the
>seller and perfection is to be signified by the coming together of two
>planets - this doesn't seem, symbolically, to represent what is happening.
>
>Cheers,
>Jonathon
>
>>
>>In other words, the 1st rules the Querent whether he/she be buyer or seller
>>and you must interpret the significators accordingly. Eg the 4th from the
>>1st is the property for sale belonging to the Querent if the Querent is the
>>seller in the transaction.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Pat.
>>

Yes. Agreed. But is perfection achieved by the joining of these two
significators. A joining does not seem to reflect what is happening in a sale.

J.

>>>Opinions sought on this old favourite:
>>>
>>>Where the querent is the purchaser (of, for example, a house) the
>>>application of the significators of the first and seventh or first and
>>>fourth seem to describe the process taking place (coming together of two
>>>entities) but where the question is about a sale is it still the application
>>>of these two significators which denotes success even though, symbollically,
>>>they are parting company?
>>>
>>>I look forward to receiving your collective thoughts.
>>>
>>>All the best,
>>>Jonathon
>>>Visit the Tree of Life website at:
>>>http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>Visit the Tree of Life website at:
>http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife
>
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	Birth time rectification
From:	"Jerry Wong" <jerry@oops.com.au>	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:35:16 -0000

Hi,

I live in Sydney, Australia.
I have some friends who are very interested in astrology and would like to
have their birth charts created. Unfortunately, they do not know their
birth time. The next thing I can think of is to get a good astrologer to
have the birth time rectified. Do you know if there are any GOOD
astrologers who can perform the birth time rectification ? Thank you very
much.

Yours sincerely,

Jerry

Thread:	The querent as seller
From:	Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:28:17 -0400

At 07:17 AM 9/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Sorry, I may not have been clear enough in my original posting. I'm not
>disputing that the querent is ever anything other than the first. Rather, I
>ma trying to drive at what may be a contradiction if the querent is the
>seller and perfection is to be signified by the coming together of two
>planets - this doesn't seem, symbolically, to represent what is happening.
>
>Cheers,
>Jonathon

Any successful transaction is an exchange of equal value, i.e., cash for
property and property for cash. No matter what the question, perfection is
attained by the general rules regarding significators, aspects, translation
and collection of light, etc. The chart doesn't reverse itself should the
querent be a buyer rather than a seller. Whether the querent be buyer or
seller, if his significator applies to that of the quesited, the
transaction will be perfected under the usual rules.

One should be clear on "symbols." Astrology is a language that uses
symbols, as all languages do. However, those symbols point to real
situations and real people, not symbolic situations and people. Astrology
tells one what is really happening, not what is symbolically happening.

Warm Regards,

Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread:	Terms
From:	WMorris116@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:11:20 -0400 (EDT)

Has anyone made a comparative study of Egyptian vs Ptolemeic terms?

Thanx

Will Morris

Thread:	Why PAY when you can get it on line???
From:	WMorris116@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:59:20 -0400 (EDT)

Very well, I'm glad you cleared it up and am comforted. That material smacks
of inquisition. Maybe you could forward these posts to that individual. In
the future, framing the post and including names and addresses of all parties
concerned may prevent useless bandwidth waste.

Thank You

Will

<< Hey, Will Morris - I did NOT write this tirad to the list. I replied
(unfortunately have deleted both my reply and this appauling note below
which came in via the list) and changed the subject from "Why PAY when you
can get it on line" to "Why PRAY when you can get it on line". I'm the
most unlikely person to write such gobbledygook.

When I received this so called christian tirad message there was no
signature - hence I addressed mine to "Dear No Name"

Just had to clear this up - FAST!

sincerely

Christine Stribley
maieutica@tassie.net.au
In a message dated 97-09-22 23:08:54 EDT, maieutica@tassie.net.au writes: >>

Thread:	The querent as seller
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:29:25 +0100

Dear Jonathon,

I was only trying to be funny witht the following
>>
>>(And never, never, never give the lst house to anyone but the "Querent" in
>>the matter - particularly if you are taking the QHP course....)

Because of my personal experiences in this area....

>Sorry, I may not have been clear enough in my original posting. I'm not
>disputing that the querent is ever anything other than the first.
First, of course, you have to be absolutely certain who the Querent is ...
and determination, in my experience, may not always so cut and dried as it
should be.

>Rather, I
>ma trying to drive at what may be a contradiction if the querent is the
>seller and perfection is to be signified by the coming together of two
>planets - this doesn't seem, symbolically, to represent what is >happening.

Sorry to be thick but I'm still not clear - can you give a working example.
Do you mean if the Seller as querent has his/her ruler applying to the ruler
of his/her fourth then it may indicate that the seller is moving towards
his/her own property whereas if the buyer's significator does not do this
then the buyer does not appear to be interested in the property? You would
have to check out the Moon as co-ruler of the Querent and links (mutual
reception etc.) between buyer and seller via significators first to see if a
sale could be effected. Maybe a perfecting aspect between the seller and
his property might indicate a reluctance on the part of the seller to sell
but if the aspect were beneficial the end result may be so.

Kind regards,

Pat.

Thread:	Re[4]: 4th/10th
From:	"Nicholas Grier" <n.grier@napier.ac.uk>	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 97 11:03:05 gmt

Dear Frank,
Yours is a very fair point. Well worth consideration.
Nicholas

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: 4th/10th
Author: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> at internet-gateway
Date: 23/09/97 19:37

>Message was resent -- Original recipients were:
To:
william_lilly@halcyon.com-------------------------------------------------------
------------------------
At 11:07 AM 9/22/97 gmt, you wrote:
> Hi, everyone,
[snip]
> Leaving that aside, in the context of the discussion of 4th-10th
> rulership of parents, might it not be instructive to see what actually
> works in practice nowadays ? I personally find that 4th house does
> very well for home and Mum, and tenth house for career and Dad. That's
> what works for me, but I am not pretending that it is therefore
> "right" What do the rest of you find in your ordinary day to day
> practice ? You can see the Dr Johnson-like pragmatic approach
> considerably appeals to me......
>
> Let's hear what you all think.
>
> Nicholas

Dear Nicholas,

I suspect that the apparent 4th-10th parenting dichotomy is more a result
of sexual politics than nature. My experience is that the 4th describes
father generally and the 10th describes mother generally. Using your
experience, one might encounter a difficulty using 10th for career and Dad
in a household where Mum has the career and Dad stays home with the
children, for instance. I suspect further that the home-career distinction
is a misleading one.

My point is that the 4th-10th parent axis is determined by what goes on in
nature, not what is superficial and socially trendy at the moment. I submit
that the association of Dad and career 10th is misleading. The 10th is
*your* professional standing, not your father's. The 4th is *your* home and
foundations, not your mother's.

For your consideration.

Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread:	Why Pay when you can get it on-line free ?
From:	"dorothy j kovach" <astrodot@hotmail.com>	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:13:32 PDT

dear complaining person,
>
I fail to understand why you write this letter. Mrs. Wiggers is one of
the hardest working people I know of. Further she brings us this list,
and if you think that that is easy, you are very misinformed. I am very
disappointed that you can even think of writing such a letter. This
list, which by the way, brings you the very finest astrologers from
around the world, is absolutely free. So I don't exactly know what you
are snivelling about. Personally, I feel extrememly grateful to Mrs.
Wiggers for providing this excellent list to everybody. As I have said
in the past, Carol deserves a medal for this. I hope that in the future
you learn to get all your facts straight before you write such a letter,
because, in my humble opinion, your letter was very unprofessional.

disappointedly,
Dorothy J. Kovach
dstar@mcn.org

>you wrote:
>As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
>depth of her professionalism........

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Thread:	Why Pay when you can get it on-line free ?
From:	spider@wildmaw.com (Mark Webb)	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:30:30 GMT

Deb,

On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:10:23 -0400, you wrote:

>Carol,
>
>You do seem to atract them lately don't you? (Actually I get them myself
>from time to time but they go straight to the delete button.)

But that *is* understandable. (gd&r)

>You know that the only people who get motivated to fill their time writing
>discouraging and critical comments like this are only ever those that are
>inflamed with jealousy. Hey, it's their problem not yours!!

It livens up the list once in a while :-)

>Forget this and laugh it off - it's nothing. People appreciate you more
>than you'll ever realise.

Hear! Hear! Don't let it put you off, we need both this list and all
your other work (you too Deb.)

Regards,

Mark

Thread:	The querent as seller
From:	spider@wildmaw.com (Mark Webb)	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:30:28 GMT

Jonathon,

On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:06:43 -0700, you wrote:

>Opinions sought on this old favourite:
>
>Where the querent is the purchaser (of, for example, a house) the
>application of the significators of the first and seventh or first and
>fourth seem to describe the process taking place (coming together of two
>entities) but where the question is about a sale is it still the application
>of these two significators which denotes success even though, symbollically,
>they are parting company?

There are still two entities coming together - the buyer and the
seller, even when the querent is the seller. Even if you consider
that the seller is parting company with the item being sold there is a
coming together of the seller and the time/place of the sale.

Regards,

Mark

Thread:	Why pray(?) when you can get it on-line free?
From:	WMorris116@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:35:35 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-09-23 23:27:13 EDT, allen_edwall@compuserve.com writes:

<< >> What costs little is worth little

Does that apply to the teachings of Christ, Buddha, Confucious, etc?

>>

Thread:	Why pray(?) when you can get it on-line free?
From:	allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com>	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:27:40 -0400

>> What costs little is worth little

Does that apply to the teachings of Christ, Buddha, Confucious, etc?

Thread:	4th/10th: response to Michael
From:	vesper@execpc.com	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:27:15 -0500 (CDT)

Interesting. Ten years ago when my husband went to court for custody of his
children from his first marriage, the court-appointed social worker told him
he would make a poor custodial parent since he was out earning a living and
unavailable to be at home to care for the children all day. Seems like
maybe the legal tables have turned with a vengeance.

Terri

At 05:46 PM 9/23/97 -0500, John wrote:
>Maybe, maybe not. I've heard that it didn't used to be like this, that in
>fact during the pre-feminism era men who wanted custody could be pretty
>sure they'd get it, whether or not the mother was fit or not. If this is
>true, it was probably because men had jobs outside the home and could
>better muster the resources to care for a child when child support was not
>a standard award.
>
>John
>

>>Thank you for your input. I think you have raised some very valid and
>>important issues. Although the American court system could be viewed as an
>>old boy's club, it still usually rules in favor of motherhood in
>>custody/visitation/support matters. Perhaps that is in part because
>>America's natal chart has a Sun in Cancer?
>>
>>Respectfully,
>>
>>Terri
>
******************************************************************************

"I'll find you in the morning sun,
and when the night is new...
I'll be looking at the moon,
but I'll be seeing you... "

Irving Kahal - Sammy Fain, copyright 1938

******************************************************************************

Thread:	Why Pay when you can get it on-line free ?
From:	"Paul O. Hewit" <paulhewit@cyberlink.bc.ca>	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:01:06 -0600 (MDT)

Dear Carol,

THIS ONE required a response.

Cheers, Paul

At 02:38 PM 9/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Ms. Wiggers,
>
>As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
>depth of her professionalism, I have but one question to ask. If you
>value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
>place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
>entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
>? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
>8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?
>
>I am angered at people like you, for you show no respect to the
>persons responsible for setting the oracles free for all men & women
>to use and learn from.
>
>There is NO PRICE for spiritual knowledge, except for the karma you
>must pay at the end of your journey. So know this: as you sit here
>and gain monetarily in this temporal zone, your debt is rising higher
>and higher as time closes the distance of your earthly journey.
>

To quote Hewit's First Rule of Human Interaction:
"Words spoken/written with anger or with emotion are an unconsciously spoken
Self Description"

Whoever you are - you have a problem - and the problem isn't Carol Wiggers
or anyone else making a living from decades of work developing a skill.
You'd better take another look at the "mote in your own eye" before sending
badly written, pontificating letters to people you do not know.

Keep in mind your letter is just you describing you. If your own spiritual
debts are "rising higher and higher" then you definitely have some work to
do - and you can start by using your own anger to take a good look at
yourself in the mirror.

Thread:	Why PAY when you can get it on line???
From:	maieutica@tassie.net.au	Date:	Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:23:26 +1000

Hey, Will Morris - I did NOT write this tirad to the list. I replied
(unfortunately have deleted both my reply and this appauling note below
which came in via the list) and changed the subject from "Why PAY when you
can get it on line" to "Why PRAY when you can get it on line". I'm the
most unlikely person to write such gobbledygook.

When I received this so called christian tirad message there was no
signature - hence I addressed mine to "Dear No Name"

Just had to clear this up - FAST!

sincerely

Christine Stribley
maieutica@tassie.net.au
In a message dated 97-09-22 23:08:54 EDT, maieutica@tassie.net.au writes:

<< >Dear Ms. Wiggers,
>
>As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
>depth of her professionalism, I have but one question to ask. If you
>value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
>place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
>entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
>? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
>8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?
>
>I am angered at people like you, for you show no respect to the
>persons responsible for setting the oracles free for all men & women
>to use and learn from.
>
>There is NO PRICE for spiritual knowledge, except for the karma you
>must pay at the end of your journey. So know this: as you sit here
>and gain monetarily in this temporal zone, your debt is rising higher
>and higher as time closes the distance of your earthly journey. >>

Wow!!!

1. Off list topics. Leave!
2. Clearly defined fee for service is far more honest and reasonable than the
hours of service and amounts of money that large spiritual oragnizations
require from members with a veneer of "free".
3. While you're at it, since psychotherapists take the place of priests at
confession for a large part of our culture, they should provide from the
goodness of heart as well.
4. Get real. There is a home a business and family to run. There is no
superstructure of the church to provide for astrologers.

Please excuse my tone......List Keeper delete if you feel this is
innappropriate.

Sincerely,

Will Morris

Thread:	4th/10th: response to Michael
From:	vesper@execpc.com	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:08:59 -0500 (CDT)

>Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:41:51
>To: Paula & John <jhl3@zebra.net>
>From: vesper@execpc.com
>Subject: Re: 4th/10th: response to Michael
>
>At 11:17 PM 9/22/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Yeah, yeah, yeah. "Deadbeat Dads." There's a new one. I hear the same
>>thing from my ex, in spite of the fact that I'm never even late with child
>>support.
>
>[snipped]
>
>>Motherhood may have media rhetoric on its side. . . but it's no triviality
>>that mythologies of the world cast the mother as both creator _and_
>>destroyer. Deadbeat Dads indeed. As though mere money defines a person.
>>What's amazing is that Dads are labeled Deadbeats, when a far higher
>>percentage of mothers fail to pay child support than fathers. Figure that
>>one out.
>>
>>John
>
>John,
>
>Thank you for your input. I think you have raised some very valid and
important issues. Although the American court system could be viewed as an
old boy's club, it still usually rules in favor of motherhood in
custody/visitation/support matters. Perhaps that is in part because
America's natal chart has a Sun in Cancer?
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Terri
>
******************************************************************************

"I'll find you in the morning sun,
and when the night is new...
I'll be looking at the moon,
but I'll be seeing you... "

Irving Kahal - Sammy Fain, copyright 1938

******************************************************************************

Thread:	Paying/Praying/Proselytizing
From:	AstroMaggi@aol.com	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:25:28 -0400 (EDT)

Evidently Ms. Noel is being financially supported by her faith community as a
missionary in her efforts to spread the love, light and the Peace of Christ
throughout the internet. Let's hope her Conversion Oversight Committee does
not grow weary counting her many converts. No! Wait! I'll bet she is so
highly developed spiritually, she is a Breathatarian and survives only on
(hot) air! But pity us poor working traditional astrologers, caught between
religious fundamentalists on both sides! Perhaps we can just duck and they'd
just sling their verbal arrows at one another. If this contest were ever to
take place, I'd have to root for the Baptists: at least they use their real
names.

Maggie

Thread:	Job search question
From:	aikido@juno.com (Sue Miller)	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:05:57 EDT

Question for those who know more than I:

A question has come to me and the wording has me uncertain about framing
the answer. The querent asks "should I go South in search of work?"
Do I use 10th House for South, as well as "work". Do I look for
Capricorn,( work), as South delineator? Or should I just look to 10th
Work and see what is there.
The wording of the question uses South as a theme., so I am not sure
how to read this.

Thank you for taking the time to assist me here.

Sue Miller
Aikido@juno.com

Thread:	Why pray(?) when you can get it on-line free?
From:	Hardaspect@aol.com	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:18:14 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-09-22 23:10:01 EDT, you write:

<< >As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
>depth of her professionalism, I have but one question to ask. If you
>value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
>place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
>entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
>? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
>8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?
>
>I am angered at people like you, for you show no respect to the
>persons responsible for setting the oracles free for all men & women
>to use and learn from.
>
>There is NO PRICE for spiritual knowledge, except for the karma you
>must pay at the end of your journey. So know this: as you sit here
>and gain monetarily in this temporal zone, your debt is rising higher
>and higher as time closes the distance of your earthly journey. >>

This is the height of ridiculous. If I spend eight hours a day for five-six
days a week helping people to make decisions about life AT THEIR REQUEST, I
am using time in my life when I could be doing something for myself.
Therefore, there must be a fee for the use of my time. Otherwise, how does
one make a living? What costs little is worth little.

Basil Fearrington

Thread:	The querent as seller
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:05:16 +0100

Sorry, Jonathan, I original sent my reply to the following straight to you
by mistake. It's this damned business of pressing the reply button and your
post together with your personal e-mail in the "from" slot re-appearing in
the "to" slot on my reply frame. Sometimes I forget to delete it and
replace it with "william_lilly@halcyon.com" before I press the "send"
button. Anyway ......

In her book "Simplified Horary Astrology" Ivy Goldstein-Jacobsen writes:
(p214) "Take the 1st house for the querent who wants to buy or sell, and the
7th house for the other person in the transaction ..."

(And never, never, never give the 1st house to anyone but the "Querent" in
the matter - particularly if you are taking the QHP course ...)

In other words, the 1st rules the Qurent whether he/she be buyer or seller
and you must interpret the significators accordingly. Eg the 4th from the
1st is the property for sale belonging to the Querent if the Querent is the
seller in the transaction.

Regards,

Pat.

>Opinions sought on this old favourite:
>
>Where the querent is the purchaser (of, for example, a house) the
>application of the significators of the first and seventh or first and
>fourth seem to describe the process taking place (coming together of two
>entities) but where the question is about a sale is it still the application
>of these two significators which denotes success even though, symbollically,
>they are parting company?
>
>I look forward to receiving your collective thoughts.
>
>All the best,
>Jonathon

Thread:	The querent as seller
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Maggy Whitehouse/Jonathon Clark)	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:17:19 -0700 (PDT)

>Dear Pat,

>In her book "Simpllified Horary Astrology" Ivy Goldstein-Jacobsen writes:
>(p214) "Take the 1st house for the querent who wants to buy or sell, and the
>7th house for the other person in the transaction..."
>
>(And never, never, never give the lst house to anyone but the "Querent" in
>the matter - particularly if you are taking the QHP course....)

Sorry, I may not have been clear enough in my original posting. I'm not
disputing that the querent is ever anything other than the first. Rather, I
ma trying to drive at what may be a contradiction if the querent is the
seller and perfection is to be signified by the coming together of two
planets - this doesn't seem, symbolically, to represent what is happening.

Cheers,
Jonathon

>
>In other words, the 1st rules the Querent whether he/she be buyer or seller
>and you must interpret the significators accordingly. Eg the 4th from the
>1st is the property for sale belonging to the Querent if the Querent is the
>seller in the transaction.
>
>Regards,
>
>Pat.
>
>>Opinions sought on this old favourite:
>>
>>Where the querent is the purchaser (of, for example, a house) the
>>application of the significators of the first and seventh or first and
>>fourth seem to describe the process taking place (coming together of two
>>entities) but where the question is about a sale is it still the application
>>of these two significators which denotes success even though, symbollically,
>>they are parting company?
>>
>>I look forward to receiving your collective thoughts.
>>
>>All the best,
>>Jonathon
>>Visit the Tree of Life website at:
>>http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife
>>
>>
>
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	Why Pay when you can get it on-line free ?
From:	Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com>	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:10:23 -0400

Carol,

You do seem to atract them lately don't you? (Actually I get them myself
from time to time but they go straight to the delete button.) I had an
email the other day from this guy telling me that my website might be
pretty but it's completely impractical and therefore useless, and why don't
I seek the advice of a professional web designer who would know what they
were doing. I thought about responding and telling him that he had free
choice, and if he didn't like the site that was making me an old woman
before my time, why doesn't he just not visit it? But then I figured that
one second of my time wasted on stating the obvious to this man was more
than he deserved, so I just 'deleted' him - best thing you can do.
You know that the only people who get motivated to fill their time writing
discouraging and critical comments like this are only ever those that are
inflamed with jealousy. Hey, it's their problem not yours!!

>
>Dear Ms. Wiggers,

>As a professional astrologer, which is not certified,

-- (she means 'who' of course, and the rest of the letter suggests that
she really does need certifying, but that has a different meaning over here
in the UK)

>but knows the depth of her professionalism,

-- her professionalism is immediately obvious, don't you think?

> I have but one question to ask.

-- Real question should read: "how come you are getting a lot of respect
and I'm not? I know you break your back on this stuff but that's not the
issue, and it's not that I want success, because I don't, because I'm
certainly I'm not prepared to break my back -- I just want my karma to be
your karma, -- I want you to be bitter and unknown like I am"

Of course, this spiritually enlightened person hasn't yet read all the
teachings of Christ -- all that 'man know yourself' stuff, and so the
question is translated into:

> If you value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?

-- ["when I can't?"]

>I am angered at people like you,

-- "and so full of the teachings of Christ that I'm unable to turn the
other cheek, or suppress my anger!!!
The only way that I can restore my inner harmony is to insult you and try
to make you feel worthless"

> for you show no respect to the persons

-- Oh blah de blah de blah..........

Carol, I long since realised that people judge others according to their
own standards. Whenever someone says something nasty about somebody else,
it's revealing more about the person who concieves the thought than the one
being insulted.

Forget this and laugh it off - it's nothing. People appreciate you more
than you'll ever realise.

Take care of yourself

Love Deb

Thread:	Why Pay when you can get it on-line free ?
From:	jeanneg@icon.net (Jeanne Garner)	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:05:22 -0500

Dear Ms. Noel,

You said:

>As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
>depth of her professionalism, I have but one question to ask. If you
>value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
>place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
>entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
>? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
>8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?
>
>I am angered at people like you, for you show no respect to the
>persons responsible for setting the oracles free for all men & women
>to use and learn from.
>
>There is NO PRICE for spiritual knowledge, except for the karma you
>must pay at the end of your journey. So know this: as you sit here
>and gain monetarily in this temporal zone, your debt is rising higher
>and higher as time closes the distance of your earthly journey.

>From the annals of Christianity--"Judge not, lest ye be judged." If you
don't feel that this teaching applies to you, then I suppose you ought to
thank everyone on this mailing list for giving you something to do during
your morning prayers. I know I keep the local Baptist churches fairly well
occupied, what with being an astrologer, Reiki teacher, and a student of the
miraculous. :)

No doubt you occasionally judge yourself as harshly as you judge others
(that's usually the case). Take it easier on yourself and everyone. It's a
loving Universe, not a vindictive one.

Jeanne
==-* My stars!

Thread:	A Christian Response
From:	Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:52:48 -0400

At 02:38 PM 9/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Ms. Wiggers,

I can't answer for Ms. Wiggers, but I can answer for me.
>
>As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
>depth of her professionalism, I have but one question to ask. If you
>value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
>place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
>entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
>? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
>8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?

I doubt that you are a professional astrologer, rather a dreamer on an
independent income. Ms. Wiggers has every "right" to market her knowledge
and expertise and derive the appropriate income for doing so. Your personal
attack on Ms. Wiggers does not lead one to believe you are Christian either.
>
>I am angered at people like you, for you show no respect to the
>persons responsible for setting the oracles free for all men & women
>to use and learn from.

Some observations:

My experience with people who devote their limited intellects to "spiritual
oracles" is that "spiritual" is a ready excuse for an oracle that consists of
sometimes-right, most-times-wrong, guesswork.

It is not up to you, or anyone else, to determine what's moral and what
isn't. Those questions, for Christians, are settled by Biblical teachings,
not your moralistic meanderings into bastardized metaphysics. The persons
responsible for doing as you suggest are also the persons responsible for
perverting astrology beyond all recognition.
>
>There is NO PRICE for spiritual knowledge, except for the karma you
>must pay at the end of your journey. So know this: as you sit here
>and gain monetarily in this temporal zone, your debt is rising higher
>and higher as time closes the distance of your earthly journey.

And what "karma" will you accumulate for your scurrulous defamation of Ms.
Wiggers? I doubt you even know what "karma" is. For a full explanation of
"karma", please forward $50 US cash (your "karmic" debt for my services)
and I will be happy to explain it to you. :)

Warm Regards,

Rev. Frank Ernest DD

Thread:	Re[2]: 4th/10th
From:	Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:48:49 -0400

At 11:07 AM 9/22/97 gmt, you wrote:
> Hi, everyone,
[snip]
> Leaving that aside, in the context of the discussion of 4th-10th
> rulership of parents, might it not be instructive to see what actually
> works in practice nowadays ? I personally find that 4th house does
> very well for home and Mum, and tenth house for career and Dad. That's
> what works for me, but I am not pretending that it is therefore
> "right" What do the rest of you find in your ordinary day to day
> practice ? You can see the Dr Johnson-like pragmatic approach
> considerably appeals to me......
>
> Let's hear what you all think.
>
> Nicholas

Dear Nicholas,

I suspect that the apparent 4th-10th parenting dichotomy is more a result
of sexual politics than nature. My experience is that the 4th describes
father generally and the 10th describes mother generally. Using your
experience, one might encounter a difficulty using 10th for career and Dad
in a household where Mum has the career and Dad stays home with the
children, for instance. I suspect further that the home-career distinction
is a misleading one.

My point is that the 4th-10th parent axis is determined by what goes on in
nature, not what is superficial and socially trendy at the moment. I submit
that the association of Dad and career 10th is misleading. The 10th is
*your* professional standing, not your father's. The 4th is *your* home and
foundations, not your mother's.

For your consideration.

Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread:	Why pray(?) when you can get it on-line free?
From:	WMorris116@aol.com	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:23:59 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-09-22 23:08:54 EDT, maieutica@tassie.net.au writes:

<< >Dear Ms. Wiggers,
>
>As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
>depth of her professionalism, I have but one question to ask. If you
>value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
>place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
>entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
>? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
>8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?
>
>I am angered at people like you, for you show no respect to the
>persons responsible for setting the oracles free for all men & women
>to use and learn from.
>
>There is NO PRICE for spiritual knowledge, except for the karma you
>must pay at the end of your journey. So know this: as you sit here
>and gain monetarily in this temporal zone, your debt is rising higher
>and higher as time closes the distance of your earthly journey. >>

Wow!!!

1. Off list topics. Leave!
2. Clearly defined fee for service is far more honest and reasonable than the
hours of service and amounts of money that large spiritual oragnizations
require from members with a veneer of "free".
3. While you're at it, since psychotherapists take the place of priests at
confession for a large part of our culture, they should provide from the
goodness of heart as well.
4. Get real. There is a home a business and family to run. There is no
superstructure of the church to provide for astrologers.

Please excuse my tone......List Keeper delete if you feel this is
innappropriate.

Sincerely,

Will Morris

Thread:	Why pray(?) when you can get it on-line free?
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:41:37 +0100

>
>
> At 02:38 PM 22/09/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>Dear Ms. Wiggers,
>>
>>As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
>>depth of her professionalism, I have but one question to ask. If you
>>value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
>>place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
>>entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
>>? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
>>8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?
>>

Well, now, I seem to remember a very respected person from long ago called
Jesus O'Nazareth, who made a point of saying that "a workman was worthy of
his hire". Astrology is a learned skill which leads to the provision of a
(hopefully) competent service so I guess we could call ourselves workmen
(and women, of course) ....

Pat.

Thread:	Re[2]: 4th/10th
From:	Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au>	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:54:24

Dear Listers,

In practice I find that these days you can't generalise on the ruler of the
parents. I generally find that as most couples began to share the child
rearing the houses became interchangeable. I look at the signs and planets
in the houses and ask about the parents sun signs. This usually points out
which parent in which house.

Love from over here,
Miriam
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.

Thread:	Your Letter to Carol Wiggers
From:	Joanne Greig <astrea@actrix.co.at>	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:08:18 +0200

Looks like Ms. Noel is trying to drum up business by attracting attention
to herself - denigrating Ms. Wiggers is a very bad way of doing it though,

chhers, Joanne

At 20:23 22-09-97 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Ms. Noel:
>
>I am not sure why you singled out Ms. Wiggers for your remarks. I confess I
>am
>stunned that a person who professes the spiritual teachings of Christ and of
>
>other avatars would take it upon herself to send such a threatening letter
>to
>Ms. Wiggers. I can only say that your remarks are terribly uninformed,
>naive,
>and witlessly hurtful. As I have studied the teachings of Christ, I have
>come to realize that HE would never deliver such attacks upon human beings.
>As his lesson was tolerance,
>compassion and mercy, I must confess confusion as to your understanding of
>what
>walking in the path of the Lord actually means to you.
>
>Ms. Wiggers needs no justification nor any defense for her lifelong calling
>to the
>celestial science. Therefore, I will not lower Ms. Wiggers' integrity by
>pretending
>that I am qualified to do so. My letter to you merely outlines my
>perplexity at how
>you seem to place yourself in the position of a sanctified jurist. I do
>not
>believe you qualify for that role.
>
>Peace.
>
>
>
>Megan J. Noel wrote:
>
>> Dear Ms. Wiggers,
>>
>> As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
>> depth of her professionalism, I have but one question to ask. If you
>> value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
>> place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
>> entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
>> ? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
>> 8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?
>>
>> I am angered at people like you, for you show no respect to the
>> persons responsible for setting the oracles free for all men & women
>> to use and learn from.
>>
>> There is NO PRICE for spiritual knowledge, except for the karma you
>> must pay at the end of your journey. So know this: as you sit here
>> and gain monetarily in this temporal zone, your debt is rising higher
>> and higher as time closes the distance of your earthly journey.
>
>
>
>--
>Best Wishes from Your StarGazer,
>
>StarCats
>
>For information on how
>to set an appointment with
>me for your chart reading,
>e-mail me and I will send
>you my FAQ sheet!
>
>
>Attachment Converted: "c:\joanne\eudora\attach\vcard.vcf"
>

Thread:	4th/10th: response to Michael
From:	Paula & John <jhl3@zebra.net>	Date:	Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:17:01 -0500

Yeah, yeah, yeah. "Deadbeat Dads." There's a new one. I hear the same
thing from my ex, in spite of the fact that I'm never even late with child
support.

Astrologically, this has been a very bad year for my ex (heavily afflicted
5th), though, which perhaps is why it has been so easy for my attorney to
wipe the floor with her. _She's_ the one who seems not to care about the
emotional harm she's doing to our daughter. Moon squares Saturn
(5th-ruler) in her natal chart--hardly a good beginning. The only
beneficial aspect to Saturn is from the Sun, (-10 by Lilly) in the 12th.
This helps explain at least partially, I suppose, why she felt justified in
hiding my kid from me for three months, ignoring my court-ordered
visitation requests, badmouthing me to my daughter (who asks me repeatedly
why her mother "makes" me fight with her--a conclusion she arrived at, I
think, because I don't fight with her in front of her, she simply launches
into venomous monologues), and so forth. As soon as Jupiter leaves her 5th
house iin a year-and-a half, I'm hauling her back into court and suing for
custody, and I'll win; she's continued to break the new court order, the
child's law guardian is fed up with her, and she still has no idea of the
forces rallied against her (Neptune in the 1st?).

Motherhood may have media rhetoric on its side. . . but it's no triviality
that mythologies of the world cast the mother as both creator _and_
destroyer. Deadbeat Dads indeed. As though mere money defines a person.
What's amazing is that Dads are labeled Deadbeats, when a far higher
percentage of mothers fail to pay child support than fathers. Figure that
one out.

John

>Yo, Michael -
>
>Hold it right there...you haven't met my ex husband or other deadbeat
>dads...I've been involved in a divorce/custody battle for over three
>years in Southern California, and when I left the ex I thought he, like
>me, would keep our small one out of the divorce battle. Nope. He used and
>continues to use her as a pawn, causing all sorts of trouble with child
>support, Social Services, Juvenile Court, family law court, appeals court
>- at last count, eight or nine courthouses in two counties for all the
>divorce-related issues. Please consider the issues of deadbeat dads (he
>owes me over $9 grand based on the judge's estimation of his earnings,
>being self-employed, he falsified his records) and not-quite-right-in-the
>head dads (that's him, too). Okay? I'm sick to death of courts and
>divorce and all that crap but he has inflicted emotional abuse on our
>daughter which should never have happened in the first place, and it's my
>(willing) duty as her mom to protect her and help her work these issues
>out. She's only five now.
>
>Thanks for listening to the other side of the coin.
>
>Sue
>
>Sue Fensalir
>Fensalir Astrology
>s.fensalir@juno.com
>

=============================================
"Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the
argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

William Pitt
-----------------
PGP Public key available upon request
=============================================

Thread:	Why Pay when you can get it on-line free ?
From:	Agnes Moscrip <anyes@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:37:12 -0400

Your tirade is a testimony to your so called professionalism!
If you don't like this list, why are you reading it?

Anyes

Thread:	Your Letter to Carol Wiggers
From:	"Claudia D. Dikinis" <starcats@earthlink.net>	Date:	Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:23:59 -0700

X-PMFLAGS: 573046912 0

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Dear Ms. Noel:

I am not sure why you singled out Ms. Wiggers for your remarks. I confess I
am
stunned that a person who professes the spiritual teachings of Christ and of

other avatars would take it upon herself to send such a threatening letter
to
Ms. Wiggers. I can only say that your remarks are terribly uninformed,
naive,
and witlessly hurtful. As I have studied the teachings of Christ, I have
come to realize that HE would never deliver such attacks upon human beings.
As his lesson was tolerance,
compassion and mercy, I must confess confusion as to your understanding of
what
walking in the path of the Lord actually means to you.

Ms. Wiggers needs no justification nor any defense for her lifelong calling
to the
celestial science. Therefore, I will not lower Ms. Wiggers' integrity by
pretending
that I am qualified to do so. My letter to you merely outlines my
perplexity at how
you seem to place yourself in the position of a sanctified jurist. I do
not
believe you qualify for that role.

Peace.

Megan J. Noel wrote:

> Dear Ms. Wiggers,
>
> As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
> depth of her professionalism, I have but one question to ask. If you
> value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
> place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
> entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
> ? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
> 8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?
>
> I am angered at people like you, for you show no respect to the
> persons responsible for setting the oracles free for all men & women
> to use and learn from.
>
> There is NO PRICE for spiritual knowledge, except for the karma you
> must pay at the end of your journey. So know this: as you sit here
> and gain monetarily in this temporal zone, your debt is rising higher
> and higher as time closes the distance of your earthly journey.

--
Best Wishes from Your StarGazer,

StarCats

For information on how
to set an appointment with
me for your chart reading,
e-mail me and I will send
you my FAQ sheet!

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Thread:	Why pray(?) when you can get it on-line free?
From:	maieutica@tassie.net.au	Date:	Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:53:18 +1000

At 02:38 PM 22/09/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Ms. Wiggers,
>
>As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
>depth of her professionalism, I have but one question to ask. If you
>value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
>place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
>entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
>? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
>8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?
>
>I am angered at people like you, for you show no respect to the
>persons responsible for setting the oracles free for all men & women
>to use and learn from.
>
>There is NO PRICE for spiritual knowledge, except for the karma you
>must pay at the end of your journey. So know this: as you sit here
>and gain monetarily in this temporal zone, your debt is rising higher
>and higher as time closes the distance of your earthly journey.

Dear No Name

I feel your remarks are somewhat offensive. I have been enjoying this list
for sometime and find it a terrific learning tool.

If you're prepared to publish and offer wonderful books on astrology for
*free* please go ahead. And BTW receiving a chart(or oracle) in cyberspace
can
hardly be compared to a personal consultation.

Perhaps you're angry at not receiving the respect you feel you deserve?

Lighten up.
Christine

Thread:	4th/10th: response to Michael
From:	s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson)	Date:	Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:57:00 -0700

On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:16:26 pdt siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan)
writes:
>Julienne.
>
>
>On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:25:54 -0300 Julienne
><zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>At 04:21 AM 9/16/97 +0000, Diana K. Rosenberg wrote:
>>>Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:
>>>
>Angela Reeve:
>>>When the women's movement really took hold in the 1970's, I thought
>a
>>>lot about why men were so keen to keep women away from power, and
>>came to
>>the conclusion that women are innately powerful (they are the first
>>controlling power in a child's life), while men have somehow to reach
>
>>for
>>power to prove themselves.
>
>Julienne:
>>Isn't a large chunk of this because women take the responsibility for
>
>>the
>>children, while men eschew it? One might say women have
>responsibility
>>thrust on them because of the abdication
>>and avoidance of the men.
>
>Michael:
>In California (40,000,000 pop.) in CONTESTED custody decisions; women
>get awarded 90 percent custody 90 percent of the time. If the courts
>are 90% against men in their decisions in these matters why on earth
>would another single sane man ever contest custody? Most walk away
>with bread and bus fare anyway. The men never abdicated, they simply
>had their spirits snapped by a generation of bad law. This curiously
>happened concurrently with the election/approval of judges here in
>California.
>
> Because women are stronger, smarter, and they don't play fair when it
>comes to THEIR children.

Yo, Michael -

Hold it right there...you haven't met my ex husband or other deadbeat
dads...I've been involved in a divorce/custody battle for over three
years in Southern California, and when I left the ex I thought he, like
me, would keep our small one out of the divorce battle. Nope. He used and
continues to use her as a pawn, causing all sorts of trouble with child
support, Social Services, Juvenile Court, family law court, appeals court
- at last count, eight or nine courthouses in two counties for all the
divorce-related issues. Please consider the issues of deadbeat dads (he
owes me over $9 grand based on the judge's estimation of his earnings,
being self-employed, he falsified his records) and not-quite-right-in-the
head dads (that's him, too). Okay? I'm sick to death of courts and
divorce and all that crap but he has inflicted emotional abuse on our
daughter which should never have happened in the first place, and it's my
(willing) duty as her mom to protect her and help her work these issues
out. She's only five now.

Thanks for listening to the other side of the coin.

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com

Thread:	Why Pay when you can get it on-line free ?
From:	"Megan J. Noel" <"iclea@bga.com"@bga.com>	Date:	Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:38:07 -0400

Dear Ms. Wiggers,

As a professional astrologer, which is not certified, but knows the
depth of her professionalism, I have but one question to ask. If you
value the spiritual teachings of Christ, how is it that you can
place a monetary value on oracles that were directed by such higher
entities - to be used as but a tool in the quest for spiritual direction
? What gives you the right to package them up like some dime-store
8-ball, and mass distribute them on this medium ?

I am angered at people like you, for you show no respect to the
persons responsible for setting the oracles free for all men & women
to use and learn from.

There is NO PRICE for spiritual knowledge, except for the karma you
must pay at the end of your journey. So know this: as you sit here
and gain monetarily in this temporal zone, your debt is rising higher
and higher as time closes the distance of your earthly journey.

Thread:	The querent as seller
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Mon, 22 Sep 1997 06:06:43 -0700

Opinions sought on this old favourite:

Where the querent is the purchaser (of, for example, a house) the
application of the significators of the first and seventh or first and
fourth seem to describe the process taking place (coming together of two
entities) but where the question is about a sale is it still the application
of these two significators which denotes success even though, symbollically,
they are parting company?

I look forward to receiving your collective thoughts.

All the best,
Jonathon
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	Astronomy
From:	"Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>	Date:	Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:14:58 +7

you wrote
> Hi Carol,
>
> Thanks for your suggestion. I contacted Fowlers and they told me it was
> out of print as far as they were concerned. My 'book person' looked at
> Barnes & Noble list and couldn't find it there.
>
> Are you able to obtain a copy for me? Alternatively, is there any way I can
> follow it up for myself?
>
Dear Angela,
Let me check for you, I have to go there tonight and I will see if
they have a copy. It's possible that only individual stores carry
it. It's probably easier if I pick you up a copy and drop it in the
mail, if this is OK with you.
Love & Light
Carol
==========================
Carol A. Wiggers,D.M.S.Astrol.
JustUs & Associates Publishing
1420 NW Gilman Blvd. Suite #2154
Issaquah, WA 98027-7001
phone (206)391-8371 fax(206)392-1919
Visit our new secure shopping mall at
http://www.horary.com
Powered by Make-A-Store at http://www.make-a-store.com
cwiggers@halcyon.com

Thread:	Re[2]: 4th/10th
From:	"Nicholas Grier" <n.grier@napier.ac.uk>	Date:	Mon, 22 Sep 97 11:07:09 gmt

Hi, everyone,
It has been most interesting seeing what a well-read bunch of
astrologers we all are, especially as Chaucer knew a great feal about
astrology. His book "Troilus and Criseyde" is stuffed with
astrological references, and there are great chunks dedicated to the
discussion of free will. Chaucer also wrote a book called "A treatise
on the astrolabe" and was well versed in astrological matters.

Leaving that aside, in the context of the discussion of 4th-10th
rulership of parents, might it not be instructive to see what actually
works in practice nowadays ? I personally find that 4th house does
very well for home and Mum, and tenth house for career and Dad. That's
what works for me, but I am not pretending that it is therefore
"right" What do the rest of you find in your ordinary day to day
practice ? You can see the Dr Johnson-like pragmatic approach
considerably appeals to me......

Let's hear what you all think.

Nicholas

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: 4th/10th
Author: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> at internet-gateway
Date: 22/09/97 07:34

>Message was resent -- Original recipients were:
To:
traditional@halcyon.com---------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
Weren't inheritances and family ownerships more likely to go by father than
mother? The bride came with a dowry, but wasn't that about it in most
cases, while the sons would get the family's land or business?

If so, then the "family" you belonged to was your father's family rather
than your mother's family. Fourth might have been more generally "family
and heritage and clan" which was essentially your father's family and
heritage and clan, and then tenth the seventh of the family, the chosen
spouse, who was brought into the father's family.

It will in a sense represent the things your father wants for you, the
things he is attracted to to "fill in the blanks." A good mother, to raise
you well and with good discipline and values, and a good career as a result.

-JoAnne

Thread:	Astronomy
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com>	Date:	Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:10:05 EDT

Hi Carol,

re The Astrologer's Astronomical Handbook by Jeff Mayo

Thanks for your suggestion. I contacted Fowlers and they told me it was
out of print as far as they were concerned. My 'book person' looked at
Barnes & Noble list and couldn't find it there.

Are you able to obtain a copy for me? Alternatively, is there any way I can
follow it up for myself?

Thanks for your help

Angela

Thread:	4th/10th
From:	jonn@mailhost.dircon.co.uk	Date:	Mon, 22 Sep 97 06:39:14 GMT

Hi Julienne
Not quite clear what point you're making here. The issue concerned the arguments
rather than the attitudes (oh dear, typical man, I'm already working with the
scholar in his rational analysis rather than the empty headed Wyf of Bath with her
empty headed sentimentality.) Chaucer invites our sympathy for the Wyf and pesents
a convincing case. Until the scholar gives us the wider and more rational picture.
He stands for learning, culture and civilization while the Wyf, for all her
allure, has nothing to recommend herself beyond her gender (now that's real sexism
for you). Left to her, life would be lived on a purely animal level; she is
revealed as life at its lowest expression. I think I've heard Germaine Greer say
more or less the same thing - that a world run by women would be more caring and
sharing (and I'm not sure I agree with that) but that there wouldn't be any
culture or civilization beyond that immediately relevant to domesticity. It
happens that we've had a couple of decades of (what a well known magazine here in
England calls) loony feminism which has been totally uninformed by the wider
picture (not unlike the loony cultural revolution in China, or Macarthyism &c), as
I said, the Scholar's Tale is not read at exam level at present, but it looks as
if a bit of balance is about to assert itself. This is a bit off the horary track,
sorry everyone.

> So, Jon...these attitudes go on and on. Roughly they describe the ability
> of women to wrap men around their little fingers. Actually - a reversal of
> actual social conditions, isn't it? (Rhetorical question...:)
>
> And of course, the Wyf of Bath was a construct of a man - Chaucer - Bless
> his soul - so we can't take her words as those actually thought by a woman.
>
> Julienne
>
>
>

Thread:	4th/10th
From:	JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net>	Date:	Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:29:23 -0400 (EDT)

Weren't inheritances and family ownerships more likely to go by father than
mother? The bride came with a dowry, but wasn't that about it in most
cases, while the sons would get the family's land or business?

If so, then the "family" you belonged to was your father's family rather
than your mother's family. Fourth might have been more generally "family
and heritage and clan" which was essentially your father's family and
heritage and clan, and then tenth the seventh of the family, the chosen
spouse, who was brought into the father's family.

It will in a sense represent the things your father wants for you, the
things he is attracted to to "fill in the blanks." A good mother, to raise
you well and with good discipline and values, and a good career as a result.

-JoAnne

Thread:	Re: Ruler of essential oils used in aromatherapy?
From:	CAFretts@aol.com	Date:	Sat, 20 Sep 1997 21:09:25 -0400 (EDT)

Thanks Diana. How could I not have mentioned Lee's rulership book when I've
just begun studying with her! Sorry Lee!

Carole

Thread:	Eruption
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:32:33 -0400

Dear folks,
I know it's not horary, but in case anyone is interested, the major blow
of the ongoing eruption of Soufriere Hills volcano, Montserrat, West
Indies, was on June 25, 1997 from 12:55 to 13:20 local time (+4).
According to the Bulletin of the Global Volcanism Network, Vol 22 # 6,
June '97, pyroclastic flows and associated surge clouds damaged or
destroyed 100-150 houses in 8 villages; 10 dead, 19 missing, presumed
dead, 5 suffered serious burns. Soufriere Hills is 16.72 N, 62.18 W.
DKR

Thread:	QEII Coronation data
From:	jonn@dircon.co.uk	Date:	Sat, 20 Sep 97 18:47:25 GMT

Is this fact or gossip? I'd triple check if it's in Kitty Kelley

--
Jon

the Sage of Walthamstow speaks
-----------------------------Reply Separator---------------------------------
On 18/09/97 21:45, in message <19970918.214512.3574.2.s.fensalir@juno.com>, Sue
Jorgenson <s.fensalir@juno.com> wrote:

> Hi, Lillies:
>
> For those of you delving into the House of Windsor, I just got Kitty
> Kelley's _The Royals_ and found out the time of the Queen's coronation,
> properly formalizing her reign:
>
>
> Tuesday, June 2, 1953 12:30 p.m. - it started at 10:30 a.m. but she was
> crowned at 12:30 p.m. - according to timing (this included anointing with
> the holy oil and the Archbishop of Canterbury placing the crown upon her
> head).
>
>
> Interestingly, BBC suggested that it be televised but the courtiers and
> nabobs surrounding her said "sacrilege! Unthinkable!"...when the issue
> was set forth to her, she started asking technical questions...she wanted
> it to be televised...: "I have to be seen to be believed." Spoken like
> a true Taurean! And the sun was in Gemini - haven't run off a chart yet
> - but there were Gemini and Libra planetary occupations. Good for media.
>
>
> Sue
>
> Sue Fensalir
> Fensalir Astrology
> s.fensalir@juno.com
>

Thread:	4th/10th
From:	jonn@dircon.co.uk	Date:	Sat, 20 Sep 97 18:47:21 GMT

Hi
In Chaucer; more usually called the Clerk's Tale, (but far less often found on
exam syllabi!) the one about Grisildis / Griselda. The Clerk is from Oxford and
the Wife of Bath has insulted him with her aside about the humiliation of a man of
learning from Oxford being subjugated by a woman simply because she was a woman,
not because of any achievements of hers, or because she has any learning or other
worth. But he is too well educated to enter into dispute with her and instead
tells a tale which illustrates subservience to the will of God and the
requirements of your station in life rather than greedy egos and 'I want it all'
self centredness. He has an aside at the end which makes it clear that this is
what he thinks of the Wyf's brand of feminism.
--
Jon

the Sage of Walthamstow speaks
-----------------------------Reply Separator---------------------------------
On 19/09/97 15:37, in message <3422FEB8.1F3B@xtra.co.nz>, GARTH CHIVALLE CARPENTER
<garth@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

> jonn@dircon.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > Now there's a thought. I can't imagine that Lilly would have bothered his
> head for
> > a moment with such trivia. There was certainly no such term in his day,
> nor (Whorf
> > lives!) such a concept. The debates were stated three centuries before in
> the Wyf
> > of Bath's Tale, and in the Scholar's Tale;
>
> Hi Jonn,
> Would you mind telling me the author and source of the Scholar's Tale?
> I hadn't heard of it and am interested. Thanks,
> Garth Chivalle Carpenter,
> Dept. of English,
> Victoria University of Wellington,
> New Zealand.
>
>

Thread:	4th/10th
From:	siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan)	Date:	Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:16:26 pdt

Julienne.

On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:25:54 -0300 Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>
writes:
>At 04:21 AM 9/16/97 +0000, Diana K. Rosenberg wrote:
>>Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:
>>
Angela Reeve:
>>When the women's movement really took hold in the 1970's, I thought a
>>lot about why men were so keen to keep women away from power, and
>came to
>the conclusion that women are innately powerful (they are the first
>controlling power in a child's life), while men have somehow to reach
>for
>power to prove themselves.

Julienne:
>Isn't a large chunk of this because women take the responsibility for
>the
>children, while men eschew it? One might say women have responsibility
>thrust on them because of the abdication
>and avoidance of the men.

Michael:
In California (40,000,000 pop.) in CONTESTED custody decisions; women get
awarded 90 percent custody 90 percent of the time. If the courts are 90%
against men in their decisions in these matters why on earth would
another single sane man ever contest custody? Most walk away with bread
and bus fare anyway. The men never abdicated, they simply had their
spirits snapped by a generation of bad law. This curiously happened
concurrently with the election/approval of judges here in California.

Because women are stronger, smarter, and they don't play fair when it
comes to THEIR children.

Julienne:
Read a remarkable study yesterday
>in _Science News_ about how men still avoid domestic
>responsibilities, even when their wives have a heart attack, with
>pretty
>dire consequences for their wives.

Michael:
Not only that but think of all the additional work and responsibility the
women have to take on because they outlive their husbands due to women's
extended lifespan and are often faced with the arduous work of caring
for the poor unfortunate slobs as they slip into the grave! :)

Some comedic pundits have been so bold to suggest that the extended
lifespan of women has something to do with inheritance!

Julienne:
>However, I am a little concerned about the tortuousness of our
>attempts to
>explain Lilly's attribution of the 4th house to the father.
>Interesting
>that one person described it as giving the
>4th house to the father, as being of central importance - and
>just attributing the 10th to the mother as if by default. Could
>Lilly also have been a sexist?

Michael:
Sexism is not the first thing to come to mind, Maybe this has a
connection to the midwifery practice of having the mother on all fours
with the father's hands beneath to catch the newborn? Thinking about what
is real time here is the key to the investigation...after all these are
primary moments in the person's life!

Just wondering...:) I think we
>do have to look at such possibilities

Absolutely!

>Julienne

Thread:	Ruler of essential oils used in aromatherapy?
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Sat, 20 Sep 1997 01:26:12 -0400

CAFretts@aol.com wrote:

> Hi Neil,
>
> I think it would depend first on what the oil is being made from. In
> general, if it is being made from flowers then Venus would be the
> ruler. If
> you look to see what element the particular oil would vibrate to
> (earth, air,
> fire, water) you could begin to categorize them that way. There are
> many
> books available that give planetary rulers for plants and trees.
> You can check out Rex Bill's "The Rulership Book" for some ideas, as
> well as
> some herbal books.
>
> Carole

Dear Neil & Carole,
For this sort of thing I think Lee Lehman's "The Book of Rulerships"
(Whitford Press) is better - it's more thorough, especially on tastes,
scents, plants etc., and she gives her sources, which Bills does not.
If the sources conflict, she gives you both, or several. DKR

Thread:	4/10 House
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:27:03 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-09-18 22:18:16 EDT, you write:

<< The journey
through the subterranean houses (6th to 1st) was representative of the
journey from death to rebirth of the Sun. At the IC, the turning point,
death ends and life begins. >>

Sue,

Well said. This accords with the Chinese notion of yin and yang. The IC
represents the Sun's furthest point from high noon (MC) and is thus the
chart's darkest hour, the time when yang (masculine energy) is just again
entering the predominant field of yin energy, like the point at which a tiny
sperm is just entering a huge ovum -- another key to the paternal symbolism

Tony

Thread:	Ruler of essential oils used in aromatherapy?
From:	CAFretts@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:15:05 -0400 (EDT)

Hi Neil,

I think it would depend first on what the oil is being made from. In
general, if it is being made from flowers then Venus would be the ruler. If
you look to see what element the particular oil would vibrate to (earth, air,
fire, water) you could begin to categorize them that way. There are many
books available that give planetary rulers for plants and trees.
You can check out Rex Bill's "The Rulership Book" for some ideas, as well as
some herbal books.

Carole

Thread:	QEII Coronation data
From:	s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson)	Date:	Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:45:11 -0700

Hi, Lillies:

For those of you delving into the House of Windsor, I just got Kitty
Kelley's _The Royals_ and found out the time of the Queen's coronation,
properly formalizing her reign:

Tuesday, June 2, 1953 12:30 p.m. - it started at 10:30 a.m. but she was
crowned at 12:30 p.m. - according to timing (this included anointing with
the holy oil and the Archbishop of Canterbury placing the crown upon her
head).

Interestingly, BBC suggested that it be televised but the courtiers and
nabobs surrounding her said "sacrilege! Unthinkable!"...when the issue
was set forth to her, she started asking technical questions...she wanted
it to be televised...: "I have to be seen to be believed." Spoken like
a true Taurean! And the sun was in Gemini - haven't run off a chart yet
- but there were Gemini and Libra planetary occupations. Good for media.

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com

Thread:	4th/10th
From:	jonn@dircon.co.uk	Date:	Fri, 19 Sep 97 01:59:24 GMT

Now there's a thought. I can't imagine that Lilly would have bothered his head for
a moment with such trivia. There was certainly no such term in his day, nor (Whorf
lives!) such a concept. The debates were stated three centuries before in the Wyf
of Bath's Tale, and in the Scholar's Tale; and they haven't moved on since. I
think Lilly's attributions are based on tradition and materialist common sense, I
can't see him as some idle brained ideologue following 'theory'.

Incidentally, I have to delete a veritable horde of addressees from some of these
postings. Are people carrying on multiple conversations in loads of lists? This
must be very confusing for people. (Well, me I suppose) It can't add to the
integrity of responses though.

Could
> Lilly also have been a sexist? Just wondering...:) I think we
> do have to look at such possibilities, instead of just slavishly
> accepting Lilly.
>
> Julienne
>
>

Thread:	4th/10th
From:	kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com>	Date:	Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:13:00 -0500

Hi ya'll,
Has anyone considered that before industrialisation the father most
often worked in or around the home? (4th/10th)
Kent

Thread:	4/10 House
From:	Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk>	Date:	Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:37:23

At 06:36 15/9/1997 EDT, Angela wrote:
>
>I know Lilly ascribes the 4th house to fathers and the 10th to mothers,

>(CA p 52 & 55 respectively), but could anyone explain his reasoning on

>this? In the patriarchal society that ruled then, even more so than now,

>I would have thought the 10th house of authoritarian figures would have
been
>ascribed to the then perceived 'Head of the Family'.

Perhaps another symbol might help with the attribution of the 4th to the
father. The 4th also signifies 'tillage of the earth', from this we might
assume agriculture. So, from whatever culture you come, the 4th can
represent the seed.

One other point that might help in explaining these attributions is the
ancient one of life after death. The 8th house showed the beginning of
death, the descendant (where the sun sets) death itself. The journey
through the subterranean houses (6th to 1st) was representative of the
journey from death to rebirth of the Sun. At the IC, the turning point,
death ends and life begins. At the ascendant birth is achieved.

I don't think that it requires a feminist or sexist attitude to follow this
symbolism. If we accept the principle of active (masculine) and receptive
(feminine), the sperm is active and the ovum receptive. Whilst one can't do
without the other for reproduction to occur, hence the 4th/10th axis, the
active principle prevails. Also, the 4th is a feminine house and the 10th
masculine, so I suggest that this implies a cooperation through the idea of
father to feminine house (the masculine seed in the feminie earth), mother
to masculine house. We are still talking about plugs and sockets here, male
and female connections. It is the idea of source that needs to be grasped
and if you're going to transfer the father from the 4th to the 10th, do we
also put land, houses, etc. there too? It is the land that we stand on,
that supports us, can we put that to the 10th - over our heads? The
principle of parents/father is a part of this symbolism of basis.

Someone suggested that we should not 'slavishly follow Lilly', quite right,
but we're not. Lilly was reiterating a much older symbology. In fact, if
anyone is in any doubt about the material found in 'Christian Astrology' I
would suggest that they study the ancient authors for comparison and
derivation. Let's study and understand what we have before we are tempted
to rip the scheme apart - or turn it upside down. In my view the former is
the only way to development and evolution, whereas the latter leads to chaos.

Sincerely

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread:	4th/10th
From:	jonn@dircon.co.uk	Date:	Thu, 18 Sep 97 15:49:39 GMT

how do 'moderns' get a look into 'traditional astrology'?

--
Jon
duas tantum res anxias optat; panem et circenses
-----------------------------Reply Separator---------------------------------
On 16/09/97 20:01, in message <199709170301.XAA19562@golden.net>, Sandra
<sandee@golden.net> wrote:

> Re 4th and 10th Houses:
>
> Do people still use the fourth for fathers and 10th for mothers? I wonder,
> if it could not be reasoned another away too for moderns. The fourth being
> the natural house of moon that represents Mothers, homes, infants, embryos
> genetics, and so on is the house of the mother and the fifth being the
> natural house of the sun represents Fathers, attitude to men in general,
> success, children, pleasures, and vacations.
>
> From,
> Sandra
> "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with
> all you mind. This is the first and greatest commmandment. And the second
> is like it: Love your Neighbour as Yourself. All the Law and the Prophets
> hang on these two commandments". (Matthew 22:37-40)
> >From Sandra e-mail sandee@golden.net end
>
>

Thread:	4th/10th
From:	"bruce nelson" <v33@hotmail.com>	Date:	Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:26:17 PDT

>>Julienne wrote:
>At 04:21 AM 9/16/97 +0000, Diana K. Rosenberg wrote:
>>Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:
I know Lilly ascribes the 4th house to fathers and the 10th to
>>mothers,
>> (CA p 52 & 55 respectively), but could anyone explain his reasoning
on
>this? In the patriarchal society that ruled then, even more so than
now, I
>would have thought the 10th house of authoritarian figures would have
been
>ascribed to the then perceived 'Head of the Family'.
>
>Dear Angela,
>>I have often wondered about this myself; one possible explanation may
be
>that Lilly (and others) may have noticed that men who reach for worldly
>power & influence (esp political) tend to have powerful mothers, not
>fathers. Think of Franklin Roosevelt (powerful, domineering,
controlling
>mother, father died early); and Jimmy
>>Carter's Miz Lillian; Bill Clinton, whose father died before he was
>>born; Nixon, who constantly talked about his mother's influence,
didn't
>like his father; Lincoln, who left home early because he and his father
>hated each other - he adored both his mother (who died young) and his
>step-mother. Then there are the sons of famous powerful
>>fathers who somehow are overshadowed by them - Randolph Churchill
comes to
>mind (I have read that Randolph was extraordinarily talented and
actually
>brighter than his father, but somehow he just never came up to
>expectations). These are just a few examples off the top of my head,
and I
>know this is a bit simplistic - there are
>>probably many exceptions.
>
>This may be because mothers tend to be more involved in their
children's
>upbringing. An especially strong or interesting mother might then tend
to
>bring up especially interesting and strong children.
>
>>When the women's movement really took hold in the 1970's, I thought a
>>lot about why men were so keen to keep women away from power, and came
to
>the conclusion that women are innately powerful (they are the first
>controlling power in a child's life), while men have somehow to reach
for
>power to prove themselves.
>
>Isn't a large chunk of this because women take the responsibility for
the
>children, while men eschew it? One might say women have responsibility
>thrust on them because of the abdication
>and avoidance of the men. about how men still avoid domestic
>responsibilities, even when their wives have a heart attack, with
pretty
>dire consequences for their wives.
>
>However, I am a little concerned about the tortuousness of our attempts
to
>explain Lilly's attribution of the 4th house to the father. Interesting
>that one person described it as giving the
>4th house to the father, as being of central importance - and
>just attributing the 10th to the mother as if by default. Could
>Lilly also have been a sexist? Just wondering...:) I think we
>do have to look at such possibilities, instead of just slavishly
>accepting Lilly.
>
>Julienne
>
I may have started this thread when I asked about Diana's wreck chart
and the 4th house. There have been responses stating that the 4th house
is the End, the Final Outcome and also that it is the seed beginning,
the foundation and thus Lillys "father", and the usual supporting cudo's
for Lilly's impecable unbiased objectivity, and that of traditionalists
in general. However could it not be possible (as a follow to the above)
that Lilly and the few centuries that preceded him that we call
tradition were actually somewhat gender biased and that maybe a little
objectivity was slanted towards the masculine. Probably most charts were
even done for the men, by the men. Thus what tradition may see as the
lV / X could be biased to the masculine.
The response above about powerful men and there mothers speaks to this
for the men, but what about the women? (Julienne, you who are usually so
sweet and unreactionary , seem to have a strong reaction here to men).
Could it be that the way of the masculine is to look at the 4th as the
father, but that the feminine archetype could look at the 4th as mother.
Personally I sometimes (oh what blasphemy!) actually look at the 4th as
the mother or father depending on the gender of the client.
"The times they are a changin" for tradition and for gender outlook.
The symbol of I Ching has a dot of feminine in the masculine and vice
verse.

Bruce Nelson

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Thread:	Re - IV and X houses
From:	"Carla M. Vorsatz" <milarep@ibm.net>	Date:	Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:35:03 -0700

astrology@aurumtel.com wrote:
>
>
> Could you please explain where you got the information of Saturn being in its
> joy in the 4th house and Venus in joy in the 10th? I have not heard this
> before.

Ok, Dorian, what you heard is ok. Is the information easily available, anyhow. The issue
of houses rulerships is one of the most intricate ones in the history of Astrology. What
get things worse is that the ancients use the word "house" either for what we call signs,
or for what we call houses. But you can find this information I gave in Maninlius, as
well as in Firmicus Maternus, and, most recently in Olivia Barcley' Horary Astrology
Rediscovered, although she will not give you the whole explanation. The thing is houses
have different rulerships than signs. That's the main idea to begin to work with.

> I also think it is somewhat shaky logic to ascribe the 4th house to the father
> just because Saturn is a "masculine" planet and the 10th to the mother because
> Venus is "feminine."

It's allright to think so. Anyway that's the way you think, but not necessarylly the way
other people think. Ancients astrologers had a very straight way of thinking, much
different of our subjective, roundable way. E.g. Ptolomy ascribing the water triplicity
rulership to Mars, just because as his nature (of Mars) is fire and dry, he would have
his malefic power disminished if he was putted in water. That's not what I think, that's
what Ptolomy himself said.

Actually, as some have already pointed out, the 4th was
> the ancient house of the parents and the heritage of the person, which was
> traditionally passed through the father's side; the 10th was the mother as being
> the 7th from the 4th (father's spouse).

This is one possible way of looking at it. But it would not work for the Jews, for
instance, who consider a Jew anyone who is born from a "Jew belly". You see, the notion
of heritage as well as the notion of tradition may be tricking sometimes.

It is good to have you so interested in the matter.

Peace for all,
Carla M. Vorsatz
milarep@ibm.net

Thread:	Astronomy
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Thu, 18 Sep 1997 00:42:59 -0400

Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:

> Does anyone know of any good 'astronomy for astrology' type books?
> I would like to get to better grips with the actual movement of the
> heavens
> and especially eclipses.
>
> Thanks
>
> Angela

Dear Angela,
The one I have is "Astronomy for Astrologers" by Filbey & Filbey (John &
Peter), Aquarian Press, 1984; but I don't know if it is still
available. I have another old Aquarian Press book called "Eclipses" by
Appleby & McCann published in 1989. Again, don't know if available.
Good Luck, DKR

Thread:	Astronomy
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:07:18 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-09-17 21:09:48 EDT, you write:

<< Does anyone know of any good 'astronomy for astrology' type books? >>

A nice basic book on astronomy for the layperson is David H. Levy's
"Skywatching" from Time Life Books (a nature company guide).

Tony

Thread:	Astronomy
From:	"Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>	Date:	Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:53:32 +7

>
> << Does anyone know of any good 'astronomy for astrology' type books? >>
>
Another good book available is "The Astrologer's Astronomical
Handbook" by Jeff Mayo, published by L.N. Fowler & Co.. He was one
of my teachers many years ago and his book has been reprinted and can
be found in Barnes & Noble Bookstores.
Carol
==================================
William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
or traditional@halcyon.com
privately owned and brought to you by-
JustUs & Associates
Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
Coley, Ramsesy, Gadbury, and many more books available.
No fascimile copies, these books are all retyped and republished in modern print.
Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
horary_astrology@compuserve.com
http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall

Thread:	Ruler of essential oils used in aromatherapy?
From:	"J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix13.ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:25:37 +0000

> Anybody any ideas for the ancient and/or modern ruler of the essential oils
> used in aromatherapy? Although oils extracted from plants have been in use
> for centuries, the method for extracting essential oils from plants is a
> modern invention.
>
> Eighth house/Scorpio/Mars/Pluto - essence (concentratration) also
> healing/regeneration connection?
> Ninth/Sag/Jup - Oil as lubricant?

So: if you believe that all oils are equal in their effects
regardless of the plant extracted, then you are on the right track.
Otherwise, forget the modern technology and go with the plant
rulership for the extract. Ancient pharmacists handled herbs in a
multitude of ways: simples, whole plants, tinctures, candies, etc.,
yet there is no evidence that they changed the rulership based on the
extraction method.

---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction

Thread:	4th/10th
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:25:54 -0300

At 04:21 AM 9/16/97 +0000, Diana K. Rosenberg wrote:
>Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:
>
> I know Lilly ascribes the 4th house to fathers and the 10th to
>mothers,
> (CA p 52 & 55 respectively), but could anyone explain his reasoning on
this? In the patriarchal society that ruled then, even more so than now, I
would have thought the 10th house of authoritarian figures would have been
ascribed to the then perceived 'Head of the Family'.

Dear Angela,
>I have often wondered about this myself; one possible explanation may be
that Lilly (and others) may have noticed that men who reach for worldly
power & influence (esp political) tend to have powerful mothers, not
fathers. Think of Franklin Roosevelt (powerful, domineering, controlling
mother, father died early); and Jimmy
>Carter's Miz Lillian; Bill Clinton, whose father died before he was
>born; Nixon, who constantly talked about his mother's influence, didn't
like his father; Lincoln, who left home early because he and his father
hated each other - he adored both his mother (who died young) and his
step-mother. Then there are the sons of famous powerful
>fathers who somehow are overshadowed by them - Randolph Churchill comes to
mind (I have read that Randolph was extraordinarily talented and actually
brighter than his father, but somehow he just never came up to
expectations). These are just a few examples off the top of my head, and I
know this is a bit simplistic - there are
>probably many exceptions.

This may be because mothers tend to be more involved in their children's
upbringing. An especially strong or interesting mother might then tend to
bring up especially interesting and strong children.

>When the women's movement really took hold in the 1970's, I thought a
>lot about why men were so keen to keep women away from power, and came to
the conclusion that women are innately powerful (they are the first
controlling power in a child's life), while men have somehow to reach for
power to prove themselves.

Isn't a large chunk of this because women take the responsibility for the
children, while men eschew it? One might say women have responsibility
thrust on them because of the abdication
and avoidance of the men. Read a remarkable study yesterday
in _Science News_ about how men still avoid domestic
responsibilities, even when their wives have a heart attack, with pretty
dire consequences for their wives.

However, I am a little concerned about the tortuousness of our attempts to
explain Lilly's attribution of the 4th house to the father. Interesting
that one person described it as giving the
4th house to the father, as being of central importance - and
just attributing the 10th to the mother as if by default. Could
Lilly also have been a sexist? Just wondering...:) I think we
do have to look at such possibilities, instead of just slavishly
accepting Lilly.

Julienne

Thread:	Ruler of essential oils used in aromatherapy?
From:	nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart)	Date:	Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:14:19 +0900 (JST)

Anybody any ideas for the ancient and/or modern ruler of the essential oils
used in aromatherapy? Although oils extracted from plants have been in use
for centuries, the method for extracting essential oils from plants is a
modern invention.

Eighth house/Scorpio/Mars/Pluto - essence (concentratration) also
healing/regeneration connection?
Ninth/Sag/Jup - Oil as lubricant?

Best,

Neil

Thread:	Michael Munkasey
From:	nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart)	Date:	Wed, 17 Sep 1997 23:14:17 +0900 (JST)

Dear All

Does anyone out there in the ether have Michael Munkasey's e-mail address?

Thanks in advance,

Neil

Thread:	Re - IV and X houses
From:	astrology@aurumtel.com	Date:	Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:01:33 -0400

On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, milarep@ibm.net wrote:
>Hello Angela,
>
>The reason for Lilly ascribing the 4th house to the father and the 10th
>to the mother is because of the old rulership of the houses. The ancients
>stated that signs' and houses' rulerships were different. Lilly kept this
>as he called the used planets as in "joy" in such houses. This would give
>us Saturn ruling the 4th house and Venus ruling the 10th. As Saturn is a
>masculine planet, this house would always represent the father. The same
>way around to Venus.
>Hope this helps.
>Peace for all,
> Carla

Could you please explain where you got the information of Saturn being in its
joy in the 4th house and Venus in joy in the 10th? I have not heard this
before. As far as my information goes, Saturn is the co-significator of the 1st
house and has its joy in the 12th, and Venus is co-significator of the 5th and
also has its joy there.

I also think it is somewhat shaky logic to ascribe the 4th house to the father
just because Saturn is a "masculine" planet and the 10th to the mother because
Venus is "feminine." Actually, as some have already pointed out, the 4th was
the ancient house of the parents and the heritage of the person, which was
traditionally passed through the father's side; the 10th was the mother as being
the 7th from the 4th (father's spouse).

Dorian Greenbaum
---------------------------
- Duxbury, Massachusetts -
- astrology@aurumtel.com -
---------------------------

Thread:	Astronomy
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com>	Date:	Wed, 17 Sep 1997 05:14:25 EDT

Does anyone know of any good 'astronomy for astrology' type books?
I would like to get to better grips with the actual movement of the heavens
and especially eclipses.

Thanks

Angela

Thread:	4th/10th
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com>	Date:	Wed, 17 Sep 1997 04:43:30 EDT

Hi Diana,

Thanks for your reply. I think in modernistic terms you are absolutely right,
but in traditional terms the favour seems to be with the fact that the 4th
house links with roots and lineage. Another possible clash with traditional
-v- modern attitudes maybe. I can see the traditional reasoning, but would
also keep in mind the line of thought you express in my personal work.

Thanks again

Angela

Thread:	4th/10th
From:	Sandra <sandee@golden.net>	Date:	Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:01:41 -0400 (EDT)

Re 4th and 10th Houses:

Do people still use the fourth for fathers and 10th for mothers? I wonder,
if it could not be reasoned another away too for moderns. The fourth being
the natural house of moon that represents Mothers, homes, infants, embryos
genetics, and so on is the house of the mother and the fifth being the
natural house of the sun represents Fathers, attitude to men in general,
success, children, pleasures, and vacations.

From,
Sandra
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with
all you mind. This is the first and greatest commmandment. And the second
is like it: Love your Neighbour as Yourself. All the Law and the Prophets
hang on these two commandments". (Matthew 22:37-40)
>From Sandra e-mail sandee@golden.net end

Thread:	4/10 House
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:50:30 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-09-16 05:41:56 EDT, you write:

<< I know Lilly ascribes the 4th house to fathers and the 10th to mothers,

(CA p 52 & 55 respectively), but could anyone explain his reasoning on

this? In the patriarchal society that ruled then, even more so than now,

I would have thought the 10th house of authoritarian figures would have been

ascribed to the then perceived 'Head of the Family'.

Regards

Angela >>

Angela,

Lilly was following the ancients in ascribing the father to the 4th, which in
ancient times was called the house of the fathers (parents) -- which in a
partiarchal society chiefly meant the father. His wife, the mother, then
went to the opposite house, the 10th or 7th of the 4th. The 4th or IC is the
base of the chart, the foundation upon which the entire chart rests and
symbolically represents one's heritage and genetic foundation which, in a
patriarchy, comes down via the paternal line.

Tony

Thread:	Re - IV and X houses
From:	milarep@ibm.net	Date:	Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:20:39 -0700

Hello Angela,

The reason for Lilly ascribing the 4th house to the father and the 10th
to the mother is because of the old rulership of the houses. The ancients
stated that signs' and houses' rulerships were different. Lilly kept this
as he called the used planets as in "joy" in such houses. This would give
us Saturn ruling the 4th house and Venus ruling the 10th. As Saturn is a
masculine planet, this house would always represent the father. The same
way around to Venus.
Hope this helps.
Peace for all,
Carla

Thread:	4/10 House
From:	Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>	Date:	Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:37:18 -0400

At 06:36 AM 9/15/97 EDT, Angela Reeve wrote:
>
>I know Lilly ascribes the 4th house to fathers and the 10th to mothers,

>(CA p 52 & 55 respectively), but could anyone explain his reasoning on

>this? In the patriarchal society that ruled then, even more so than now,

>I would have thought the 10th house of authoritarian figures would have
been
>ascribed to the then perceived 'Head of the Family'.

The father of the family is usually the "breadwinner", i.e., accumulator of
family substance and resources. The mother is the source of immediate
authority. Astrologically, the father is the "root" of the family (5th of
children being second of fourth, i.e., "resources). While the mother is in
the immediate family authority 10th, she is also the primary service
provider for children, the 10th being the Sixth of Fifth.

Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread:	The Big Picture
From:	Gill Norman <history@astronet.demon.co.uk>	Date:	Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:57:15 +0100

Definitely, any one of the series of national charts, come in and out of
focus quite randomly for different events. They need not follow normal
chronology, they are wildcard with time.
E.g. In "Eclipses, Power points in time" by Appleby and McCann, the 2WW
Battle of Britain 1940 registers against the Edgar chart for the UK 973
AD! It popped up out of the blue, midst a lot of other eclipse
indicators for the rest of the war period.

The event/effect from an eclipse can occur several years later. The
eclipse degree stays time-resident and builds up its power to manifest
- triggered by later lunations and transits to a crunch.

Certain saros series have positive energy,...repeats of scientific
inventions, publications that change the world etc. See Eagle and
Lark.B.Brady.

As for buildings, who can explain how SF and LA City foundation charts
configure with current earthquakes?

In message <3.0.1.16.19970912115320.2aafccfe@mail.easynet.co.uk>, Sue
Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> writes
>I agree that the 1066 chart for England is a sensitive one and certainly
>describes the English very well. It obviously doesn't hold true for the
>Union, but as a starting point and for the monarchy it is a very good
>chart. After all, if we have the 'birth' chart for a building, does it
>matter how long it stands, the chart still holds true.
>
>Sincerely
>
>Sue
>
>At 23:47 10/9/1997 -0400, Diana Rosenberg wrote:
>>Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:
>>
>>> *** Resending note of 09/09/97 22:10
>>>
>>> Hi Miriam,
>>>
>>> >and conjunct the Coronation of William chart's Jupiter.
>>> OK, it's a traditional planet, but the Coronation of William? Aren't
>>> we falling
>>> into the trap of grasping at anything to prove our theories, and
>>> maybe missing
>>> the big picture?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Angela
>>>
>>> It has been my experience, in working with mundane charts for
>>> countries or corporations, that the earliest available chart is
>>> usually the most reliable; for England, that's the Coronation of
>>> William in 1066. There's no obscurity or grasping at straws about it.
>>> The monarchy has survived 1,831 years, and is in crisis now. Why not
>>> study the 1066 chart? Neptune's last station, in May, was on the
>>
>>Regards, DKR
>
>sueward@easynet.co.uk
>The Traditional Horary Course

--
Gill Norman Astronet UK BBS
Glastonbury England 51N06 02W42

Thread:	4/10 House
From:	spider@wildmaw.com (Mark Webb)	Date:	Tue, 16 Sep 1997 06:28:01 GMT

X-PMFLAGS: 36176000 0

Angela,

On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 06:36:05 EDT, you wrote:

>I know Lilly ascribes the 4th house to fathers and the 10th to mothers,
>(CA p 52 & 55 respectively), but could anyone explain his reasoning on
>this? In the patriarchal society that ruled then, even more so than now,
>I would have thought the 10th house of authoritarian figures would have been
>ascribed to the then perceived 'Head of the Family'.

It is precicely this "Head of the Family" idea that gives us the 4th
as Fathers. The 4th rules, family, ancestry, roots, lineage and
legacies all of which in a patriarchal society are accociated with the
Father. The 10th is the Mother as the partner (7th) of the Father.

Regards,

Mark

Thread:	4th/10th
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:21:00 -0400

Subject:
Re: 4/10 House
Date:
Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:59:15 -0400
From:
"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>
To:
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com>,
Carol A Wiggers <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
References:
1

Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:

I know Lilly ascribes the 4th house to fathers and the 10th to
mothers,
(CA p 52 & 55 respectively), but could anyone explain his reasoning on

this? In the patriarchal society that ruled then, even more so than
now,
I would have thought the 10th house of authoritarian figures would
have been
ascribed to the then perceived 'Head of the Family'.

Regards

Angela

Dear Angela,
I have often wondered about this myself; one possible explanation may be
that Lilly (and others) may have
noticed that men who reach for worldly power & influence (esp political)
tend to have powerful mothers, not
fathers. Think of Franklin Roosevelt (powerful, domineering, controlling
mother, father died early); and Jimmy
Carter's Miz Lillian; Bill Clinton, whose father died before he was
born; Nixon, who constantly talked about his
mother's influence, didn't like his father; Lincoln, who left home early
because he and his father hated each other -
he adored both his mother (who died young) and his step-mother. Then
there are the sons of famous powerful
fathers who somehow are overshadowed by them - Randolph Churchill comes
to mind (I have read that Randolph
was extraordinarily talented and actually brighter than his father, but
somehow he just never came up to
expectations). These are just a few examples off the top of my head, and
I know this is a bit simplistic - there are
probably many exceptions.

When the women's movement really took hold in the 1970's, I thought a
lot about why men were so keen to keep
women away from power, and came to the conclusion that women are
innately powerful (they are the first
controlling power in a child's life), while men have somehow to reach
for power to prove themselves.

Wow, I didn't mean to write a book. Luv, DKR

Thread:	Di's data
From:	"Jude T. DaShiell" <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>	Date:	Mon, 15 Sep 1997 05:43:54 -0400 (EDT)

Isn't the 4th house the end of the matter?

On Sun, 14 Sep 1997, Diana K. Rosenberg wrote:

> bruce nelson wrote:
>
> > >Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 20:40:07 -0400
> > >From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>
> > You wrote
> >
> > >> > The 3 planets in the 4th house can be taken as the 3 people who
> > were
> > >> killed
> > >> > in the crash. If the Moon is Diana and Mercury is the chauffeur
> > then
> > >> the
> > >> > Sun must be Dodi.
> >
> > Why are the three planets in the fourth of the wreck chart the people
> >
> > who were killed? What does the 4th have to do with the vehicle,
> > passengers,wreck, etc? For the sake of discussion , why couldnt the
> > sun
> > and mercury be Prince William and Henry at home(4th)of her family to
> > whom she was returning shortly, as the moon applied to this house. I
> > dont think statements should be made to fit the picture. What is the
> > astrological connection you make between the 4th house and the people
> > in
> > the car, other than that this seems to fit the facts? Also there is
> > the
> > fact of their being 4 people in the car , not three. Why so
> > conveniently
> > ignore the body-guard? Also, others have said the moon is in the
> > third,
> > which is what I believe. The astrology should be valid, and Im
> > interested in your reasoning here as it relates to valid astrology.
> >
> > Bruce Nelson
> > Natal and Horary Astrologer
> >
>
> DEAR BRUCE: AS I HAVE E-MAILED YOU ONCE ALREADY, THAT WAS NOT MY
> ANALYSIS; THE 9 6 97 MESSAGE WAS A RE-SENT ONE FROM GARRY HEATON OF
> ENGLAND, BECAUSE SOMEONE REQUESTED HIS ANALYSIS. IF YOU GO BACK IN YOUR
> E-MAIL FILES AND RE-READ THE BEGINNING OF THAT TRANSMISSION, YOU WILL
> SEE THAT I WAS SIMPLY PASSING IT ON, AS REQUESTED.
>

Thread:	4/10 House
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com>	Date:	Mon, 15 Sep 1997 06:36:05 EDT

I know Lilly ascribes the 4th house to fathers and the 10th to mothers,
(CA p 52 & 55 respectively), but could anyone explain his reasoning on
this? In the patriarchal society that ruled then, even more so than now,
I would have thought the 10th house of authoritarian figures would have been
ascribed to the then perceived 'Head of the Family'.

Regards

Angela

Thread:	Will Alex Live?
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:48:36 -0700

Dear Claudia,

I tried to send this direct to you but was advised that the service was
unavailable - it therefore comes to you via the list.

Many thanks for the background information.

I understood the question at 10.03 a.m. GMT, 12 September 1997 (52N30, 1W55).

The Ascendant is 4 degrees 51 minutes Scorpio. Although the Lord of the Hour
is Jupiter and therefore does not agree with the Scorpio Ascendant Jupiter
could (just) be considered angular since it is within five degrees of the
fourth house cusp.

However, the seventh house (the astrologer) is ruled by Venus which is in
its fall in Scorpio.

This is a condition under which Lilly specifically warns the astrologer is
unlikely to give a sound judgement (p. 123 Christian Astrology).

I therefore feel it best if I do not make any further attempt to judge the
chart.

Sorry not to be able to shed any more light on matters but my thoughts are
with you at what sounds to be a difficult time.

All the best,
Jonathon

Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	The Big Picture
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:19:35 -0400

jonn@dircon.co.uk wrote:

> but 1066 wasn't the start of monarchy, only a change of dynasty, and
> there have
> been several changes of dynasty since. And 1066 hardly describes
> England, England
> isn't an identifiable entity until sometime in the 14th century. The
> Normans and
> Plantagenets were far more concerned with their possessions in Europe
> than with
> being monarchs of England. I'm not sure what the 1066 chart describes
> beyond the
> subservience of the country to foreign rulers, (maybe it's the last
> successful
> invasion)
> Jon
>
> -----------------------------Reply
> Separator---------------------------------
>
> > >> It has been my experience, in working with mundane charts for
>
> > >> countries or corporations, that the earliest available chart
> is
> > >> usually the most reliable; for England, that's the Coronation
> of
> > >> William in 1066. There's no obscurity or grasping at straws
> about it.
> > >> The monarchy has survived 1,831 years, and is in crisis now.
> Why not
> > >> study the 1066 chart? Neptune's last station, in May, was on
> the
> > >
> > >Regards, DKR
> >
> > sueward@easynet.co.uk
> > The Traditional Horary Course
> >

What you say is all very true, but William brought in not only a new
dynasty, but huge cultural, legal, and linguistic changes (which, as you
note, did not really jell into a new national style and identity until
several centuries had passed); he brutally and effectively changed
England and ruled it with an iron hand; out of the mixture of
Anglo-Saxon and Norman (Norse) French came the language of Chaucer,
Shakespeare, and the words we are communicating with today, and language
is the cradle of culture, because of its relation to thinking and
cognition.I did not mean to challenge or criticize what you wrote, but I
do believe that the 1066 coronation chart is the best of the
possibilities that we have, and it works very well. Campion's Book of
World Horoscopes, under United Kingdom, has a very fine discussion of
the earlier possibilities, and dismisses them, giving reasons. (I have
the older edition, which has it on pp 284-292).

Best wishes, DKR

Thread:	Di's data
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:57:24 -0400

--------------D78CA3448399F2A1F1672144
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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bruce nelson wrote:

> >Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 20:40:07 -0400
> >From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>
> You wrote
>
> >> > The 3 planets in the 4th house can be taken as the 3 people who
> were
> >> killed
> >> > in the crash. If the Moon is Diana and Mercury is the chauffeur
> then
> >> the
> >> > Sun must be Dodi.
>
> Why are the three planets in the fourth of the wreck chart the people
>
> who were killed? What does the 4th have to do with the vehicle,
> passengers,wreck, etc? For the sake of discussion , why couldnt the
> sun
> and mercury be Prince William and Henry at home(4th)of her family to
> whom she was returning shortly, as the moon applied to this house. I
> dont think statements should be made to fit the picture. What is the
> astrological connection you make between the 4th house and the people
> in
> the car, other than that this seems to fit the facts? Also there is
> the
> fact of their being 4 people in the car , not three. Why so
> conveniently
> ignore the body-guard? Also, others have said the moon is in the
> third,
> which is what I believe. The astrology should be valid, and Im
> interested in your reasoning here as it relates to valid astrology.
>
> Bruce Nelson
> Natal and Horary Astrologer
>

DEAR BRUCE: AS I HAVE E-MAILED YOU ONCE ALREADY, THAT WAS NOT MY
ANALYSIS; THE 9 6 97 MESSAGE WAS A RE-SENT ONE FROM GARRY HEATON OF
ENGLAND, BECAUSE SOMEONE REQUESTED HIS ANALYSIS. IF YOU GO BACK IN YOUR
E-MAIL FILES AND RE-READ THE BEGINNING OF THAT TRANSMISSION, YOU WILL
SEE THAT I WAS SIMPLY PASSING IT ON, AS REQUESTED.

--------------D78CA3448399F2A1F1672144
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
bruce nelson wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 20:40:07 -0400
 >From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>
 You wrote

>> > The 3 planets in the 4th house can be taken as the 3 people who
 were
 >> killed
 >> > in the crash. If the Moon is Diana and Mercury is the chauffeur
 then
 >> the
 >> > Sun must be Dodi.

 Why are the three planets in the fourth of the wreck chart the
people
 who were killed?  What does the 4th have to do with the vehicle,
 passengers,wreck, etc? For the sake of discussion , why couldnt the
sun
 and mercury be Prince William and Henry at home(4th)of her family to
 whom she was returning shortly, as the moon applied to this house.
I
 dont think statements should be made to fit the picture. What is the
 astrological connection you make between the 4th house and the people
in
 the car, other than that this seems to fit the facts? Also there is
the
 fact of their being 4 people in the car , not three. Why so conveniently
 ignore the body-guard?  Also, others have said the moon is in
the third,
 which is what I believe.  The astrology should be valid, and Im
 interested in your reasoning here as it relates to valid astrology.

Bruce  Nelson
 Natal and Horary Astrologer
 <A HREF="http://www.hotmail.com"></A> </BLOCKQUOTE>
   DEAR BRUCE: AS I HAVE E-MAILED YOU ONCE ALREADY,  THAT
WAS NOT MY ANALYSIS; THE 9 6 97 MESSAGE WAS A RE-SENT ONE FROM GARRY
HEATON OF ENGLAND, BECAUSE SOMEONE REQUESTED HIS ANALYSIS. IF YOU GO BACK
IN YOUR E-MAIL FILES AND RE-READ THE BEGINNING OF THAT TRANSMISSION, YOU
WILL SEE THAT I WAS SIMPLY PASSING IT ON, AS REQUESTED.</HTML>

--------------D78CA3448399F2A1F1672144--

Thread:	Lost or stolen money...
From:	adonis <adonis@ihug.co.nz>	Date:	Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:27:46 +1200

STRICTLY, the moon is void of course. It's all over. There is nothing
more to be done. Tell her to stop worrying about it.

>From the description you have of the chart, it was 23:44 rather than 11:44.
You'd better check
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~adonis/astrology/horary1.gif to make sure.

At 23:52 12/09/97 -0400, you wrote:
>a friend of mine had 100.00 taken from her home, she's not sure if it
>was her daughter or her boyfriend who gave her the money originally.
>
>she asked the question at 11:44 edt Brooklyn NY
>
>She really would like some kind of clue on this since money was also
>missing last week when both were present and she's not exactly sure who
>is doing it.
>
>
>Any information or help would be greatly appreciated, I tried to do the
>horary chart but I'm not that familiar with the process or what house
>would be represented in this matter.
>
>I know 2nd and 8th houses rule money and other peoples money... I have
>second house being ruled by moon which is in the 8th...seperating from a
>conjunction with neptune and applying to one with uranus and then
>jupiter
>
>Please help...
>
>
>
>

"The approach that can be discussed is not the way to enlightenment."
Lao Ci

Thread:	The Big Picture
From:	jonn@dircon.co.uk	Date:	Sat, 13 Sep 97 21:12:15 GMT

but 1066 wasn't the start of monarchy, only a change of dynasty, and there have
been several changes of dynasty since. And 1066 hardly describes England, England
isn't an identifiable entity until sometime in the 14th century. The Normans and
Plantagenets were far more concerned with their possessions in Europe than with
being monarchs of England. I'm not sure what the 1066 chart describes beyond the
subservience of the country to foreign rulers, (maybe it's the last successful
invasion)
Jon

-----------------------------Reply Separator---------------------------------

> >> It has been my experience, in working with mundane charts for
> >> countries or corporations, that the earliest available chart is
> >> usually the most reliable; for England, that's the Coronation of
> >> William in 1066. There's no obscurity or grasping at straws about it.
> >> The monarchy has survived 1,831 years, and is in crisis now. Why not
> >> study the 1066 chart? Neptune's last station, in May, was on the
> >
> >Regards, DKR
>
> sueward@easynet.co.uk
> The Traditional Horary Course
>

Thread:	Di's data
From:	"bruce nelson" <v33@hotmail.com>	Date:	Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:03:22 PDT

>Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 20:40:07 -0400
>From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>
You wrote

>> > The 3 planets in the 4th house can be taken as the 3 people who
were
>> killed
>> > in the crash. If the Moon is Diana and Mercury is the chauffeur
then
>> the
>> > Sun must be Dodi.

Why are the three planets in the fourth of the wreck chart the people
who were killed? What does the 4th have to do with the vehicle,
passengers,wreck, etc? For the sake of discussion , why couldnt the sun
and mercury be Prince William and Henry at home(4th)of her family to
whom she was returning shortly, as the moon applied to this house. I
dont think statements should be made to fit the picture. What is the
astrological connection you make between the 4th house and the people in
the car, other than that this seems to fit the facts? Also there is the
fact of their being 4 people in the car , not three. Why so conveniently
ignore the body-guard? Also, others have said the moon is in the third,
which is what I believe. The astrology should be valid, and Im
interested in your reasoning here as it relates to valid astrology.

Bruce Nelson
Natal and Horary Astrologer

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Thread:	Lost or stolen money...
From:	spicy <spicy@nyct.net>	Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:52:28 -0400

a friend of mine had 100.00 taken from her home, she's not sure if it
was her daughter or her boyfriend who gave her the money originally.

she asked the question at 11:44 edt Brooklyn NY

She really would like some kind of clue on this since money was also
missing last week when both were present and she's not exactly sure who
is doing it.

Any information or help would be greatly appreciated, I tried to do the
horary chart but I'm not that familiar with the process or what house
would be represented in this matter.

I know 2nd and 8th houses rule money and other peoples money... I have
second house being ruled by moon which is in the 8th...seperating from a
conjunction with neptune and applying to one with uranus and then
jupiter

Please help...

Thread:	Election
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:36:33 -0700 (PDT)

>Hi,
>A quick response to the request for a change of topic; I've not lost any
keys but
>I would appreciate guidance on an election chart. That eclipse was bang on
my 12th
>cusp moon (9virgo) and seems to have brought a string of happy events,

I've not usually come across eclipse degrees signifying good events - anyone
else help here or got similar experiences?

>businesswise at least, eg a new business tie up for me to do psychometric
work for
>an employment agency, and a larger than expected advance from a publisher
for a
>book, and invitations to do more work for an examinations
institute...and..there's
>more. It's all in line with my aim to give up teaching and work from home
(or at
>least in 12th house seclusion.). Anyway, I have to declare myself soon to the
>Inland Revenue (tax people) as self employed, which is like starting a
whole new
>career, even at my advanced age. Some pointers as to choosing the moment
would be
>appreciated.

I would suggest that there needs to be a siginficant event to determine the
start of the new business. I went through a similar process starting a
consultancy from home so there wasn't really a question of opening shop or
suchlike. In the end I ceremoniously changed the message on the answerphone
to mark the start of the business. If you have the right intention it will
probably activate the process.

Election charts need to line up with the natal chart - i.e. some
correpsondence between the Sun, Moon and Ascendant of the chart of your
business and your birth chart.

Mercury should usually be strong also and a good Moon is useful to say the
least, preferably waxing.

Also make sure that you have a strong second house (your own money),
probably a good seventh house if you want to deal with financially healthy
clients and a good tenth house which signifies your reputation and
achievement of the business.

It sounds as though you also need to take care with the ninth house (of
knowledge) if you are writing and publishing.

Hope this is of some help,

Regards,
Jonathon
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	Subscribe
From:	KathyFleck@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:44:52 -0400 (EDT)

Wish to subscribe

Thanks

Thread:	The Big Picture
From:	Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk>	Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:53:20

I agree that the 1066 chart for England is a sensitive one and certainly
describes the English very well. It obviously doesn't hold true for the
Union, but as a starting point and for the monarchy it is a very good
chart. After all, if we have the 'birth' chart for a building, does it
matter how long it stands, the chart still holds true.

Sincerely

Sue

At 23:47 10/9/1997 -0400, Diana Rosenberg wrote:
>Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:
>
>> *** Resending note of 09/09/97 22:10
>>
>> Hi Miriam,
>>
>> >and conjunct the Coronation of William chart's Jupiter.
>> OK, it's a traditional planet, but the Coronation of William? Aren't
>> we falling
>> into the trap of grasping at anything to prove our theories, and
>> maybe missing
>> the big picture?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Angela
>>
>> It has been my experience, in working with mundane charts for
>> countries or corporations, that the earliest available chart is
>> usually the most reliable; for England, that's the Coronation of
>> William in 1066. There's no obscurity or grasping at straws about it.
>> The monarchy has survived 1,831 years, and is in crisis now. Why not
>> study the 1066 chart? Neptune's last station, in May, was on the
>
>Regards, DKR

sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread:	Election
From:	jonn@dircon.co.uk	Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 97 02:57:10 GMT

Hi,
A quick response to the request for a change of topic; I've not lost any keys but
I would appreciate guidance on an election chart. That eclipse was bang on my 12th
cusp moon (9virgo) and seems to have brought a string of happy events,
businesswise at least, eg a new business tie up for me to do psychometric work for
an employment agency, and a larger than expected advance from a publisher for a
book, and invitations to do more work for an examinations institute...and..there's
more. It's all in line with my aim to give up teaching and work from home (or at
least in 12th house seclusion.). Anyway, I have to declare myself soon to the
Inland Revenue (tax people) as self employed, which is like starting a whole new
career, even at my advanced age. Some pointers as to choosing the moment would be
appreciated.
cheers
--
Jon

Thread:	Mohamad al-Fayed
From:	jonn@dircon.co.uk	Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 97 02:57:03 GMT

Wasnt Dodi 41? 1955 seems a trifle late for his father's birth
--
Jon
duas tantum res anxias optat; panem et circenses
-----------------------------Reply Separator---------------------------------
On 10/09/97 10:28, in message <970910132629_1761773240@emout01.mail.aol.com>,
Songwomn@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-09-09 16:15:51 EDT, you write:
>
> << Hi, Lillies:
>
> Does anyone have the birth data for Mohamad al-Fayed? Since he was born
> in poverty, I don't think his time would be readily available, but even
> the date would help.
>
> Sue >>
>
>
> My understanding is that his birth date is April 15, 1955. I don't
> recall the time of birth.
>
> Cathy
>

Thread:	UK
From:	Susan Archer <nztba@xtra.co.nz>	Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 09:49:36 -0700

It's worth reading pp. 440 - 442 of "Mundane Astrology" (2nd ed.) by
Baigent/Campion/Harvey which covers the 1990s transits to the 1801 UK
chart. They also suggest that 1997 may be the year in which the decade
achives its "true character". Most of the outer planet cycles are now in
their waxing phase, and this may well mark a profound "sea-change" that
is presently evident in the UK, but can be expected to have a global
impact. From this end of the world (New Zealand) it has been extremely
moving to witness the outpouring of emotion for Princess Diana and the
perceived loss of the qualities that she represented: very different
from what we've come to expect from stiff-upper-lipped Brits!
I see this time as particularly challenging for Prince Charles: this may
be his last chance to prove himself worthy of kinghood. I note that the
February 1997 Jupiter/Uranus conjunction fell almost exactly on his
natal Descendant, indicating the potential for upheaval, sudden change
and growth in his relationship not only with Diana (and Camilla) but
also the people as a whole.(The conjunction fell on China's Ascendant:
Deng died a few days later.)
This is my first contribution to the Lilly list, I'm sorry it's not
about traditional or horary astrology! The discussions are generally
marvellous - thank you for letting me lurk, I look forward to
participating more from now on.
Susan Archer
s.archer@mailexcite.com

Thread:	Diana and Dodi - Question
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 01:28:08 -0700

>
>On Mon, 01 Sep 1997 17:24:17 -0400 Shirley Gray
><GrayShirley@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>TonyLouis@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>> In a message dated 97-08-31 18:20:04 EDT, you write:
>>>
>>> << Does anyone have any info on the time of the accident? >>
>>>
>>> A quick look at the natal chart and the time of the accident (35 min
>>past

What is the source for this, please?

"The Times" (London) 1st. September gives the time of the accident as 12.25
a.m. with the first telephone call received by the emergency services at
12.27 a.m. Arrival of emergency services at scene was 12.35 a.m.

Regards,
Jonathon

>>> midnight) shows the following very close aspects:
>>>
>>> progressed Mars octile (45) natal Neptune
>>> Prog. ASC trioctile (135) natal Pluto
>>> Prog. Uranus opposed to natal Moon (ruler of the 8th of death)
>>> Transiting Pluto quincunx (150) natal Mercury
>>> Transiting Sun octile natal MC
>>> Transiting Uranus quincunx natal Pluto
>>> Transiting Neptune conjunct natal Saturn.
>>>
>>> In addition, the solar eclipse of 9/1/97 occurs in her 8th house of
>>death.
>
>
>Shirley:
>
>Could you perhaps explain octiles and trioctiles? I know that the octile
>is the same as a semi-square and the trioctile is the same as a
>sesquiquadrate (try saying that as fast as you can!) - but my Arkana
>Dictionary of Astrology assigns octiles to harmonics. The trioctile is
>not even in that dictionary but sesquiquads are explained as aspects of
>agitation and are considered to be difficult.
>
>Thanks; I like learning about aspects from every angle possible (pun
>intended).
>
>Sue
>
>
>Sue Fensalir
>Fensalir Astrology
>s.fensalir@juno.com
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	UK
From:	Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au>	Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:22:23

>Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 07:05:36
>To: adonis <adonis@ihug.co.nz>
>From: Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au>
>Subject: Re: UK
>In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19700101130000.006bda6c@pop3.ihug.co.nz>
>
>Hi,
>
>The name of the book is The Eagle and the Lark, and concentrates on
'predictive' techniques.
>
>I think that the coming eclipse energy was in force. I find that Solar
Return chart 'overlap' by around six weeks. We allow an applying orb to
transits, why not to other phenomena?
>
>Regards,
>Miriam
>
>>1. She died some 2 days before the eclipse actually took place. And
>>clearly the moon wasn't in orb. This is unusual isn't it? Why are you
>>attributing this to the eclipse?
>>
>>2. What is the name of Bernadette Brady's book?
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.

Thread:	UK
From:	adonis <adonis@ihug.co.nz>	Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 15:56:13 +1200

Now I'm trying to learn here but what's the orb from? You see the orb of
the eclipse was some 3 degrees away from her pluto. The moon was between
18 and 24 degrees away from the eclipse. The sun was 2 degrees away from
the eclipse.

I've found in my work that 1 degree is all that is consistently useful.
And I don't think that's uncommon. It seems undisciplined to me to
suddenly up the ante for the sake of explanation. But I'm happy to be
corrected, in the most positive way of course.

At 07:05 11/09/97, Miriam Laister wrote:
>Hi,
>
>The name of the book is The Eagle and the Lark, and concentrates on
>'predictive' techniques.
>
>I think that the coming eclipse energy was in force. I find that Solar
>Return chart 'overlap' by around six weeks. We allow an applying orb to
>transits, why not to other phenomena?
>
>Regards,
>Miriam
>
>>1. She died some 2 days before the eclipse actually took place. And
>>clearly the moon wasn't in orb. This is unusual isn't it? Why are you
>>attributing this to the eclipse?
>>
>>2. What is the name of Bernadette Brady's book?
>--
>"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
>the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
>Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
>astrology lectures on tape.
>
>
Hi,

Cheers
xxxxxx

"The approach that can be discussed is not the way to enlightenment."
Lao Ci

Thread:	The Big Picture
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:47:53 -0400

Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:

> *** Resending note of 09/09/97 22:10
>
> Hi Miriam,
> >The Eclipse was opposite the 1922 United Kingdom chart's Uranus and
> >conjunct the Coronation of William chart's Jupiter.
> Isn't this getting just a little obscure? Do we have to go back to
> 1922 for
> a link with an outer planet, and then claim it substantiates the
> case? Or is
> there something special about 1922 that I've missed?
>
> >and conjunct the Coronation of William chart's Jupiter.
> OK, it's a traditional planet, but the Coronation of William? Aren't
> we falling
> into the trap of grasping at anything to prove our theories, and
> maybe missing
> the big picture?
>
> >The eclipse was conjunct Mundane Mercury. Is that enough?
>
> Yes, I think it probably is, especially given that Merc's retro.
>
> Regards
>
> Angela
>
> It has been my experience, in working with mundane charts for
> countries or corporations, that the earliest available chart is
> usually the most reliable; for England, that's the Coronation of
> William in 1066. There's no obscurity or grasping at straws about it.
> The monarchy has survived 1,831 years, and is in crisis now. Why not
> study the 1066 chart? Neptune's last station, in May, was on the
> Venus of that chart; Venus rules the 7th, which is the 10th of the
> 10th, that is, the reputation of the monarch. That chart's NNode is
> 19Virgo25, so it is also having a Nodal return.

Regards, DKR

>
>

Thread:	WWW
From:	jonn@dircon.co.uk	Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 97 01:05:38 GMT

I suppose little old mercury would be too simple?
--
Jon
duas tantum res anxias optat; panem et circenses

-----------------------------Reply Separator---------------------------------
On 08/09/97 18:53, in message
<Pine.GSO.3.96.970906152009.5900B-100000@bay.ist.flinders.edu.a, Terrell Neuage
<neua0002@ist.flinders.edu.au> wrote:

> Looking for information on astrological significators for the World Wide
> Web:
>
> I have been trying a composite of Uranus/Vulcan/Mercury
>
> When Uranus was discovered - lots of revolutions and the US Dec. of Ind.
> Neptune Madame Blavasky and the rest
> Pluto Nuclear fun and the Wall Street cleansing
>
> What do we have for the Internet? Surely some new force in the Solar
> System that would represent this.
>
> To help me in investigating this I would like the charts of:
> Bill Gates, Tim Berners-Lee (proposed the WorldWide Web in 1989), Ted
> Nelson, (the inventor of hypertext), and Netscape's CEO James Barksdale
> and any of the others who are part of this invention.
>
> World Wide Web was released by CERN in 1992 so this is all the 1990s.
>
> Does anyone have a chart for Microsoft or Netscape?
>
> My Masters thesis is on how the World Wide Web is changing literature
> (the narrative)
> http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5289/THESIS.html
>
> after the straight college shot I would like to do this from an
> astrological perspective.
>
>
> thanks
>
>
> Terrell Adsit-neuage Adelaide South Australia
>
>
>
>
>
>
> neua0002@victor.ist.flinders.edu.au
> neuage@deakin.edu.au
>
>

Thread:	Not just a name change
From:	jonn@dircon.co.uk	Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 97 01:03:43 GMT

Why Queen Victoria's? Surely she was ultimately a Hanovarian and the chart should
be George 1's accession. I think there was a deliberate attempt to make a new
start with the house of Windsor, and it's the Windsors' continuance that is in
question.
--
Jon
duas tantum res anxias optat; panem et circenses
-----------------------------Reply Separator---------------------------------
On 08/09/97 20:06, in message <3414BD2F.9AEAD48D@ix.netcom.com>, "Diana K.
Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> Mark Shulgasser wrote:
>
> > Does changing the name mean changing the chart? If I cahnge my name do
> > I
> > get a new birthchart? If the House of Windsor refers to a dynastic
> > succession, then the birthchart should be that of the moment of Queen
> > Victoria's coronation.
> > IMHO.
> >
> > Mark Shulgasser
> >
> > The important thing was to disconnect from their German connections,
> > and to family claims to thrones in Europe, to show there was no
> > possibility of divided allegience. This was necessary because there
> > was such rage against Germans at the time that people with German
> > names were being lynched in the streets of London and other cities.
> > Earl Mountbatten's father, for instance, was First Lord of the
> > Admiralty and a grandson of Victoria, but was forced to resign because
> > his name was Battenberg! The family changed their name to Mountbatten
> > as a result. Young Mountbatten devoted his life to becoming First Sea
> > Lord, to wipe out the shame of his father's dismissal. He achieved
> > that in WWar II.
> >
> > >Just received the following from Head, Research Dept, Cambridge U.
> > >Pretty definitive, what?
> > >
> > >ctc@ula.cam.ac.uk wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dear Diana Rosenberg,
> > >>
> > >> The proclamation by King George V "declaring that the name of
> > Windsor
> > >> is to
> > >> be borne by His Royal House and Family and relinquishing the use of
> >
> > >> all
> > >> German titles and dignities" was published in The London gazette of
> >
> > >> Tuesday
> > >> 17th July 1917. Incidentally, 17th June 1917 was a Sunday and
> > >> therefore a
> > >> most unlikely date for a royal proclamation.
> > >>
> > >> Yours sincerely,
> > >>
> > >> Colin T. Clarkson
> > >> Head of the Reference Department
> > >> Cambridge University Library
> > >
> > >Love to all, DKR
>
>
>
>

Thread:	Death
From:	kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com>	Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:22:36 -0500

Hi ya'll,

(She died some 2 days before the eclipse actually took place. And
clearly the moon wasn't in orb. This is unusual isn't it? Why are you
attributing this to the eclipse?)

In 1987 the first solar eclipse was conjunct my 2nd house cusp. 36
hours before the eclipse I found my friend and landlord's corpse. The
2nd solar eclipse that year was conjunct my eighth house cusp. About 36
hours before the eclipse I was notified that another friend had
disappeared. They later found his body. It wasn't exactly 36 hours for
either one of the eclipses but it was close.

Kent

Thread:	Mohamad al-Fayed
From:	Songwomn@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:28:22 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-09-09 16:15:51 EDT, you write:

<< Hi, Lillies:

Does anyone have the birth data for Mohamad al-Fayed? Since he was born
in poverty, I don't think his time would be readily available, but even
the date would help.

Sue >>

My understanding is that his birth date is April 15, 1955. I don't
recall the time of birth.

Cathy

Thread:	House of Windsor - a time
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:08:59 -0700 (PDT)

Per "The Times" (of London) 18th. July 1917.

The King held a council the previous day at "10.30 a.m. o'clock" for the
purpose of announcing the change of name to Windsor.

It would seem reasonable to assume that there was some pre-amble so the
exact time of announcement may have been 10.45 - 11.00 a.m. on 17 July 1917.

Summer time (one hour forward) was in operation so I have the Ascendant
degree at around 23 Virgo.

This puts the Moon almost exactly conjunct Prince William's Moon and
conjunct the Part of Death in the House of Windsor chart so between the two
of them it looks as though they won't be doing the dynasty many favours.

As posted previously, the South Node in the Windsor chart is conjunct
Princess Diana's natal sun.

However, in matters of this magnitude heaven usually holds a few aces so I'm
not sure that any of us will be able to forecast accurately.

Notwithstanding the above, has anyone lost a cat or some car keys recently?
It sure would make a change from what has almost become a Royal Family list
rather than the Lilly one we knew and loved.

All the best,
Jonathon
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	Updates on all manner of things
From:	"Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>	Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:33:14 +7

Dear listers,

I would like to take this time to bring you up to date on a few
things that are happening connected with JustUs & Associates. We
have had a memorable mercury retrograde this time! Our fax machine
finally gave out and had to be replaced with a new one, the mailing
program developed a bug and had to be completely redone (no small
chore that!) and I somehow developed a an ear and throat infection
that just would not heal properly (something I did not want to
hear and talk about I guess). The UPS strike played the devil with our
mailings to people and our receiving the parts we needed for the
large printing machine. Today we are making a fresh start! The
Saunders book is now completed and for those of you who have placed
your orders I will be shipping them out this week. For those of you
who would like to get a copy at the sale price we are extending it
until the 1st of October.

The mailing list has now reached almost 700 so if there is a delay of
your letter coming through please be patient. I would also like to
thank all of you for your e-mails concerning my husbands health, his
condition has not worsened and I shall take that as a good sign!
Thank you for taking the time to wish us well and for the candles
lit, prayers said and meditations done for us, we really appreciate
it.

For those of you who have articles, charts, advertisement etc. for
the January issue of the Horary Practitioner would you please send
them in as soon as possible. The deadline is the end of October but
I would like to get a head start on the work and spend the holidays
with my family this year! The theme of the issue is RETROGRADE
planets and how they affect the chart. We have certainly been through
a mercury retrograde period that none of us will soon forget.
Remember that this is a traditional/classical publication that covers
horary, events, medical and natal and mundane astrology. Thank you
in advance for your submissions.

With that said I will get this letter off to you and wish all of you
the very best in health and happiness.
Love & Light
Carol
==================================
William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
or traditional@halcyon.com
privately owned and brought to you by-
JustUs & Associates
Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
Coley, Ramsesy, Gadbury, and many more books available.
No fascimile copies, these books are all retyped and republished in modern print.
Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
horary_astrology@compuserve.com
http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall

Thread:	UK
From:	Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>	Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:04:36 -0400

At 02:41 PM 9/9/97, you wrote:
>Has anyone done any astrology on why everyone has gone completely mad over
>the last week or so? I'd be very interested in hearing opinions related to
>the UK or England chart. I suspect an afflicted Mercury at least, does
>anyone have anything on this? I like many of us over here have been
>avoiding the subject like the plague, so haven't had the stomach to look at
>it yet!
>
>Sincerely
>
>Sue
>sueward@easynet.co.uk
>The Traditional Horary Course

Dear Sue,

I can't answer to the last week or so, or specifically to the UK. The mass
hysteria is a world-wide affliction and has been going on for some time.
The start point occurred on 23 January 1979 when Pluto crossed Neptune's
orbit and Neptune became the outermost planet of our Solar System. Neptune
will bound the System until 15 March 1999 when Pluto again becomes the
outermost planet.

I expect we'll be in for a rather severe dose of reality around then. The
madness you are seeing now is the temporary triumph of symbolism (Neptune)
over substance (Pluto).

Warm Regards,

Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread:	Mother Theresa and Princess Diana's Charts
From:	Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au>	Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:56:29

Dear Claudia,

I have 1 25 pm LMT for Mother Therese giving 7.08 Sag rising and 25 45
Virgo MC.

This would have T. Pluto hanging around her ASC, so I feel this is
likelier. The eclipse was also conjunct her Dun.

Miriam

At 12:07 AM 9/09/97 -0700, Claudia D. Dikinis wrote:
>I don't know if you have the birth data on Mother Theresa. I just
>received it Saturday
>afternoon:
>
>Mother (Agnes Bojaxhiu) Theresa
>August 27, 1910
>2:24 p.m. MET - 1:00
>Skopjie
>31N59/021E26
>
>Asc: 25 SAG 07
>MC: 19 LIB 04
>
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.

Thread:	UK
From:	Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au>	Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:45:53

Hi Sue,

The Eclipse was opposite the 1922 United Kingdom chart's Uranus and
conjunct the Coronation of William chart's Jupiter. The eclipse was
conjunct Mundane Mercury. Is that enough?

Reading from Bernadette's book the eclipse was 18 North The original has a
Pluto Mercury conjunction with Uranus on the midpoint of Mars/Saturn. She
writes:

A high stress level accompanies the energy of this series and individuals
will experience a taxing of their strength. Events will occur that require
the expenditure of effort; this can also manifest as illness or accident.
The whole flavour of this eclipse is one of physical concern, as well as
worry or obsessive thinking.

I rest my case!

Love from over here,
Miriam

At 02:41 PM 9/09/97, Sue Ward wrote:
>Has anyone done any astrology on why everyone has gone completely mad over
>the last week or so? I'd be very interested in hearing opinions related to
>the UK or England chart. I suspect an afflicted Mercury at least, does
>anyone have anything on this?
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.

Thread:	UK
From:	adonis <adonis@ihug.co.nz>	Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:03:53 +1200

I have to questions:

1. She died some 2 days before the eclipse actually took place. And
clearly the moon wasn't in orb. This is unusual isn't it? Why are you
attributing this to the eclipse?

2. What is the name of Bernadette Brady's book?

Many thanks

At 07:45 10/09/97, you wrote:
>Hi Sue,
>
>The Eclipse was opposite the 1922 United Kingdom chart's Uranus and
>conjunct the Coronation of William chart's Jupiter. The eclipse was
>conjunct Mundane Mercury. Is that enough?
>
>Reading from Bernadette's book the eclipse was 18 North The original has a
>Pluto Mercury conjunction with Uranus on the midpoint of Mars/Saturn. She
>writes:
>
>A high stress level accompanies the energy of this series and individuals
>will experience a taxing of their strength. Events will occur that require
>the expenditure of effort; this can also manifest as illness or accident.
>The whole flavour of this eclipse is one of physical concern, as well as
>worry or obsessive thinking.
>
>I rest my case!
>
>Love from over here,
>Miriam
>
>At 02:41 PM 9/09/97, Sue Ward wrote:
>>Has anyone done any astrology on why everyone has gone completely mad over
>>the last week or so? I'd be very interested in hearing opinions related to
>>the UK or England chart. I suspect an afflicted Mercury at least, does
>>anyone have anything on this?
>--
>"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
>the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
>Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
>astrology lectures on tape.
>
>

"The approach that can be discussed is not the way to enlightenment."
Lao Ci

Thread:	UK
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com>	Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 04:02:05 EDT

*** Resending note of 09/09/97 22:10

Hi Miriam,
>The Eclipse was opposite the 1922 United Kingdom chart's Uranus and
>conjunct the Coronation of William chart's Jupiter.
Isn't this getting just a little obscure? Do we have to go back to 1922 for
a link with an outer planet, and then claim it substantiates the case? Or is
there something special about 1922 that I've missed?

>and conjunct the Coronation of William chart's Jupiter.
OK, it's a traditional planet, but the Coronation of William? Aren't we falling
into the trap of grasping at anything to prove our theories, and maybe missing
the big picture?

>The eclipse was conjunct Mundane Mercury. Is that enough?

Yes, I think it probably is, especially given that Merc's retro.

Regards

Angela

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:

Thread:	SUBJECT
From:	WHOFROM	Date:	DATETIME

Thread:	Diana and Dodi - Question
From:	s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson)	Date:	Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:13:14 -0700

On Mon, 01 Sep 1997 17:24:17 -0400 Shirley Gray
<GrayShirley@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>TonyLouis@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 97-08-31 18:20:04 EDT, you write:
>>
>> << Does anyone have any info on the time of the accident? >>
>>
>> A quick look at the natal chart and the time of the accident (35 min
>past
>> midnight) shows the following very close aspects:
>>
>> progressed Mars octile (45) natal Neptune
>> Prog. ASC trioctile (135) natal Pluto
>> Prog. Uranus opposed to natal Moon (ruler of the 8th of death)
>> Transiting Pluto quincunx (150) natal Mercury
>> Transiting Sun octile natal MC
>> Transiting Uranus quincunx natal Pluto
>> Transiting Neptune conjunct natal Saturn.
>>
>> In addition, the solar eclipse of 9/1/97 occurs in her 8th house of
>death.

Shirley:

Could you perhaps explain octiles and trioctiles? I know that the octile
is the same as a semi-square and the trioctile is the same as a
sesquiquadrate (try saying that as fast as you can!) - but my Arkana
Dictionary of Astrology assigns octiles to harmonics. The trioctile is
not even in that dictionary but sesquiquads are explained as aspects of
agitation and are considered to be difficult.

Thanks; I like learning about aspects from every angle possible (pun
intended).

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com

Thread:	UK
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:26:23 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-09-09 16:32:19 EDT, you write:

<< Has anyone done any astrology on why everyone has gone completely mad over
the last week or so? >>

Sue,

I think the Sept. 1 solar eclipse in Virgo may have something to do with it.

Tony

Thread:	UK
From:	david ryan <kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk>	Date:	Tue, 9 Sep 1997 23:37:35 +0100

In message <3.0.1.16.19970909144119.22bf80e4@mail.easynet.co.uk>, Sue
Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> writes
>Has anyone done any astrology on why everyone has gone completely mad over
>the last week or so? I'd be very interested in hearing opinions related to
>the UK or England chart. I suspect an afflicted Mercury at least, does
>anyone have anything on this? I like many of us over here have been
>avoiding the subject like the plague, so haven't had the stomach to look at
>it yet!
>
>Sincerely
>
>Sue
>sueward@easynet.co.uk
>The Traditional Horary Course

It's related to a sea change in consciousness and values, you can fight
change, but it will still happen.

Princess Diana's death at the sun eclipse and her funeral chart
identifying her with chiron the wounded healer and expander of
consciousness are some clues to what has been happening as is her
aquarian moon tuning into the times.

David Ryan |Phone 011-44-181 874 8218 (from US)
Kozmik Horoscopes | Fax 011-44-181-875 1025
134 Elsenham Street |International: code+44-181-874-8218
London SW18 5NP |email:kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk
UK |http://www.demon.co.uk/kdm/hscope.html

Thread:	UK
From:	Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk>	Date:	Tue, 09 Sep 1997 14:41:19

Has anyone done any astrology on why everyone has gone completely mad over
the last week or so? I'd be very interested in hearing opinions related to
the UK or England chart. I suspect an afflicted Mercury at least, does
anyone have anything on this? I like many of us over here have been
avoiding the subject like the plague, so haven't had the stomach to look at
it yet!

Sincerely

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread:	Prince William
From:	astrology@aurumtel.com	Date:	Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:30:16 -0400

Prince William's birth data is given in Bernadette Brady's book, The Eagle and
the Lark (source Astro-Data III) as:

June 21, 1982, 9:03 p.m. BST London, England

He was born on the day of a solar eclipse, and the sun had just gone into
Cancer, so this may be the source of confusion about him being "a Gemini" (The
sun was at 00 degrees and 6 minutes of Cancer).

Hope this helps.

On Mon, 8 Sep 1997, "Barbara" <arque@ioda.telnet.com.br> wrote:
>I would like to know if someone has the correct data about
>Prince William (born in June 1982),

Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum
---------------------------
- Duxbury, Massachusetts -
- astrology@aurumtel.com -
---------------------------

Thread:	Mohamad al-Fayed
From:	"Nicholas Grier" <n.grier@napier.ac.uk>	Date:	Tue, 09 Sep 97 09:48:21 gmt

Mohammed al-Fayed is not normally renowned for his shy and retiring
nature. If Harrods has its own web-page, their PR people might be able
to tell us. Apparently they have 14 people in their PR department,
their boss being a man called Michael Cole, former court correspondent
for (I think) the BBC. He might well know Fayed's details, or be
willing to pass them on. In any case Fayed was not entirely born in
poverty, as I understand it: I may be wrong but I think his father was
a teacher in Cairo. Astrology is by no means scorned in Islamic
countries - indeed the Ayathollah Khomeini in Iran studied it for many
years. Accordingly Fayed might well have had his horoscope cast.

Nicholas

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Mohamad al-Fayed
Author: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> at internet-gateway
Date: 09/09/97 04:27

>Message was resent -- Original recipients were:
To:
william_lilly@halcyon.com-------------------------------------------------------
------------------------
Hi, Lillies:

Does anyone have the birth data for Mohamad al-Fayed? Since he was born
in poverty, I don't think his time would be readily available, but even
the date would help.

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com

Thread:	Mother Theresa and Princess Diana's Charts
From:	"Claudia D. Dikinis" <starcats@earthlink.net>	Date:	Tue, 09 Sep 1997 00:07:39 -0700

I don't know if you have the birth data on Mother Theresa. I just
received it Saturday
afternoon:

Mother (Agnes Bojaxhiu) Theresa
August 27, 1910
2:24 p.m. MET - 1:00
Skopjie
31N59/021E26

Asc: 25 SAG 07
MC: 19 LIB 04

House 1: Uranus at 21 Cap 45 R
House 2: (using Koch AQ is intercepted) Chiron at 00 PI 05 R
House 4: SAT 6 TAU 32 R
House 5: NN at 22 TAU 48
House 6: MO 2 GEM 46
House 7: PLU 27 GEM 45 and NEP 20 CAN 39
House 8: (Leo intercepted) VE 10 LE 07
House 9: SU 3 VIR 23, Mars 14 VIR 39, PF 24 VIR 32, MER 00 LIB 18,
JU 14 LI 00
House 11: SN 22 SCOR 48

Quick Glance Notes:

If we use the 2:15 pm BST -1 July 1961 birth time for Diana:

Diana's ASC = 19 LI 48
Mother's MC = 19 LI 04

Using the 7: 45 pm BST 01 1 July 1961 birth time for Diana:

Diana ASC = 18 SAG 24
Mother's ASC = 25 SAG 09
Diana MC = 23 LI 03
Mother's MC = 19 LI 04

Using the 2:15 birth time for Diana as stated above:

We can see an interesting exchange between the two charts simply by
doing a natal comparison and deriving houses. I am deriving from
Mother's
chart, because she did not pass away until September 5th.

Mother's MC comes to Diana's Ascendant
If the 11th house is friends, then counting 8 houses would reveal in
Mother's chart
the death of a friend. That count finds us in Mother's 6th house with
her GEM
MO semi-sextile Diana's natal mercury at 3 cancer. Also, Mother's MO
disposits
Diana's Sun in Cancer. There is a link.

Rex Bills says that the sixth house alone indicates death of a friend
vis a vis
the legacy that friend leaves. Again, Mother's 6th house holds the moon

which disposits Diana's Cancer Sun.

Mother's Pluto at 27 GEM 45 is in the exact degree of Diana's Saturn
forming
an inconjunct. SAT and PLU are the planets that rule death.

Mother's MC and Diana's ASC are 19 LI 04 and 19 LI 48, respectively.
Transiting
ST is 19 AR 38 R. The Nodes are 19 VI 43/19PI43.

This rough sketch reveals that some study needs to go into comparison of
these
two charts. I'm game. Is anyone else? I'd love to hear your take on
all
this.

Love.......................:)x10!

--
Best Wishes from Your StarGazer,

StarCats

For information on how
to set an appointment with
me for your chart reading,
e-mail me and I will send
you my FAQ sheet!

Thread:	Not just a name change
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Mon, 08 Sep 1997 23:06:24 -0400

Mark Shulgasser wrote:

> Does changing the name mean changing the chart? If I cahnge my name do
> I
> get a new birthchart? If the House of Windsor refers to a dynastic
> succession, then the birthchart should be that of the moment of Queen
> Victoria's coronation.
> IMHO.
>
> Mark Shulgasser
>
> The important thing was to disconnect from their German connections,
> and to family claims to thrones in Europe, to show there was no
> possibility of divided allegience. This was necessary because there
> was such rage against Germans at the time that people with German
> names were being lynched in the streets of London and other cities.
> Earl Mountbatten's father, for instance, was First Lord of the
> Admiralty and a grandson of Victoria, but was forced to resign because
> his name was Battenberg! The family changed their name to Mountbatten
> as a result. Young Mountbatten devoted his life to becoming First Sea
> Lord, to wipe out the shame of his father's dismissal. He achieved
> that in WWar II.
>
> >Just received the following from Head, Research Dept, Cambridge U.
> >Pretty definitive, what?
> >
> >ctc@ula.cam.ac.uk wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Diana Rosenberg,
> >>
> >> The proclamation by King George V "declaring that the name of
> Windsor
> >> is to
> >> be borne by His Royal House and Family and relinquishing the use of
>
> >> all
> >> German titles and dignities" was published in The London gazette of
>
> >> Tuesday
> >> 17th July 1917. Incidentally, 17th June 1917 was a Sunday and
> >> therefore a
> >> most unlikely date for a royal proclamation.
> >>
> >> Yours sincerely,
> >>
> >> Colin T. Clarkson
> >> Head of the Reference Department
> >> Cambridge University Library
> >
> >Love to all, DKR

Thread:	Sorry, Merc rx again
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Mon, 08 Sep 1997 22:52:34 -0400

To Sue Jorgenson - I just realized you asked for date for Mohamed al
Fayed, not Dodi. Don't have it, sorry. DKR

Thread:	Replies...
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Mon, 08 Sep 1997 22:49:54 -0400

Replies to varied inquiries:

To Mark Shulgasser: Wanna bet BOTH Victoria's coronation & Proclamation
charts work?? Vickie became queen 6 20 1837, "morning" on the death of
William IV; she was crowned 6 28 1838; don't know time.

To Sue Jorgenson: Dodi Fayed was born 4 15 55, Alexandria, Egypt,
according to London Times obit.

About a time for the House of Windsor proclamation: probably the Proc
was sent to the London Gazette for immediate publication; it was a
Tuesday, so church didn't come into it; your guess is as good as mine.
I'd try high noon. Noon charts work well for things like this.

Love, DKR

Thread:	Mohamad al-Fayed
From:	s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson)	Date:	Mon, 8 Sep 1997 19:07:52 -0700

Hi, Lillies:

Does anyone have the birth data for Mohamad al-Fayed? Since he was born
in poverty, I don't think his time would be readily available, but even
the date would help.

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com

Thread:	WWW
From:	Terrell Neuage <neua0002@ist.flinders.edu.au>	Date:	Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:23:07 +0930 (CST)

This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.
Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info.

---559023410-851401618-873527195=:5900
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970909110452.15610B@torrens.ist.flinders.edu.au>

Looking for information on astrological significators for the World Wide
Web:

I have been trying a composite of Uranus/Vulcan/Mercury

When Uranus was discovered - lots of revolutions and the US Dec. of Ind.
Neptune Madame Blavasky and the rest
Pluto Nuclear fun and the Wall Street cleansing

What do we have for the Internet? Surely some new force in the Solar
System that would represent this.

To help me in investigating this I would like the charts of:
Bill Gates, Tim Berners-Lee (proposed the WorldWide Web in 1989), Ted
Nelson, (the inventor of hypertext), and Netscape's CEO James Barksdale
and any of the others who are part of this invention.

World Wide Web was released by CERN in 1992 so this is all the 1990s.

Does anyone have a chart for Microsoft or Netscape?

My Masters thesis is on how the World Wide Web is changing literature
(the narrative)
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5289/THESIS.html

after the straight college shot I would like to do this from an
astrological perspective.

thanks

Terrell Adsit-neuage Adelaide South Australia

neua0002@victor.ist.flinders.edu.au
neuage@deakin.edu.au

---559023410-851401618-873527195=:5900--

Thread:	Definitive:H of Windsor
From:	s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson)	Date:	Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:32:07 -0700

On Mon, 08 Sep 1997 09:40:27 -0400 "Diana K. Rosenberg"
<ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Just received the following from Head, Research Dept, Cambridge U.
>Pretty definitive, what?
>
>ctc@ula.cam.ac.uk wrote:
>
>> Dear Diana Rosenberg,
>>
>> The proclamation by King George V "declaring that the name of
>Windsor
>> is to
>> be borne by His Royal House and Family and relinquishing the use of
>> all
>> German titles and dignities" was published in The London gazette of
>> Tuesday
>> 17th July 1917. Incidentally, 17th June 1917 was a Sunday and
>> therefore a
>> most unlikely date for a royal proclamation.
>>
>> Yours sincerely,
>>
>> Colin T. Clarkson
>> Head of the Reference Department
>> Cambridge University Library
>
>Love to all, DKR

Diana:

Talk about pullin' rabbits out of hats! That's marvelous! Now, if the
_time_ is recorded somewhere...I would guess, off the top of my head,
around noon because people would be in church in the morning, and one
wouldn't want to interrupt high tea, would one? Not proper. What do you
think?

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com

Thread:	Prince William
From:	s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson)	Date:	Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:29:18 -0700

On Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:43:15 +3:00 "Barbara" <arque@ioda.telnet.com.br>
writes:
>I would like to know if someone has the correct data about
>Prince William (born in June 1982), not only because he is
>the son of Princess Diana, but also because he was born in
>that year, where we did multiple conjunctions of several
>planets. I'm keeping an eye in that children born in that
>year...
>
>thanks
>
>Barbara

Barbara, there has been some confusion recently over whether William is a
Gemini or Cancer, and the data I have is: June 21, 1982, 9:03 pm BST
(-1:00), London 51N30 000W10.

This places his Sun at 00 Cancer 06, Moon at 04 Cancer 58 and Ascendant
at 27 Sagittarius 30. Reason being, Diana was quoted by sources as
saying Wills is such a typical Gemini, and I think Penny Thornton may
have had a hand in casting his chart. Also, back then, we didn't have the
wonderful computer programs we do now - there may have been a mild error
in handcasting his chart. Someone else suggested that a sidereal chart
could have been used in William's chart re: Gemini Sun.

I hope this helps! There's no way he's a Gemini altho' he has Mercury in
Gemini in opposition to Uranus in Sagittarius which could make him
somewhat Gemini-like. He is far too much like his mother to be one,
anyway, IMHO.

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com

Thread:	Definitive:H of Windsor
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Mon, 08 Sep 1997 09:40:27 -0400

Just received the following from Head, Research Dept, Cambridge U.
Pretty definitive, what?

ctc@ula.cam.ac.uk wrote:

> Dear Diana Rosenberg,
>
> The proclamation by King George V "declaring that the name of Windsor
> is to
> be borne by His Royal House and Family and relinquishing the use of
> all
> German titles and dignities" was published in The London gazette of
> Tuesday
> 17th July 1917. Incidentally, 17th June 1917 was a Sunday and
> therefore a
> most unlikely date for a royal proclamation.
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Colin T. Clarkson
> Head of the Reference Department
> Cambridge University Library

Love to all, DKR

Thread:	Prince William
From:	"Barbara" <arque@ioda.telnet.com.br>	Date:	Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:43:15 +3:00

I would like to know if someone has the correct data about
Prince William (born in June 1982), not only because he is
the son of Princess Diana, but also because he was born in
that year, where we did multiple conjunctions of several
planets. I'm keeping an eye in that children born in that
year...

thanks

Barbara
___________________________
Barbara Abramo
e-mail: arque@telnet.com.br
UIN (ICQ): 805212
Arque Astrologia:
http://telnet.com.br/~arque/arque.htm

Thread:	William a Gemini???
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Sun, 07 Sep 1997 13:35:19 -0400

Late last night I watched an interview with someone or other who was "a
friend of Diana" - she talked about how Diana spoke of William as "a
typical Gemini" - ??? Unless my computer has sprung a leak, Wills is a
Cancer - can anyone explain this? DKR

Thread:	Diana
From:	Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au>	Date:	Sun, 07 Sep 1997 10:52:02

Dear Jude,

Diana herself refused the services of the Royal Protection Service. She
only had this when in the company of the young princes.

Miriam

>If press reports over in the U.S. are true that Diana by
>virtue of that divorce agreement was denied
>the services of Royal Protection Service, the chart for that
>divorce agreement and the chart for the U.K. will likely have
>an interesting story to tell. A question that comes to my mind is why
>didn't the government override that agreement with respect to protection
given
>Diana's well-established problems with the yellow journalists by that time?
>Would seem to me the real government in the U.K. failed her in the most
sgrievous manner possible in
>this respect. Questions of that nature should be raised and answered in
places
>where they'll count or I fear there'll be three ghosts in need of rest
frequenting
>that tunnel site in France in years to come.
>//eoj
>
>jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>
>
>Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional! :-))
>
>
>
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.

Thread:	Saros Tape
From:	Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au>	Date:	Sun, 07 Sep 1997 10:45:17

Dear listers,

I have a tape of Bernadette Brady on the Saros Cycles. Anyone interested
please contact me for details.

Love from over here,
Miriam
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.

Thread:	Transiting Jupiter opposing Mercury/Pluto
From:	SUNREGULUS@aol.com	Date:	Sun, 7 Sep 1997 05:22:39 -0400 (EDT)

I will have transiting Jupiter (2) opposing my natal Pluto (8) which is also
conjunct Mercury (8) by 1 degree. Can someone shed light on this aspect for
me? 8/22/1946
4.10P Manhattan Ny

SUNREGULUS

Thread:	Saros
From:	Anne Fryer <afryer@adl.auslink.net>	Date:	Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:41:36 +0930

Someone requested info on the Saros Cycles - Bernadette Brady does a chapter
on them in her book The Eagle and the Lark - and Gemini Tapes has a casette
out by her on the subject. Try cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au for more information.

Hope this helps. bye

Thread:	Oops!
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Sat, 06 Sep 1997 22:29:19 -0400

Put it down to Mercury rx, or Saturn sitting on the ruler of my 3rd:
Spica is 23Libra 48 now. Diana's MC (23Libra03, 1961) corrects to
23Libra33 now. Venus at start of funeral, 23Libra17.
My Virgo planets insisted that I correct this! Love, DKR

Thread:	Di's data
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Sat, 06 Sep 1997 20:40:07 -0400

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Dear Lilly folk;
> A message just came thru asking for Heaton's "reasons & sources":

Mr Heaton sent me the following message and article called "The Death of
Princess Diana" - (please do not use any of this without his permission,
as it was sent personally and I do not know whether he plans to publish
it).Before I hit the "quote" button, I want to add something. The 7:45
(19:45 BST) time puts 23Lib03 on Di's MC - this is the degree of Spica,
Alpha Virginis, a first magnitude star that is at the ecliptic; this is
the star Lilly called "The Virgin's Spike," and he mentioned it 18 times
in Christian Astrology, more than any other star. Among other things, it
offers "ecclesiastical preferment" (p 620). See also pp 115, 145, 537,
616, 667, 678-9, 690, 701, & 707.
Adding 16 minutes of precession correction to her MC of 23Lib03 it comes
to 23Lib19; at the start of the funeral procession this morning, Venus
was coming to ascension at 23Lib17. I believe this is alone is enough to
support the 7:45 PM birth time. Check the above pages - you'll see what
I mean.

> (This position of Venus today also honors the passing of Mother
> Theresa; what an extraordinary day!)
>
> Here is what Garry Heaton sent me:
>
> > Garry Heaton
> > London
> > 113205.2777@compuserve.com
> >
> > Dear Diana
> >
> > I'm circulating this article amongst a handful of American
> astrologers to
> > counter idea, popularised by Penny Thornton on American chat shows,
> that
> > Princess Diana was born at 14.00 or 14.15. Most of us over here,
> including
> > Buckingham Palace and Diana's long-serving personal astrologer,
> Debbie
> > Frank, believe she was born at 19.45 with 18 SAG 24 rising. The rest
> of the
> > article suggests why this is the correct birth-time in the light of
> recent
> > events.
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Garry
> >
> > THE DEATH of PRINCESS DIANA
> >
> > CHART DATA
> >
> > Princess Diana: 1st July, 1961 / 19.45 BST / Sandringham [ 52N50
> 0E30 ]
> > / ASC: 18 SAG 24
> > Source: Buckingham Palace & personal astrologer Debbie Frank
> >
> > Dodi Fayed: 15th April, 1955 / Alexandria [ 31N12 29E54 ] /
> rectified to
> > 20.16 [32] (-2 hrs)
> > ASC: 18 SCO 41 / Source: TIMES obituary
> >
> > Fatal Crash: 31st August, 1997 / 00.27 (-2 hrs) / Paris [ 48N52
> 2E20 ] /
> > ASC: 18 GEM 12
> > Source: Paris Ritz Camera and TIMES account of emergency phone call
>
> >
> > Solar Eclipse: 2nd September, 1997 / 00.52 BST / Westminster [
> 51N30 0W8
> > ] / ASC: 10 CAN 26
> >
> > Prince William: 21st June, 1982 / 21.03 BST / Paddington [ 51N31
> 0W11 ] /
> > ASC: 27 SAG 28
> > Source: Nicholas Campion quotes Buckingham Palace
> >
> > Prince Henry: 15th September, 1984 / 16.20 BST / Paddington [
> 51N31 0W11
> > ] / ASC: 11 CAP 24
> > Source: Nicholas Campion quotes Buckingham Palace
> >
> > As the world laments the cruel twist of fate which deprived Princess
> Diana
> > of her new-found happiness astrologers will inevitably be asked
> whether her
> > life was destined to end so suddenly. Diana never seemed to have
> real love
> > in her life. Her early years were largely devoid of affection and
> her
> > marriage to Charles soon dissolved into a loveless cold war. Nor was
> her
> > affair with James Hewitt the romantic escape she hoped it would be
> for he
> > would soon betray her to the press for personal gain. Finally she
> found
> > Dodi Fayed, son of the Harrods tycoon. Though many doubted the
> sincerity of
> > the playboy's affections it seemed to all who observed her every
> movement
> > through they eye of the lens that Diana had at last found real love.
> Yet,
> > in the last moments of their lives it seemed as if fate beckoned
> them away
> > from the gaze of the world and over the edge of Lovers' Leap.
> >
> > Although the crash which ended her life on 31st August was an
> accident
> > astrologers can say with confidence that the timing certainly
> wasn't. Diana
> > Spencer was born on 1st July, 1961 at Sandringham [ 52N50 ; 0E30 ].
> Two
> > birth-times have been suggested - 14.00 and 19.45 BST . The first,
> which
> > yields a Libra ascendant, was given by Roger Elliot from sources
> close to
> > the Princess when her engagement to Prince Charles was anounced but
> was
> > quickly corrected by Buckingham Palace. Penny Thornton published the
> 19.45
> > time, giving a Sagittarian ascendant, in her book "Synastry" in
> 1986 but
> > in 1992 claimed Diana's true birth-time was 14.00. Diana herself has
> given
> > both times on different occasions but her long-time friend and
> astrologer
> > Debbie Frank insists the 19.45 time originally confirmed by the
> Palace is
> > correct. I have chosen the 19.45 chart to represent Diana as I think
> the
> > resulting progressions and return charts are overwhelming.
> >
> > Of the main house systems Porphyry, Alcabitius, Placidus,
> Regiomontanus &
> > Campanus all place Uranus, the North Node, Mars & Pluto in the 8th
> house of
> > death. Only Koch and Equal houses show an empty 8th house. I will be
>
> > refering to Porphyry house cusps for the rest of this article.
> >
> > The 1st and 8th houses are most important in analysing death but the
> 4th is
> > also significant. Saturn and Pluto are universal significators of
> death and
> > I find the quincunx aspect appears frequently in this kind of event.
> The
> > nodal axis is also important. Diana's 8th house of death contains
> Uranus,
> > the North Node, Mars & Pluto, all of which become significators. The
> last
> > degree of Cancer is on the 8th cusp so the Moon is also involved in
> the
> > scenario. For the 1st house we have retrograde Jupiter ruling the
> ascendant
> > and Saturn just inside the 1st though close to the 2nd. Notice
> Jupiter in
> > quincunx aspect with Pluto in the 8th and activated by transiting
> Uranus
> > at 5 AQU 30. The 1st and 8th houses become connected.
> >
> > PROGRESSIONS & TRANSITS
> >
> > I have always found progressed mutual aspects to be as relevant as
> aspects
> > to natal positions and Diana's chart proves the point. 4 progressed
> factors
> > line-up in a dramatic FINGER of FATE configuration at the time of
> her
> > death. Progressing the angles by Kepler's solar arc in right
> ascension -
> > the only method which accurately represents the true solar day (1)
> - we
> > find 29 SCO 40 on the MC and 24 CAP 50 rising. Progressed Saturn is
> > retrograde at 25 CAP 12 so we have the planet of mortality casting a
> shadow
> > over the point of life. This symbolism is repeated by the transit of
> Saturn
> > at 19 ARI 39 approximately trine the natal ascendant. The progressed
> finger
> > of fate is completed by progressed Uranus at 25 LEO 23 and the
> progressed
> > Moon at 24 GEM 47. Here we have two 8th house significators making
> quincunx
> > aspects to the two 1st house factors but there is even more in
> Diana's
> > progressed chart. Below is a list of progressed 8th house cusps by
> the main
> > quadrant systems:
> >
> > PORPHYRY: 6 VIR 27
> >
> > ALCABITIUS: 5 VIR 11
> >
> > PLACIDUS: 25 VIR 33
> >
> > REGIOMONTANUS: 24 VIR 33
> >
> > CAMPANUS: 20 LIB 24
> >
> > KOCH: 0 VIR 32
> >
> > By the Porphyry method the progressed 8th cusp conjoins both natal
> and
> > progressed Pluto. The Alcabitius progressed 8th conjoins natal Pluto
> but
> > not progressed Pluto so does not show a contact in the progressed
> chart
> > itself. None of the other methods show a conjunction with anything
> so I
> > think this simple Hellenistic method of trisecting a quadrant into 3
> equal
> > parts still has much to recommend it.
> >
> > Since the progressed finger of fate is at 24/25 degrees the planets
> > involved all aspect natal Venus in the 5th house of love affairs at
> 24 TAU
> > 25. Even progressed Mars, the only 8th house factor not yet
> mentioned,
> > aspects Venus by trine from 23 VIR 40 so the stage was certainly set
> for
> > the great romance. Marriage was probable but for the disaster when
> we
> > consider progressed Venus (3 CAN 45) conjuct natal Mercury, ruler
> and
> > occupant of the 7th house. Progressed Mercury (5 LEO 50) also
> aspected
> > natal Jupiter - another marriage indicator though one beset by much
> > conflict and opposition from others.
> >
> > It seems to have been transiting Pluto, at 2 SAG 56, which put an
> end to
> > her relationship with its quincunx to Mercury and its approximate
> square to
> > violent Mars in the 8th. Mars and Pluto are conjuct at birth, giving
> extra
> > 8th house weight to the transiting square. Mars, as 8th house
> significator
> > was also active by transit, trining the Sun from 10 SCO 28. The Sun
> can
> > also be taken as another death planet here as Leo is intercepted in
> the
> > 8th. The nature of the aspect is secondary to the fact that, again,
> two 8th
> > house factors come together. If we allow a slightly wider orb of 1.5
>
> > degrees we also find another 8th house pair - transiting Sun (7 VIR
> 35)
> > separating from a conjunction with Pluto. I sometimes think even the
> cosmos
> > often has a problem getting everything to within one degree !
> >
> > Another quincunx - transiting Uranus (5 AQU 30) to natal Pluto -
> brought
> > two 8th house significators into deadly relationship but the sudden,
>
> > accidental death her 8th house Uranus carried with it was delivered
> first
> > to Jupiter, her ruler, by conjunction. Her other 1st house planet,
> Saturn,
> > also received a conjunction - from Neptune the great loosener of
> ties. WIth
> > Saturn in her 1st house, Neptune brought her glamorous image from
> its natal
> > position in the 10th, down to her body to be cast in stone (Saturn).
> She
> > was released from the ties to her life and the body which she tried
> so hard
> > to discipline into what she wanted it to be.
> >
> > SOLAR RETURN
> >
> > Diana's solar return, relocated for her residence at Kensington
> Palace
> > (51N30 0W12), shows the early degrees of Libra rising - the
> beginning of a
> > relationship. Venus, in royal Leo, is in the 11th house of social
> activity
> > but is exactly square to deadly Pluto in the 3rd house of transport
> & short
> > journeys. The exactness of the aspect is alarming but not enough in
> itself
> > to show death. What is more ominous is that this Venus is in the
> natal 8th
> > house.
> >
> > Mars rising rules her 7th house of relationships and marriage but it
> is
> > fallen and squares the Sun in the 10th house of reputation. This
> Mars was
> > therefore a dangerous one despite its romantic sextile with Venus.
> Saturn,
> > also in fall, is in the 7th so either her partner was unsuitable and
> a
> > danger to her life or the relationship was fated. My personal view
> is that
> > this solar return was warning her against an unsuitable partner. The
> danger
> > to her life is written clearly in this chart with the Moon in the
> 8th house
> > conjunct the fixed star Alcyone of the Pleiades - the weeping
> sisters. The
> > Moon right at the end of the sign yet still in close aspect to
> retrograde
> > Neptune in the 4th house of endings. She did, after all, die through
>
> > someone else's carelessness and alcoholic excess.
> >
> > LUNAR RETURN
> >
> > Her lunar return again has Libra rising with Mars in the 1st house,
> this
> > time squaring Uranus in the 4th house of endings. Venus is in the
> 12th
> > house of self-undoing and Saturn is again in the 7th, this time
> retrograde
> > and exactly opposing the rising degree - a danger to life. Neptune
> is also
> > on the same angle as in the solar return figure, this time within
> about one
> > degree. The paran created here by Saturn and Neptune could be taken
> as a
> > warning against lax security standards but there is something about
> it all
> > which implies the end of a glamorous life. Her lunar return is an
> exact
> > full moon. She has shone as brightly as she can in the 5th house of
> love
> > affairs and can only wane.
> >
> > DODI FAYED
> >
> > As I write all that is known is that Dodi Fayed was born on 15th
> April,
> > 1955 in Alexandria, Egypt [ 31N12 29E54 ] which was 2 hours ahead
> of GMT.
> > However, a plausible rectification of a ballpark ascendant is not
> too
> > difficult since the Moon at noon in Alexandria that day was in the
> 25th
> > degree of Capricorn. Neptune, at 26 LIB 55, closely squares this
> degree and
> > also opposes the Sun at 24 ARI 40, so it's a fair assumption that
> Dodi's
> > dominant Neptune would be playing a part in this dramatic sequence
> of
> > events. Since a princess is involved I will assume that transiting
> Neptune,
> > at 27 CAP 35, conjoins his Moon by transit. This gives Scorpio and
> > Sagittarius as the likely rising signs.
> >
> > An ascendant in mid-Scorpio puts the South Node in Gemini in the 8th
> house
> > with Mercury in Aries in 6th or 5th, ruling the 8th. Progressions
> for the
> > date of the crash show Mercury [ 27 GEM 3 ] approaching natal South
> Node
> > and conjunct the progressed Node [ 26 GEM 35 ]. Mercury is
> descriptive of
> > the manner of his death - a speeding car with natal Mercury in
> Aries.
> >
> > To fine-tune the rectifiction a diurnal chart is useful but my
> preference
> > is for the true solar day diurnal and not the artificial, clock-time
>
> > diurnal mentioned in most books. The astronomically-based true solar
> day is
> > not the same as our 24-hour clock day but is one complete revolution
> of the
> > earth relative to the Sun. Because the earth's annual orbit around
> the Sun
> > is slightly elliptical the length of the true solar day varies
> slightly
> > from day to day. It is measured by the distance, in right
> ascension,
> > between the Sun and the meridian. When this repeats each day after
> birth
> > one diurnal cycle is complete. To erect a true solar day diurnal
> find the
> > distance in RA between the natal Sun and mid-heaven. Next find the
> RA of
> > the Sun in the clock-based diurnal and add/subtract the Sun/meridian
> arc in
> > RA. This gives you the RAMC of the diurnal. Convert this into
> longitude in
> > a table of right ascension and derive the ascendant from the table
> of
> > houses.
> >
> > Dodi Fayed's diurnal chart for the day of the crash shows retrograde
> Saturn
> > in Aries near the ascendant. A birth-time of 20.16 [32] puts Saturn
> on the
> > ascendant in both the natal and diurnal charts with Pluto exactly on
> the
> > natal MC. The resulting chart, with 18 SCO 41 rising shows Mars,
> ruler of
> > the ascendant, in Gemini in the 7th disposed by Mercury in impulsive
> Aries
> > in the 5th house of love affairs.
> >
> > SYNASTRY
> >
> > Since their romance blossomed in July the media has speculated
> whether
> > Diana had at last found true love. Dodi's flamboyant playboy
> lifestyle
> > caused many to fear Diana was heading for another broken heart and
> it did
> > not go unnoticed how Dodi's father, who is still without valid UK
> > citizenship, would benefit from the liaison. Astrologically their
> > relationship is full of conflicts which would put the most committed
> couple
> > to the test. Diana's Saturn is conjunct Doid's Moon and thereby also
> in
> > hard aspect to his Sun, Neptune and Uranus which form a grand cross.
> She
> > would try to put an end to his playboy lifestyle but the restriction
> might
> > be too much for him in the long run. He would find the limitation of
> his
> > freedom very difficult once the honeymoon period was over. Dodi's
> Mars
> > squares Diana's Mars / Pluto conjunction, both in mutable Mercurial
> signs.
> > This would produce considerable verbal aggression when conflicts
> arose but
> > Diana's Mars / Pluto combination would dominate ultimately. Sexually
> the
> > aspect could be exciting but it does not encourage constancy of
> feeling.
> >
> > With Mercury in Cancer in the 7th Diana needs a partner who shares
> the same
> > interests and who can talk to her emotionally. However her Mercury,
> at 3
> > CAN 12, and Sun, at 9 CAN 40, make no major aspects to anything in
> Dodi's
> > chart so it is hard to imagine how a lasting interest could be
> sustained.
> > Diana's friendly, humanitarian Moon at 25 AQU 2 harmonises with
> Dodi's Sun
> > at 25 ARI 0 so the chivalrous, action-driven side of his nature
> would help
> > Diana's successful public image. I imagine he would play an active
> role in
> > her charitable causes but Dodi's Saturn, at 19 SCO 33, and Pluto, at
> 24 LEO
> > 23, afflict Diana's Moon and pose serious problems in emotional
> > compatability. Considering Diana's Saturn is also conjunct Dodi's
> Moon the
> > relationship would tend to become cold and emotionally stifling in
> the long
> > run. The needs of each partner would tend to be denied by the other.
> Since
> > each has the Moon opposite Uranus the stifling effect of Saturn
> would
> > provoke a separative reaction. Each would react by insisting on
> their own
> > freedom so living together would be difficult.
> >
> > Diana's Venus also receives close hard aspects from Dodi's Pluto and
> Saturn
> > but is relieved by a trine to his Moon. Both are in earth signs so
> they
> > would enjoy physical comforts and a sensual love life some of the
> time but
> > Diana's need for security in love would be denied by the hard
> aspects. The
> > Moon's nature is fluctuating and inconstant so the satisfaction the
> trine
> > gives comes and goes between the rejection Saturn's opposition can
> bring.
> > Their Venus positions form a 5-degree sextile so Diana's traditional
>
> > marriage values would be well-received by Dodi's romantic
> affections.
> >
> > The strongest bond between them is the trine between their ascendant
>
> > rulers. Diana's Jupiter [ 5 AQU 5 ] in her 2nd house trines Dodi's
> Mars [3
> > GEM 14] in the 7th house. This combination assists Diana's
> humanitarian
> > fund-raising activities. Dodi's Mars is well-placed for a working
> > partnership in public relations but Diana's Jupiter is also spurred
> on by
> > Dodi's risk-taking. This aspect was probably responsible for Diana
> putting
> > her trust in Dodi when he arranged the transport which ended their
> lives.
> > Mars in Gemini in the 7th acted on behalf of the partner and Diana's
>
> > Jupiter gave the go-ahead.
> >
> > THE EVENT CHART
> >
> > The car which killed Diana, Dodi and the chauffeur crashed at 00.27
> (22.27
> > GMT) on 31st August, 1997 in Paris [ 48N52 ; 2E20 ]. 18 GEM 12
> rises - the
> > sign of the media - ruled by Mercury the winged messengers who
> chased the
> > saloon car on their motorbikes into the fatal tunnel alongside the
> River
> > Seine. Just as the dying light of the Sun sets on the western
> horizon so
> > here Diana's ascendant degree is setting at the end of an
> illustrious life.
> > Mercury, as ruler of the ascendant, is the car that crashed and all
> who
> > died with it. Here we find Mercury strong in technically competent
> Virgo
> > but retrograding from a sextile to Mars and crashing into combustion
> with
> > the Sun. We should also note that the event took place on a Saturn
> day and
> > at 00.05 the Mars hour began. Remember, the planetary day begins
> with
> > sunrise. Both malefics ruled this period of time and with the
> ascendant
> > ruler retrograding from Mars and into the Sun the volatile nature of
> the
> > period was magnified.
> >
> > The 4th & 8th houses are both connected with death. Here the Moon in
> Leo on
> > the IC is Diana, the "Queen of Hearts", the royal woman whose life
> ended in
> > the 4th house. She applies to Venus in Libra in the 5th house of
> romance as
> > she speeds away in the car to be with her lover. The reaction to her
> death
> > is shown by the Moon's close opposition to retrograde Jupiter in
> Aquarius,
> > conjunct the MC. The injustices of media intrusion into the lives of
>
> > royalty and the famous are questioned, with the possibility of new
> > legislation suggested by some politicians.
> >
> > The 3 planets in the 4th house can be taken as the 3 people who were
> killed
> > in the crash. If the Moon is Diana and Mercury is the chauffeur then
> the
> > Sun must be Dodi. Mercury is overpowered by the Sun's rays so it's
> > possible that the chauffeur, though drunk at the time, could have
> been
> > acting under Dodi Fayed's directions when he raced away from the
> paparazzi
> > motor cyclists at 120 mph. Notice also the chain of dispositors.
> Diana, the
> > Moon, is disposed by the Sun, her lover Dodi but he, in turn, is
> disposed
> > by retrograde Mercury, the chauffeur. Mercury is also applying to a
> > parallel with Saturn (45 ' orb) and Saturn rules the 8th house of
> death and
> > is also the universal significator of mortaility. So the driver
> causes the
> > death of the Prince and Princess (Sun & Moon) whilst ending his own
> life.
> >
> > The Sun was applying to a contraparallel with Pluto in the 6th house
> of
> > servants (8' orb), having separated from a square on the 26th. Dodi
> could
> > have been intent on wielding his influence and trying to impress
> Diana by
> > forcing the chauffeur to ignore the speed limit. Although Venus is
> almost 4
> > degrees away from the opposition with Saturn, the contraparallel
> between
> > them is less than 1 degree, making the impact more immediate. In a
> natal
> > horoscope this aspect often shows nothing more than hard lessons in
> love
> > but in an event chart such as this it suggests the relationship was
> fated.
> >
> > SOLAR ECLIPSE
> >
> > 2 days after the fatal crash there was a solar eclipse at 9 VIR 34
> which,
> > when cast for Westminster, gives an ascendant of 10 CAN 26 -
> conjunct
> > Diana's natal Sun at 9 CAN 40. The Moon was again conjunct the IC at
> 7 VIR
> > 20 as was retrograde Mercury at 6 VIR 53 so many of the features of
> the
> > crash chart repeated at the time of the eclipse. The caring
> qualities and
> > public appeal for which she became famous rose with her Cancerian
> Sun's
> > degree with the eclipsed lights in Virgo on the IC announcing the
> end of a
> > great woman whose joy in life was to serve and care for the sick.
> >
> > PRINCE WILLIAM
> >
> > Born on 21st June, 1982 at 21.03 BST in Paddington [ 51N31 0W11 ],
> the
> > significators for William's mother are Mars and Pluto, rulers of the
> 10th
> > house, Jupiter close to the MC and the Moon. The death of the mother
> is
> > shown by the 5th house (8th from the 10th) and William's 5th is
> ruled by
> > Venus in the 5th in a FINGER of FATE pattern with the rising
> Neptune and
> > Pluto in the 9th. As Pluto is one of the significators of William's
> mother
> > there is a possible death signature in this pattern.
> >
> > His Moon is also afflicted twice. Though strong in Cancer,
> reflecting
> > Diana's natal Sun and Mercury, William's Moon has not yet seperated
> from
> > the shadow of the eclipse and is also squared by Mars in Libra.
> Mars, ruler
> > of the mother / 10th applies to a conjunction with Saturn of
> mortality and
> > the timing of this aspect perfects by secondary progression as the
> pair are
> > separated by only 10' of arc on the day of the crash. The 4th house
> is also
> > connected with death so Jupiter, ruler of the 4th from the 10th and
> > conjunct the MC is another fateful testimony.
> >
> > Capricorn is also intercepted in the 4th from the 10th so Saturn
> also
> > signifies the end of the mother's life.
> > Progressed Sun, at 14 CAN 36, squared Saturn whilst the converse
> mid-heaven
> > [ 15 LIB 44 ] also formed a conjunction. The MC itself also
> represents the
> > mother. The conjunction of transiting Venus [ 15 LIB 47 ] with this
> > progressed aspects adds weight to the fateful testimony since we
> have
> > already established that Venus rules the 8th from the 10th. This
> kind of
> > astrology shows us quite clearly that transiting planets bring with
> them
> > the issues they signify in the natal chart.
> >
> > We have already seen the applying conjunction of Mars and Saturn
> become
> > close to exact on the day of the event and by converse secondary
> > progressions the Moon / Mars square also closes in. Converse Mars
> had
> > reached 4 LIB 10 when William learned of his mother's death - only
> 47'
> > minutes from exactitude. What was signified approximately at birth
> became
> > reality when the aspects tightened-up. bbb We have already seen the
> power
> > of the quincunx in Diana's natal and progressed chart as well as in
> the
> > FINGER of FATE in William's natal chart. However, the most
> convincing
> > evidence for the power of this aspect in death patterns must surely
> be the
> > transit of Uranus [ 5 AQU 30 ] quincunx William's natal Moon.
> >
> > PRINCE HENRY
> >
> > Henry , the youngest of Diana's two children, was born on 15th
> September,
> > 1984, at 16.20 BST in Paddington Hospital [ 51N31 0W11 ]. The Moon
> is a
> > singleton in the 4th house, exalted in Taurus but almost 8 degrees
> from the
> > North Node which is conjunct the fixed star Alcyone, the Weeping
> Sisters,
> > which featured in Diana's solar return. Vedic astrologers say the
> lights
> > suffer from being too close to the nodes as the dragon devours the
> lights,
> > creating eclipses. Western astrology recognises the karmic
> significance of
> > the nodes and prominent directions involving the nodes support the
> theory
> > that they represent points of entry and exit between the physical
> and the
> > astral world.
> >
> > William's Moon in Cancer is the same distance from the North Node as
>
> > Henry's and both have the Moon in a sign of dignity befitting
> Diana's
> > exalted reputation. The parallel progressions involving the nodes
> are quite
> > striking and confirm the power of these points in signifiying death.
>
> > Henry's progressed IC, at 28 TAU 28, is conjunct progressed North
> Node, at
> > 28 TAU 44, and close to the natal position. In William's chart it is
> the
> > progressed descendant, at 12 CAN 55, which conjoins the North Node.
> In
> > both charts the angular cusp behind the Moon and North Node
> progresses to
> > the node on the event date.
> >
> > Henry also has Scorpio on the MC so Mars and Pluto also signify his
> mother.
> > Mercury rules the 8th from the 10th and at 5 VIR 13 Mercury is
> square
> > Uranus of accidents. The power of this aspect becomes apparent at
> the event
> > when transiting Uranus [5 AQU 50] formed a quincunx to Mercury.
> Progressed
> > Mercury [ 25 VIR 59 ] and progressed Mars [ 25 SAG 28 ] also squared
>
> > one-another bringing Henry's mother (10th ruler) into contact with
> death
> > (ruler of 8th from 10th). For a third testimony there was converse
> Mars [
> > 8 SAG 56 ] conjoining natal Uranus, bringing the mother into contact
> with
> > the Mercury / Uranus death pattern.
> >
> > The power of the Porphyry cusps is also evident in Henry's chart
> with
> > progressed Moon, at 23 SCO 56, squaring the 8th house cusp, at 23
> LEO 17.
> > As the 5th cusp signifies the mother's death its progression to 17
> GEM 24
> > is also striking in its opposition to Mars, the mother.
> >
> > The royal family and the world which loved Diana now has the long,
> > difficult period of mourning ahead. Perhaps it is only astrology
> which can
> > relieve the sense of futility surrounding Diana's untimely death.
> With so
> > many horoscopes anouncing the danger to her life it is possible to
> conclude
> > that her death was written in the stars. Although the anguished
> "why" of
> > her death remains unanswered the cosmic timing cannot be mistaken.
> Her
> > chauffeur was not the only driver behind the wheel of fate.
> >
> > (1) To progress the angles by solar arc in right ascension find the
> > difference between the natal Sun in RA and the progressed Sun in RA.
> Add
> > this arc to the RA of the natal MC to give the progressed MC in RA.
> Derive
> > the ecliptic longitude of the progressed MC from a table of right
> ascension
> > and the corresponding ascendant from a table of houses.
>
> Love, DKR, ferocious starperson

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<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Dear Lilly folk;
 A message just came thru asking for Heaton's "reasons & sources":</BLOCKQUOTE>
Mr Heaton sent me the following message and article called "The Death of
Princess Diana" - (please do not use any of this without his permission,
as it was sent personally and I do not know whether he plans to publish
it).Before I hit the "quote" button, I want to add something. The 7:45
(19:45 BST) time puts 23Lib03 on Di's MC - this is the degree of Spica,
Alpha Virginis, a first magnitude star that is at the ecliptic; this is
the star Lilly called "The Virgin's Spike," and he mentioned it 18 times
in Christian Astrology, more than any other star. Among other things, it
offers "ecclesiastical preferment" (p 620). See also pp 115, 145, 537,
616, 667, 678-9, 690, 701, & 707.
 Adding 16 minutes of precession correction to her MC of 23Lib03 it
comes to 23Lib19; at the start of the funeral procession this morning,
Venus was coming to ascension at 23Lib17. I believe this is alone is enough
to support the 7:45 PM birth time. Check the above pages - you'll see what
I mean.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>(This position of Venus today also honors the passing
of Mother Theresa; what an extraordinary day!)

Here is what Garry Heaton sent me:

> Garry Heaton
 > London
 > 113205.2777@compuserve.com
 >
 > Dear Diana
 >
 > I'm circulating this article amongst a handful of American astrologers
to
 > counter idea, popularised by Penny Thornton on American chat shows,
that
 > Princess Diana was born at 14.00 or 14.15. Most of us over here,
including
 > Buckingham Palace and Diana's long-serving personal astrologer, Debbie
 > Frank, believe she was born at 19.45 with 18 SAG 24 rising. The rest
of the
 > article suggests why this is the correct birth-time in the light
of recent
 > events.
 >
 > Best wishes
 >
 > Garry
 >
 > THE DEATH of PRINCESS DIANA
 >
 > CHART DATA
 >
 > Princess Diana:  1st July, 1961 / 19.45 BST / Sandringham 
[ 52N50  0E30 ]
 > / ASC: 18 SAG 24
 > Source:  Buckingham Palace & personal astrologer Debbie
Frank
 >
 > Dodi Fayed:  15th April, 1955 / Alexandria [ 31N12  29E54
] /  rectified to
 > 20.16 [32] (-2 hrs)
 > ASC: 18 SCO 41 / Source:  TIMES obituary
 >
 > Fatal Crash:  31st August, 1997 / 00.27 (-2 hrs) / Paris [ 48N52 
2E20 ] /
 > ASC:   18 GEM 12
 > Source:  Paris Ritz Camera and TIMES account of emergency phone
call
 >
 > Solar Eclipse:  2nd September, 1997 / 00.52 BST / Westminster 
[ 51N30  0W8
 > ] / ASC: 10 CAN 26
 >
 > Prince William:  21st June, 1982 / 21.03 BST / Paddington [
51N31  0W11 ] /
 > ASC:  27 SAG 28
 > Source: Nicholas Campion quotes Buckingham Palace
 >
 > Prince Henry:  15th September, 1984 / 16.20 BST / Paddington 
[ 51N31  0W11
 > ] / ASC:  11 CAP 24
 > Source:  Nicholas Campion quotes Buckingham Palace
 >
 > As the world laments the cruel twist of fate which deprived Princess
Diana
 > of her new-found happiness astrologers will inevitably be asked whether
her
 > life was destined to end so suddenly. Diana never seemed to have
real love
 > in her life. Her early years were largely devoid of affection and
her
 > marriage to Charles soon dissolved into a loveless cold war. Nor
was her
 > affair with James Hewitt the romantic escape she hoped it would be
for he
 > would soon betray her to the press for personal gain. Finally she
found
 > Dodi Fayed, son of the Harrods tycoon. Though many doubted the sincerity
of
 > the playboy's affections it seemed to all who observed her every
movement
 > through they eye of the lens that Diana had at last found real love.
Yet,
 > in the last moments of their lives it seemed as if fate beckoned
them away
 > from the gaze of the world and over the edge of Lovers' Leap.
 >
 > Although the crash which ended her life on 31st August was an accident
 > astrologers can say with confidence that the timing certainly wasn't.
Diana
 > Spencer was born on 1st July, 1961 at Sandringham [ 52N50 ; 0E30
]. Two
 > birth-times have been suggested - 14.00 and 19.45 BST . The first,
which
 > yields a Libra ascendant, was given by Roger Elliot from sources
close to
 > the Princess when her engagement to Prince Charles was anounced but
was
 > quickly corrected by Buckingham Palace. Penny Thornton published
the 19.45
 > time, giving  a Sagittarian ascendant, in her book "Synastry"
in 1986 but
 > in 1992 claimed Diana's true birth-time was 14.00. Diana herself
has given
 > both times on different occasions but her long-time friend and astrologer
 > Debbie Frank insists the 19.45 time originally confirmed by the Palace
is
 > correct. I have chosen the 19.45 chart to represent Diana as I think
the
 > resulting progressions and return charts are overwhelming.
 >
 > Of the main house systems Porphyry, Alcabitius, Placidus, Regiomontanus
&
 > Campanus all place Uranus, the North Node, Mars & Pluto in the
8th house of
 > death. Only Koch and Equal houses show an empty 8th house. I will
be
 > refering to Porphyry house cusps for the rest of this article.
 >
 > The 1st and 8th houses are most important in analysing death but
the 4th is
 > also significant. Saturn and Pluto are universal significators of
death and
 > I find the quincunx aspect appears frequently in this kind of event.
The
 > nodal axis is also important.  Diana's 8th house of death contains
Uranus,
 > the North Node, Mars & Pluto, all of which become significators.
The last
 > degree of Cancer is on the 8th cusp so the Moon is also involved
in the
 > scenario. For the 1st house we have retrograde Jupiter ruling the
ascendant
 > and Saturn just inside the 1st though close to the 2nd. Notice Jupiter
in
 > quincunx aspect with Pluto in the 8th and activated by transiting 
Uranus
 > at 5 AQU 30. The  1st and 8th houses become connected.
 >
 > PROGRESSIONS & TRANSITS
 >
 > I have always found progressed mutual aspects to be as relevant as
aspects
 > to natal positions and Diana's chart proves the point. 4 progressed
factors
 > line-up in a dramatic FINGER of  FATE configuration at the time
of her
 > death. Progressing the angles by Kepler's solar arc in right ascension
-
 > the only method which accurately represents the true solar day (1) 
- we
 > find 29 SCO 40 on the MC and 24 CAP 50 rising. Progressed Saturn
is
 > retrograde at 25 CAP 12 so we have the planet of mortality casting
a shadow
 > over the point of life. This symbolism is repeated by the transit
of Saturn
 > at 19 ARI 39 approximately trine the natal ascendant. The progressed
finger
 > of fate is completed by progressed Uranus at 25 LEO 23 and the progressed
 > Moon at 24 GEM 47. Here we have two 8th house significators making
quincunx
 > aspects to the two 1st house factors but there is even more in Diana's
 > progressed chart. Below is a list of progressed 8th house cusps by
the main
 > quadrant systems:
 >
 > PORPHYRY:               
6 VIR 27
 >
 > ALCABITIUS:               
5 VIR 11
 >
 > PLACIDUS:                
25 VIR 33
 >
 > REGIOMONTANUS:  24 VIR 33
 >
 > CAMPANUS:               
20 LIB 24
 >
 > KOCH:                           
0 VIR 32
 >
 > By the Porphyry method the progressed 8th cusp conjoins both natal
and
 > progressed Pluto. The Alcabitius progressed 8th conjoins natal Pluto
but
 > not progressed Pluto so does not show a contact in the progressed
chart
 > itself. None of the other methods show a conjunction with anything
so I
 > think this simple Hellenistic method of trisecting a quadrant into
3 equal
 > parts still has much to recommend it.
 >
 > Since the progressed finger of fate is at 24/25 degrees the planets
 > involved all aspect natal Venus in the 5th house of love affairs
at 24 TAU
 > 25. Even progressed Mars, the only 8th house factor not yet mentioned,
 > aspects Venus by trine from 23 VIR 40 so the stage was certainly
set for
 > the great romance. Marriage was probable but for the disaster when
we
 > consider progressed Venus (3 CAN 45) conjuct natal Mercury, ruler
and
 > occupant of the 7th house. Progressed Mercury (5 LEO 50) also aspected
 > natal Jupiter - another marriage indicator though one beset by much
 > conflict and opposition from others.
 >
 > It seems to have been transiting Pluto, at 2 SAG 56, which put an
end to
 > her relationship with its quincunx to Mercury and its approximate
square to
 > violent Mars in the 8th. Mars and Pluto are conjuct at birth, giving
extra
 > 8th house weight to the transiting square. Mars, as 8th house significator
 > was also active by transit, trining the Sun from 10 SCO 28. The Sun
can
 > also be taken as another death planet here as Leo is intercepted
in the
 > 8th. The nature of the aspect is secondary to the fact that, again,
two 8th
 > house factors come together. If we allow a slightly wider orb of
1.5
 > degrees we also find another 8th house pair - transiting Sun (7 VIR
35)
 > separating from a conjunction with Pluto. I sometimes think even
the cosmos
 > often has a problem getting everything to within one degree !
 >
 >  Another quincunx - transiting Uranus (5 AQU 30) to natal Pluto
- brought
 > two 8th house significators into deadly relationship but the sudden,
 > accidental death her 8th house Uranus carried with it was delivered
first
 > to Jupiter, her ruler, by conjunction. Her other 1st house planet,
Saturn,
 > also received a conjunction - from Neptune the great loosener of
ties. WIth
 > Saturn in her 1st house, Neptune brought her glamorous image from
its natal
 > position in the 10th, down to her body to be cast in stone (Saturn).
She
 > was released from the ties to her life and the body which she tried
so hard
 > to discipline into what she wanted it to be.
 >
 > SOLAR RETURN
 >
 > Diana's solar return, relocated for her residence at Kensington Palace
 > (51N30  0W12), shows the early degrees of Libra rising - the
beginning of a
 > relationship. Venus, in royal Leo, is in the 11th house of social
activity
 > but is exactly square to deadly Pluto in the 3rd house of transport
& short
 > journeys. The exactness of the aspect is alarming but not enough
in itself
 > to show death. What is more ominous is that this Venus is in the
natal 8th
 > house.
 >
 > Mars rising rules her 7th house of relationships and marriage but
it is
 > fallen and squares the Sun in the 10th house of reputation. This
Mars was
 > therefore a dangerous one despite its romantic sextile with Venus.
Saturn,
 > also in fall, is in the 7th so either her partner was unsuitable
and a
 > danger to her life or the relationship was fated. My personal view
is that
 > this solar return was warning her against an unsuitable partner.
The danger
 > to her life is written clearly in this chart with the Moon in the
8th house
 > conjunct the fixed star Alcyone of the Pleiades - the weeping sisters.
The
 > Moon right at the end of the sign yet still in close aspect to retrograde
 > Neptune in the 4th house of endings. She did, after all, die through
 > someone else's carelessness and alcoholic excess.
 >
 > LUNAR RETURN
 >
 > Her lunar return again has Libra rising with Mars in the 1st house,
this
 > time squaring Uranus in the 4th house of endings. Venus is in the
12th
 > house of self-undoing and Saturn is again in the 7th, this time retrograde
 > and exactly opposing the rising degree - a danger to life. Neptune
is also
 > on the same angle as in the solar return figure, this time within
about one
 > degree. The paran created here by Saturn and Neptune could be taken
as a
 > warning against lax security standards but there is something about
it all
 > which implies the end of a glamorous life. Her lunar return is an
exact
 > full moon. She has shone as brightly as she can in the 5th house
of love
 > affairs and can only wane.
 >
 > DODI  FAYED
 >
 > As I write all that is known is that Dodi Fayed was born on 15th
April,
 > 1955 in Alexandria, Egypt [ 31N12  29E54 ] which was 2 hours
ahead of GMT.
 > However, a plausible rectification of a ballpark ascendant is not
too
 > difficult since the Moon at noon in Alexandria that day was in the
25th
 > degree of Capricorn. Neptune, at 26 LIB 55, closely squares this
degree and
 > also opposes the Sun at 24 ARI 40, so it's a fair assumption that
Dodi's
 > dominant Neptune would be playing a part in this dramatic sequence
of
 > events. Since a princess is involved I will assume that transiting
Neptune,
 > at 27 CAP 35, conjoins his Moon by transit. This gives Scorpio and
 > Sagittarius as the likely rising signs.
 >
 > An ascendant in mid-Scorpio puts the South Node in Gemini in the
8th house
 > with Mercury in Aries in 6th or 5th, ruling the 8th. Progressions
for the
 > date of the crash show Mercury [ 27 GEM 3 ] approaching natal South
Node
 > and conjunct the progressed Node [ 26 GEM 35 ]. Mercury is descriptive
of
 > the manner of his death - a speeding car with natal Mercury in Aries.
 >
 > To fine-tune the rectifiction a diurnal chart is useful but my preference
 > is for the true solar day diurnal and not the artificial, clock-time
 > diurnal mentioned in most books. The astronomically-based true solar
day is
 > not the same as our 24-hour clock day but is one complete revolution
of the
 > earth relative to the Sun. Because the earth's annual orbit around
the Sun
 > is slightly elliptical the length of the true solar day varies slightly
 > from day to day. It is measured by the distance, in right  ascension,
 > between the Sun and the meridian. When this repeats each day after
birth
 > one diurnal cycle is complete. To erect a true solar day diurnal
find the
 > distance in RA between the natal Sun and mid-heaven. Next find the
RA of
 > the Sun in the clock-based diurnal and add/subtract the Sun/meridian
arc in
 > RA. This gives you the RAMC of the diurnal. Convert this into longitude
in
 > a table of right ascension and derive the ascendant from the table
of
 > houses.
 >
 > Dodi Fayed's diurnal chart for the day of the crash shows retrograde
Saturn
 > in Aries near the ascendant. A birth-time of 20.16 [32] puts Saturn
on the
 > ascendant in both the natal and diurnal charts with Pluto exactly
on the
 > natal MC. The resulting chart, with 18 SCO 41 rising shows Mars,
ruler of
 > the ascendant, in Gemini in the 7th disposed by Mercury in impulsive
Aries
 > in the 5th house of love affairs.
 >
 > SYNASTRY
 >
 > Since their romance blossomed in July the media has speculated whether
 > Diana had at last found true love. Dodi's flamboyant playboy lifestyle
 > caused many to fear Diana was heading for another broken heart and
it did
 > not go unnoticed how Dodi's father, who is still without valid UK
 > citizenship, would benefit from the liaison. Astrologically their
 > relationship is full of conflicts which would put the most committed
couple
 > to the test. Diana's Saturn is conjunct Doid's Moon and thereby also
in
 > hard aspect to his Sun, Neptune and Uranus which form a grand cross.
She
 > would try to put an end to his playboy lifestyle but the restriction
might
 > be too much for him in the long run. He would find the limitation
of his
 > freedom very difficult once the honeymoon period was over. Dodi's
Mars
 > squares Diana's Mars / Pluto conjunction, both in mutable Mercurial
signs.
 > This would produce considerable verbal aggression when conflicts
arose but
 > Diana's Mars / Pluto combination would dominate ultimately. Sexually
the
 > aspect could be exciting but it does not encourage constancy of feeling.
 >
 > With Mercury in Cancer in the 7th Diana needs a partner who shares
the same
 > interests and who can talk to her emotionally. However her Mercury,
at 3
 > CAN 12, and Sun, at 9 CAN 40, make no major aspects to anything in
Dodi's
 > chart so it is hard to imagine how a lasting interest could be sustained.
 > Diana's friendly, humanitarian Moon at 25 AQU 2 harmonises with Dodi's
Sun
 > at 25 ARI 0 so the chivalrous, action-driven side of his nature would
help
 > Diana's successful public image. I imagine he would play an active
role in
 > her charitable causes but Dodi's Saturn, at 19 SCO 33, and Pluto,
at 24 LEO
 > 23, afflict Diana's Moon and pose serious problems in emotional
 > compatability. Considering Diana's Saturn is also conjunct Dodi's
Moon the
 > relationship would tend to become cold and emotionally stifling in
the long
 > run. The needs of each partner would tend to be denied by the other.
Since
 > each has the Moon opposite Uranus the stifling effect of Saturn would
 > provoke a separative reaction. Each would react by insisting on their
own
 > freedom so living together would be difficult.
 >
 > Diana's Venus also receives close hard aspects from Dodi's Pluto
and Saturn
 > but is relieved by a trine to his Moon. Both are in earth signs so
they
 > would enjoy physical comforts and a sensual love life some of the
time but
 > Diana's need for security in love would be denied by the hard aspects.
The
 > Moon's nature is fluctuating and inconstant so the satisfaction the
trine
 > gives comes and goes between the rejection Saturn's opposition can
bring.
 > Their Venus positions form a 5-degree sextile so Diana's traditional
 > marriage values would be well-received by Dodi's romantic affections.
 >
 > The strongest bond between them is the trine between their ascendant
 > rulers. Diana's Jupiter [ 5 AQU 5 ] in her 2nd house trines Dodi's
Mars [3
 > GEM 14] in the 7th house. This combination assists Diana's humanitarian
 > fund-raising activities. Dodi's Mars is well-placed for a working
 > partnership in public relations but Diana's Jupiter is also spurred
on by
 > Dodi's risk-taking. This aspect was probably responsible for Diana
putting
 > her trust in Dodi when he arranged the transport which ended their
lives.
 > Mars in Gemini in the 7th acted on behalf of the partner and Diana's
 > Jupiter gave the go-ahead.
 >
 > THE  EVENT CHART
 >
 > The car which killed Diana, Dodi and the chauffeur crashed at 00.27
(22.27
 > GMT) on 31st  August, 1997 in Paris [ 48N52 ; 2E20 ]. 18 GEM
12 rises - the
 > sign of the media -  ruled by Mercury the winged messengers
who chased the
 > saloon car on their motorbikes into the fatal tunnel alongside the
River
 > Seine. Just as the dying light of the Sun sets on the western horizon
so
 > here Diana's ascendant degree is setting at the end of an illustrious
life.
 > Mercury, as ruler of the ascendant, is the car that crashed and all
who
 > died with it. Here we find Mercury strong in technically competent
Virgo
 > but retrograding from a sextile to Mars and crashing into combustion
with
 > the Sun. We should also note that the event took place on a Saturn
day and
 > at 00.05 the Mars hour began. Remember, the planetary day begins
with
 > sunrise. Both malefics ruled this period of time and with the ascendant
 > ruler retrograding from Mars and into the Sun the volatile nature
of the
 > period was magnified.
 >
 > The 4th & 8th houses are both connected with death. Here the
Moon in Leo on
 > the IC is Diana, the "Queen of Hearts", the royal woman whose life
ended in
 > the 4th house. She applies to Venus in Libra in the 5th house of
romance as
 > she speeds away in the car to be with her lover. The reaction to
her death
 > is shown by the Moon's close opposition to retrograde Jupiter in
Aquarius,
 > conjunct the MC. The injustices of media intrusion into the lives
of
 > royalty and the famous are questioned, with the possibility of new
 > legislation suggested by some politicians.
 >
 > The 3 planets in the 4th house can be taken as the 3 people who were
killed
 > in the crash. If the Moon is Diana and Mercury is the chauffeur then
the
 > Sun must be Dodi.  Mercury is overpowered by the Sun's rays
so it's
 > possible that the chauffeur, though drunk at the time, could have
been
 > acting under Dodi Fayed's directions when he raced away from the
paparazzi
 > motor cyclists at 120 mph. Notice also the chain of dispositors.
Diana, the
 > Moon, is disposed by the Sun, her lover Dodi but he, in turn, is
disposed
 > by retrograde Mercury, the chauffeur. Mercury is also applying to
a
 > parallel with Saturn (45 ' orb) and Saturn rules the 8th house of
death and
 > is also the universal significator of mortaility. So the driver causes
the
 > death of the Prince and Princess (Sun & Moon) whilst ending his
own life.
 >
 > The Sun was applying to a contraparallel with Pluto in the 6th house
of
 > servants (8' orb), having separated from a square on the 26th. Dodi
could
 > have been intent on wielding his influence and trying to impress
Diana by
 > forcing the chauffeur to ignore the speed limit. Although Venus is
almost 4
 > degrees away from the opposition with Saturn, the contraparallel
between
 > them is less than 1 degree, making the impact more immediate. In
a natal
 > horoscope this aspect often shows nothing more than hard lessons
in love
 > but in an event chart such as this it suggests the relationship was
fated.
 >
 > SOLAR ECLIPSE
 >
 > 2 days after the fatal crash there was a solar eclipse at  9
VIR 34 which,
 > when cast for Westminster, gives an ascendant of  10 CAN 26
- conjunct
 > Diana's natal Sun at 9 CAN 40. The Moon was again conjunct the IC
at 7 VIR
 > 20 as was retrograde Mercury at 6 VIR 53 so many of the features
of the
 > crash chart repeated at the time of the eclipse. The caring qualities
and
 > public appeal for which she became famous rose with her Cancerian
Sun's
 > degree with the eclipsed lights in Virgo on the IC announcing the
end of a
 > great woman whose joy in life was to serve and care for the sick.
 >
 > PRINCE WILLIAM
 >
 > Born on 21st June, 1982 at  21.03 BST in Paddington [ 51N31
0W11 ], the
 > significators for William's mother are Mars and Pluto, rulers of
the 10th
 > house, Jupiter close to the MC and the Moon. The death of the mother
is
 > shown by the 5th house (8th from the 10th) and William's 5th is ruled
by
 > Venus in the 5th in a  FINGER of  FATE pattern with the
rising Neptune and
 > Pluto in the 9th. As Pluto is one of the significators of  William's
mother
 > there is a possible death signature in this pattern.
 >
 > His Moon is also afflicted twice. Though strong in Cancer, reflecting
 > Diana's natal Sun and Mercury, William's Moon has not yet seperated
from
 > the shadow of the eclipse and is also squared by Mars in Libra. Mars,
ruler
 > of the mother / 10th applies to a conjunction with Saturn of mortality
and
 > the timing of this aspect perfects by secondary progression as the
pair are
 > separated by only 10' of arc on the day of the crash. The 4th house
is also
 > connected with death so Jupiter, ruler of the 4th from the 10th and
 > conjunct the MC is another fateful testimony.
 >
 > Capricorn is also intercepted in the 4th from the 10th so Saturn
also
 > signifies the end of the mother's life.
 > Progressed Sun, at 14 CAN 36, squared Saturn whilst the converse
mid-heaven
 > [ 15 LIB 44 ] also formed a conjunction. The MC itself also represents
the
 > mother. The conjunction of transiting Venus [ 15 LIB 47 ] with this
 > progressed aspects adds weight to the fateful testimony since we
have
 > already established that Venus rules the 8th from the 10th. This
kind of
 > astrology shows us quite clearly that transiting planets bring with
them
 > the issues they signify in the natal chart.
 >
 > We have already seen the applying  conjunction of Mars and Saturn
become
 > close to exact on the day of the event and by converse secondary
 > progressions the Moon / Mars square also closes in. Converse Mars 
had
 > reached 4 LIB 10 when William learned of his mother's death - only
47'
 > minutes from exactitude. What  was signified approximately at
birth became
 > reality when the aspects tightened-up. bbb We have already seen the
power
 > of the quincunx in Diana's natal and progressed chart as well as
in the
 > FINGER of FATE in William's natal chart. However, the most convincing
 > evidence for the power of this aspect in death patterns must surely
be the
 > transit of Uranus [ 5 AQU 30 ] quincunx William's natal Moon.
 >
 > PRINCE HENRY
 >
 > Henry , the youngest of Diana's two children, was born on 15th September,
 > 1984, at 16.20 BST in Paddington Hospital [ 51N31 0W11 ]. The Moon
is a
 > singleton in the 4th house, exalted in Taurus but almost 8 degrees
from the
 > North Node which is conjunct the fixed star Alcyone, the Weeping
Sisters,
 > which featured in Diana's solar return. Vedic astrologers say the
lights
 > suffer from being too close to the nodes as the dragon devours the
lights,
 > creating eclipses. Western astrology recognises the karmic significance
of
 > the nodes and prominent directions involving the nodes support the
theory
 > that they represent points of entry and exit between the physical
and the
 > astral world.
 >
 > William's Moon in Cancer is the same distance from the North Node
as
 > Henry's and both have the Moon in a sign of dignity befitting Diana's
 > exalted reputation. The parallel progressions involving the nodes
are quite
 > striking and confirm the power of these points in signifiying death.
 > Henry's progressed IC, at 28 TAU 28, is conjunct progressed North
Node, at
 > 28 TAU 44, and close to the natal position. In William's chart it
is the
 > progressed descendant, at 12 CAN  55, which conjoins the North
Node. In
 > both charts the angular cusp behind the Moon and North Node progresses
to
 > the node on the event date.
 >
 > Henry also has Scorpio on the MC so Mars and Pluto also signify his
mother.
 > Mercury rules the 8th from the 10th and at 5 VIR 13 Mercury is square
 > Uranus of accidents. The power of this aspect becomes apparent at
the event
 > when transiting Uranus [5 AQU 50] formed a quincunx to Mercury. Progressed
 > Mercury [ 25 VIR 59 ] and progressed Mars [ 25 SAG 28 ] also squared
 > one-another bringing Henry's mother (10th ruler) into contact with
death
 > (ruler of 8th from 10th). For a third testimony there was converse 
Mars [
 > 8 SAG 56 ] conjoining natal Uranus, bringing the mother into contact
with
 > the Mercury / Uranus death  pattern.
 >
 > The power of the Porphyry cusps is also evident in Henry's chart
with
 > progressed Moon, at 23 SCO 56, squaring the 8th house cusp, at 23
LEO 17.
 > As the 5th cusp signifies the mother's death its progression to 17
GEM 24
 > is also striking in its opposition to Mars, the mother.
 >
 > The royal family and the world which loved Diana now has the long,
 > difficult period of mourning ahead. Perhaps it is only astrology
which can
 > relieve the sense of futility surrounding Diana's untimely death.
With so
 > many horoscopes anouncing the danger to her life it is possible to
conclude
 > that her death was written in the stars. Although the anguished "why"
of
 > her death remains unanswered the cosmic timing cannot be mistaken.
Her
 > chauffeur was not the only driver behind the wheel of fate.
 >
 > (1) To progress the angles by solar arc in right ascension find the
 > difference between the natal Sun in RA and the progressed Sun in
RA. Add
 > this arc to the RA of the natal MC to give the progressed MC in RA.
Derive
 > the ecliptic longitude of the progressed MC from a table of right
ascension
 > and the corresponding ascendant from a table of houses.

   Love, DKR, ferocious starperson</BLOCKQUOTE>
  </HTML>

--------------B66D30A9FAF40CC9ED8025AC--

Thread:	Royal Family and WWW
From:	Terrell Neuage <neua0002@ist.flinders.edu.au>	Date:	Sat, 06 Sep 1997 16:00:39 +0930

--------
Marc Penfield did a series on the Royal Family published in the
Astological Monthly Review (Australia) during 1995-1996. Originally
published in the USA entitled "Pages from History" and presented in
serialised form in the Astrological Monthly Review.

July 1995 Looking for the rightful Heir to the throne
Sept The Plantagenents
Oct House of Lancaster and York
Nov King Henry and Oliver Cromwell
1996
January The Stuarts and Oliver Cromwell
Feb. Charles II
April Queen Victoria and King Edward 7th
May King George 5th
June King Edward 8th
July King George VI
Aug Queen Elizabeth II
Sept Prince Phillip
Oct Prince Charles
Nov Princess Diana "Her Horoscope tells all" giving the 7.45 pm BST or
6.45 pm GMT chart. An interesting series - a good chance to do
astological family trees.
I am missing the issues between.

Looking for other information:
What are you all using for the Internet and the World Wide Web
I have been trying a composite of Uranus/Vulcan/Mercury

When Uranus was discovered - lots of revolutions and the US Dec. of Ind.
Neptune Madame Blavasky and the rest
Pluto Nuclear fun and the Wall Street cleansing

What do we have for the Internet? Surely some new force in the Solar
System that would represent this.

To help me in investigating this I would like the charts of:
Bill Gates, Tim Berners-Lee (proposed the WorldWide Web in 1989), Ted
Nelson, (the inventor of hypertext), and Netscape's CEO James Barksdale
and of the others who were part of this invention.

World Wide Web was released by CERN in 1992 so this is all the 1990s.

My Masters thesis is on how the World Wide Web is changing literature
(the narrative)
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5289/THESIS.html

thanks

Terrell Adsit-neuage
Adelaide South Australia

neua0002@victor.ist.flinders.edu.au
neuage@deakin.edu.au

Thread:	Data from England
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Fri, 05 Sep 1997 23:35:02 -0400

Dear Folks,
I just received an e-mail from Garry Heaton in London with a discussion
of the 2 birth times for Diana; he strongly supports the 7:45 PM (and
gives reasons and sources).

He sent the birth date of Dodi Fayed, which he got from a Times (presume
London Times) obit:
4 15 55, Alexandria, Egypt.

Best wishes, DKR

Thread:	Memorial
From:	"Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>	Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:49:00 +7

An online memorial for Princess Diana. One true Lady. Farewell
_
__@ |__
|___@__|
| @
| @
| |
Please forward (& remove names before forwarding)
==================================
William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
or traditional@halcyon.com
privately owned and brought to you by-
JustUs & Associates
Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
Coley, Ramsesy, Gadbury, and many more books available.
No fascimile copies, these books are all retyped and republished in modern print.
Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
horary_astrology@compuserve.com
http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall

Thread:	Mother Theresa
From:	Gill Norman <history@astronet.demon.co.uk>	Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:27:18 +0100

Not just Diana leaving on this 9 Virgo (Saros 18 North) Eclipse...

Fri, Sept 5 '97 Mother Theresa has died of a heart attack.
News just received in last few minutes from her son. [source:TV Ch.4
News 19.03 BST]

--
Gill Norman Astronet UK
Glastonbury England 51N06 02W42

Thread:	Diana
From:	Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>	Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 04:47:21 -0400 (EDT)

If press reports over in the U.S. are true that Diana by
virtue of that divorce agreement was denied
the services of Royal Protection Service, the chart for that
divorce agreement and the chart for the U.K. will likely have
an interesting story to tell. A question that comes to my mind is why
didn't the government override that agreement with respect to protection given
Diana's well-established problems with the yellow journalists by that time?
Would seem to me the real government in the U.K. failed her in the most sgrievous manner possible in
this respect. Questions of that nature should be raised and answered in places
where they'll count or I fear there'll be three ghosts in need of rest frequenting
that tunnel site in France in years to come.
//eoj

jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional! :-))

Thread:	Subscribe
From:	Lharak@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:44:10 -0400 (EDT)

Thread:	I thought this would be of interest to all of you - Claudia
From:	jschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz)	Date:	Fri, 05 Sep 1997 00:00:23 GMT

On Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:43:57 -0400 (EDT), Jude DaShiel wrote:

>There's now questions being raised on C.N.N. about the
>quality of the analysis. Evidently for autopsies with
>violent death the only proper place to extract blood from is just
>behind the eye. Many experienced pathologists still take blood
>from cavities though and blood after death will manufacture
>alcohol on its own whether drinking occurred before death or not.
>Others who saw the driver before the accident not only said he hadn't been drinking
>but also that he didn't drink so for him to do so would have been completely out
>of character.

Unfortunately your information is not quite right. According to
Stephan Zielinski on alt.folklore.urban:

----begin quoted material---

Spitz and Fisher's _Medicolegal Invesigation of Death_, third edition,
ISBN 0-398-05818-0, page 771:

When putrefaction has occurred, caution must be exercised in
interpreting blood or tissue alcohol levels obtained by analysis of
such putrid samples. This is due to the fact that alcohol may be lost
or produced by bacterial action during the putrefactive process.
Production of alcohol is by far the most serious problem, since it
may
lead to the conclusion that alcohol consumption was a contributing
factor in causing the death.

This serves as a debunk of the original bit o' lore. (That is; that
postmortem blood alcohol content does not properly reflect mortem
blood alcohol content, as a result of rapid and immediate alcohol
production in a dead man's flesh.) When *putrefaction* occurs,
alcohol levels can go either up OR down-- but lacking putrefaction, as
in the case of an autopsy shortly after death, postmortem samples
closely match premortem samples.

(Note that the quote above does NOT contain all the information
summarized in the previous paragraph. If you don't trust me, read
Spitz and Fisher from pages 767 through 775-- which is chapter 20,
_Forensic Aspects of Alcohol_.)

However, future students of the conspiracy theories surrounding the
Princesses death should take note: as of September 1997, folks were
already questioning the Drunken Driver hypothesis on the grounds of
the (false) belief that immediately after death, all people's blood
alcohol content jumps. Assuming the incident spawns actual urban
legends, watch for the following variation: that since in some cases
blood alcohol drops during putrefaction, the Evil Conspirators
deliberately OVERESTIMATED the degree of decrease, falsely
back-extrapolating a condition of drunkenness.

Thread:	I thought this would be of interest to all of you - Claudia
From:	Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>	Date:	Thu, 4 Sep 1997 04:43:57 -0400 (EDT)

There's now questions being raised on C.N.N. about the
quality of the analysis. Evidently for autopsies with
violent death the only proper place to extract blood from is just
behind the eye. Many experienced pathologists still take blood
from cavities though and blood after death will manufacture
alcohol on its own whether drinking occurred before death or not.
Others who saw the driver before the accident not only said he hadn't been drinking
but also that he didn't drink so for him to do so would have been completely out
of character.
//eoj

jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional! :-))

Thread:	A Puzzlement
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Wed, 03 Sep 1997 22:48:57 -0400

Neil Urquhart wrote:

> "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >>"House of Windsor, the official designation of the British royal
> family,
> >[was] adopted by proclamation on July 17, 1917". (This was meant to
> >sever the family's previous strong German connections and rights to
> >those thrones, in the situation of fanatic anti-German feeling during
>
> >WWI).
> >
> Hi Diana and Fellow Lillies,
>
> In line with all the conflicting information flying around (Merc retro
> fer
> sure), Whitaker's Almanac 1991, p140 gives JUNE (not July) 17 1917 as
> the
> date when "King George V assumed by royal proclamation...the name of
> Windsor."
>
> Best, Neil

Well, now...since getting the above about Whitaker's having June
instead of July, I rummaged about and found another book (about
descendants of Q Victoria) that gave the July date; then I checked the
Chronicle of the 20th Century and they had June! Oh, brother. I'll ask
a librarian I know to work on it. Curiouser & Curiouser.
Luv to all, DKR

Thread:	Is there a House of Windsor chart???
From:	vesper@execpc.com	Date:	Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:34:12 -0500 (CDT)

>Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 16:38:36
>To: nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart)
>From: vesper
>Subject: Re: Is there a House of Windsor chart???
>
>At 09:03 PM 9/3/97 +0900, Neil wrote:
>
>>If that is the case then King George V's coronation was May 6th 1910. He
>>proclaimed the change of name to Windsor and the next King was Edward VIII
>>who was crowned on Jan 20 1936. Which would you pick?
>
>No, Neil, the May 6, 1910 date is the date on which King George V's father,
King Edward VII died. The January 20, 1936 date is the date King George V
died. The official coronations are national celebrations that are held at a
later time. For example, Elizabeth II's father, King George VI, died on
February 6, 1952 and her official coronation was held on June 2, 1952 at
Westminster Abby.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Terri
>

Thread:	On-line college (horary)
From:	"Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>	Date:	Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:59:35 +7

Dear Lilly list members,
Well, technology marches on! Classical meets the computer age! I
have just had this e-mail from Lee and thought all of you would find
it interesting. On-line courses in horary, you knew it had to be the
next step. I think this is great and wish Lee all the success in the
world with this new venture. The more methods od study available the
better.
Love & Light
Carol

Lessons 1-4 of Lee Lehman's Classical Studies in Horary will be
available as an 8 week session through the NCGR On-Line College,
Wednesdays 8:00 pm - 9:30 pm ET.

The cost breaks out as follows:

Tuition for first 1/3 of CSH: $120
Plus tuition for on-line sessions: $60

Here's some info on the Course.

-----
Horary Astrology, the art of answering questions, differs little from
its divinatory sisters - like Tarot, or I Ching - except that each
method uses different tools and technologies. Classical Studies in
Horary is a twelve lesson course devoted to Classical methods in
Horary, with applications as well in the two other branches of
Interrogation: Electional and event interpretation. Here we present it
as a series on-line classes. After completing the first four lessons,
the student is also eligible to enroll in the Classical Studies in
Electional Astrology Course, the Classical Studies in Mundane Course,
or the Classical Studies in Medical Astrology Course.

The course offers the Astrologer the opportunity to study classical
Astrology in-depth, particularly as it is presented by William Lilly
and Dorotheus of Sidon. The Course was accepted by Professional
Astrologers, Inc. (P.A.I.) as a pre-requisite for membership.

This Course assumes a basic knowledge of natal astrology, comparable
to the NCGR Level II certification, or the first year of study under
the Federation of Australian Astrologers curriculum. A previous
exposure to horary astrology is not necessary, and may even be a
hindrance, because modern methods are not used in the course.

Syllabus for the First Section of the Course

1. Introduction to the houses and planets in horary.
2. Glossary of terms. Dignities and Debilities.
3. Antiscia. The Part of Fortune. Perfection and Emplacement.
4. Planetary Hours. Significators. Is the Chart Radical?

Required Reading for Lessons 1-4: (All items available from Just Us &
Associates):

Lehman, J. Lee. 1989. Essential Dignities. Whitford Press: West
Chester, PA.

Lehman, J. Lee. 1992. The Book of Rulerships. Whitford Press: West
Chester, PA.

Lehman, J. Lee. 1996. Classical Astrology for Modern Living. Whitford
Press: West Chester, PA.

Lilly, William. 1647. Christian Astrology. Reprinted in 1985 by
Regulus: London. Also reprinted by Just Us & Associates.

For more information about the Course, check out:

http://www.edperrone.com/ncgr
---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction
==================================
William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
or traditional@halcyon.com
privately owned and brought to you by-
JustUs & Associates
Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
Coley, Ramsesy, Gadbury, and many more books available.
No fascimile copies, these books are all retyped and republished in modern print.
Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
horary_astrology@compuserve.com
http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall

Thread:	Is there a House of Windsor chart???
From:	nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart)	Date:	Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:03:10 +0900 (JST)

Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> wrote:

>At 17:58 31/8/1997 -0700, you wrote:
>>Does anybody out there have a chart for the house Windsor? Am I correct in
>>assuming that the House of Windsor's chart would be based on the chart of
>>the first Windsor monarch; or would it be based on the the coronation data
>>of that monarch, or none of the above?
>
>There may be others more conversant with constitutional matters than I, but
>I would have thought that the coronation chart of the first monarch of a
>particular 'house' would be important. This chart would show that family's
>relevance in specific terms to the particular nation.

Hi Sue/Lillies,

If that is the case then King George V's coronation was May 6th 1910. He
proclaimed the change of name to Windsor and the next King was Edward VIII
who was crowned on Jan 20 1936. Which would you pick?

Best,

Neil

Thread:	House of Windsor
From:	nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart)	Date:	Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:03:07 +0900 (JST)

"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Someone, can't remember who, asked for the date of the proclamation of
>the House of Windsor; surprisingly, the Encyclopedia Britannica didn't
>have it, but I found it in my dinky old Collier's Encyclopedia:
>
>"House of Windsor, the official designation of the British royal family,
>[was] adopted by proclamation on July 17, 1917". (This was meant to
>sever the family's previous strong German connections and rights to
>those thrones, in the situation of fanatic anti-German feeling during
>WWI).
>
>Just a glance at the ephemeris shows all sorts of connections to Diana's
>death.

Hi Diana and Fellow Lillies,

In line with all the conflicting information flying around (Merc retro fer
sure), Whitaker's Almanac 1991, p140 gives JUNE (not July) 17 1917 as the
date when "King George V assumed by royal proclamation...the name of Windsor."

Best,

Neil

Thread:	Astrological Assoc conference
From:	Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk>	Date:	Tue, 02 Sep 1997 20:59:11

If anyone on this list is going to Cirencester this week come and say
hello, it'll be nice to meet you.

Sincerely

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread:	Astrological mailinglists etc.
From:	tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma)	Date:	02 Sep 97 21:13:57 +0200

Please feel free to copy and publish this information!
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---

Thread:	Is there a House of Windsor chart???
From:	Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au>	Date:	Tue, 02 Sep 1997 17:48:22

Dear John,

I think you are wrong on that score. Charles is still a divorced man and
Camilla a divirced woman.

Miriam

At 12:12 AM 2/09/97 BST, jon@emarkt.com wrote:
>It shouldn't be overlooked, if there is a Windsor chart (and doesn't
Charles plan to change the name again to Windsor-Mountbatten) that from the
point of view of the dynasty, recent events come as a godsend; all manner
of constitutional problems wiped ou
>t at a stroke.
>
>Jon
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.

Thread:	Is there a House of Windsor chart???
From:	Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au>	Date:	Tue, 02 Sep 1997 17:44:09

Dear Dorothy,

The chart used for the British Monarchy is the Coronation of William 25 Dec
1066. The Eclipes is conjunct that chart's Jupiter, Diana's Asc ruler (if
the 7 45 chart is correct.

Love from over here,
Miriam
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.

Thread:	House of Windsor
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Tue, 02 Sep 1997 13:40:25 -0400

Someone, can't remember who, asked for the date of the proclamation of
the House of Windsor; surprisingly, the Encyclopedia Britannica didn't
have it, but I found it in my dinky old Collier's Encyclopedia:

"House of Windsor, the official designation of the British royal family,
[was] adopted by proclamation on July 17, 1917". (This was meant to
sever the family's previous strong German connections and rights to
those thrones, in the situation of fanatic anti-German feeling during
WWI).

Just a glance at the ephemeris shows all sorts of connections to Diana's
death.

Love, DKR

Thread:	Letters
From:	Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au>	Date:	Tue, 02 Sep 1997 17:35:45

Dear Agnes,

The astrologer is Penny Thornton and she is English. The 2.15 pm chart was
the first chart we had for Diana, although most seem to use the 7.45 pm chart.

Love from over here,
Miriam

At 11:10 PM 31/08/97 -0400, Agnes Moscrip wrote:
>Before we get to far into assuming the time is 7:45pm...
>Lifetime Biography just ran a special on Diana. They interviewed her
>personal astrologer and put a close up of her chart on the screen. It
>very clearly showed Libra rising, which puts her time as the 2:15 pm
>daylight savings time. I wonder if anyone knows Ms Thornton, the
>astrologer in question, so we may get confirmation one way or the other?
>I can't remember her first name...she sounded British in any case.
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.

Thread:	Is there a House of Windsor chart???
From:	jon@emarkt.com	Date:	Tue, 02 Sep 1997 12:37:53 BST

I don't think it will be easy, everything depends on whose publicity machine can command the greater public sympathy, but if Charles' plays it right he can achieve far more now than if Diana were around spitefully manipulating things as she has done in the past.
Incidentally, Charles Carter's reading of the chart for Charles, it must have been done around the time of his birth I suppose, cast strong doubts on his ever becoming king.

>Dear John,
>
>I think you are wrong on that score. Charles is still a divorced man and
>Camilla a divirced woman.
>
>Miriam
>
>At 12:12 AM 2/09/97 BST, jon@emarkt.com wrote:
>>It shouldn't be overlooked, if there is a Windsor chart (and doesn't
>Charles plan to change the name again to Windsor-Mountbatten) that from the
>point of view of the dynasty, recent events come as a godsend; all manner
>of constitutional problems wiped ou
>>t at a stroke.
>>
>>Jon
>--
>"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
>the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
>Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
>astrology lectures on tape.
>

please send any reply to johannes@englandmail.com as this server is soon closing down. Thanks

Thread:	Is there a House of Windsor chart???
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Tue, 2 Sep 1997 05:28:18 -0700

Dear Dorothy,

>My friend writes:
>>>I just subscribed to the William Lilly group. What sad times. Being so
>>>new to horary astrology, I'm reluctant to post to the list proper, but
>>>may be you can tell me: is there a chart for the House of Windsor?

The proclamation for the new dynasty was made on 17 July 1917 according to
the Encyclopaedia Britannica. I don't have a time but will see if I can find
one on my next investigations of old newspapers in thelocal library.
Alternatively, you could try emailing Buckingham Palace though they probably
are overloaded at present.

Provisionally set for midday, the South Node is 0 degrees 15' away from the
natal sun of Princess Diana.

>>>Would you expect to see anything in it, regarding Prince Charles and/or
>>>their two sons William and Harry?
>>>
>>>I was just looking at Harry's chart in Bernadette Brady's book. He was
>>>born on the day of a solar eclipse, Sun in 0 degrees Cancer.

No, this is Prince William.

snip...

Regards,
Jonathon
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	Is there a House of Windsor chart???
From:	Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk>	Date:	Tue, 02 Sep 1997 12:08:52

At 14:33 1/9/1997 -0700, Sue Jorgenson wrote:
>>
>Hi, Dorothy: to the best of my (American) knowledge, the House of
>Windsor was known previously as the House of Battenburg. During World War
>I, due to anti-German sentiment, the King quietly (meaning not too much
>fanfare) changed the name to Windsor and it has remained so since.

This is true and the Queen's uncle Louis changed his name to Mountbatten.

>England was involved in the war from 1914 to 1918, so the change took
>place during these years. So I would say, if the date could be found,
>the date the name change formally took place. Barring that, the
>coronation of that monarch who instigated the name change - to see if
>there are any planets or transits for his reign showing a change in
>personal or public identity.

I'm not sure how useful this would be in terms of the house itself, see
other post on this subject, although it would show the circumstances of the
time. But this chart, theoretically, should be a transit to the radix of
the family.

Hope this helps a little.

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread:	Is there a House of Windsor chart???
From:	Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk>	Date:	Tue, 02 Sep 1997 12:04:24

At 17:58 31/8/1997 -0700, you wrote:
>Does anybody out there have a chart for the house Windsor? Am I correct in
>assuming that the House of Windsor's chart would be based on the chart of
>the first Windsor monarch; or would it be based on the the coronation data
>of that monarch, or none of the above?

There may be others more conversant with constitutional matters than I, but
I would have thought that the coronation chart of the first monarch of a
particular 'house' would be important. This chart would show that family's
relevance in specific terms to the particular nation.

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread:	Diana
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:43:16 -0700

John Frawley wrote:

>Am I the only one who finds this rush to play with Diana's chart repugnant?
>
>The poor woman's body is barely cold: what, exactly, of such urgent
>importance do we expect to find in her chart? If there is a difference
>between this and the paparazzi running to photograph the wreckage, I quite
>fail to see it.

Dear John,

Thank you for raising this very important point, one which I considered for
some time before posting a description of the crash chart.

There is a difference, in my view, and that difference is one of intention.
The position of the astrologer is a privileged one insofar as he or she has
the opportunity to observe the interplay between heaven and earth which the
general public do not. The astrologer has the potential to share that
knowledge with others and, in the process, increase his or her own knowledge.

Lilly himself perhaps provides the best advice on the subject in the
introduction to Christian Astrology

"...the more thy knowledge is enlarged, the more do thou magnify the power
and wisdom of Almighty God."

This, it seems to me, is very different from the paparazzi's relationship
with the general public where it is the prurient aspects of humanity that
are being exploited.
It is also worth noting that the paparazzi would have no market if the
general public did not create it.

Thus, I think it is valid to examine the relative charts without delay. Tony
Louis had a very interesting posting which picked up the possibility of
drink/drugs while others have noted that the time of death according to the
press releases may not be validated by the astrology.

We may not have seen the last of the misinformation - echoes of JFK and the
"lone gun theory" come to mind. Astrology may yet have a valid role in
pinpointing the truth behind what is put out for public consumption.

We have an interesting few days ahead of us - particularly, I suspect, when
Mercury conjuncts last night's eclipse degree on the 19th. Setpember.

Thoughtfully,
Jonathon

>
>
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	De gustibus...?
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:43:20 -0700

jon@emarkt.com wrote:
>
>What I do find a bit odd is the gush of after the event chart analysis. Had
anyone foreseen any such happenings?

Rather like the old joke about drawing the graph and then putting the points
on the line - generally I would agree with you.

However, in this case I think there is another aspect to consider:

"Give not judgement of the death of thy Prince." says Lilly in his
introduction to Christian Astrology.

Even if we had spotted such an event I think Lilly would discourage us from
making it public.

Regards,
Jonathon
>

Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	Saros cycles
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:00:03 +0100

>Hi ya'll,
>
> Has anyone come across any of the older astrologer's using the Saros
>Cycles? About ten years ago I looked at them to see what they looked
>like on a chart but I never studied them. They looked interesting. I
>have no idea what the represent astrologically.
>
>Kent
>
Hello, Kent,

Bernadette Brady has some interesting discussion on this in her book "The
Eagle and the Lark".

Pat.

Thread:	Data
From:	Lynda Hill <lhill@peg.apc.org>	Date:	Tue, 02 Sep 1997 16:00:41 +1000

I have been trying to find the data of the Coronation of the Queen (the
current one!) for some time now, I've found the date - but can't find
the time. Can anybody help?

Also does anybody have the data of the wedding of Elizabeth and Phillip
- again I have the date but no time.

Thanks, I've written to this list because of the wonderful English
resources you guys are.

Love from DownUnder
Lynda

Thread:	[Fwd: [Fwd: Editorials on Diana and photographers]]
From:	"Claudia D. Dikinis" <starcats@earthlink.net>	Date:	Mon, 01 Sep 1997 21:46:55 -0700

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A friend of mine sent me these materials on the Princess. I thought you
might like to
browse them at your leisure. Diana's funeral will take place Saturday
11:00 am, BST, 6:00 am EDT, 4:00 am PDT. Thank you one and all for your
contributions to my
mailbox regarding Diana. I look forward to communicating with everyone
very soon.

Peace, Claudia

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Thread:	I thought this would be of interest to all of you - Claudia
From:	"Claudia D. Dikinis" <starcats@earthlink.net>	Date:	Mon, 01 Sep 1997 18:25:35 -0700

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Thread:	Princess Di Hurt, Dodi Fayed Killed
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Tue, 2 Sep 1997 01:19:03 +0000

At 05:44 PM 8/31/97 +0000, Sue Ward wrote:

>She died at 4am BST Paris 31 Aug 1997 from injuries sustained in the crash.

Actually, Sue, it would seem that she really died some time before 4 a.m.
The 4 a.m. time was when they gave up trying to bring her back to life. She
apparently died several times, or at least her heart stopped. They massaged
the heart, both from outside and inside...hands on her heart. They seem to
have revived her a few times, but then, no more.

How sad it must have been for the doctor who held her heart in his hands.

Julienne

Thread:	European Chart Casting
From:	"Claudia D. Dikinis" <starcats@earthlink.net>	Date:	Mon, 01 Sep 1997 17:32:44 -0700

I'm hoping that you can help me out. I have virtually zero experience
casting charts
for european people and events. I am concerned that my charts are in
error:

Diana:

1. time of accident -12:35 am - Paris Time
2. time of death - 4:00 am - Time of Death/Paris
3. Any instructions you want to give me on how I go about calculating
european charts. I have ACS International Atlas.
4. Diana's funeral is set for Saturday, Sept. 6th at 1:00 am (British
Time, if I'm reading New York Times accurately). Just wanted you to
know in case you hadn't heard yet.

THANKS!

StarCats@earthlink.net.

Thread:	Is there a House of Windsor chart???
From:	jon@emarkt.com	Date:	Tue, 02 Sep 1997 00:12:19 BST

It shouldn't be overlooked, if there is a Windsor chart (and doesn't Charles plan to change the name again to Windsor-Mountbatten) that from the point of view of the dynasty, recent events come as a godsend; all manner of constitutional problems wiped out at a stroke.

Jon

>>
>Hi, Dorothy: to the best of my (American) knowledge, the House of
>Windsor was known previously as the House of Battenburg. During World War
>I, due to anti-German sentiment, the King quietly (meaning not too much
>fanfare) changed the name to Windsor and it has remained so since.
>England was involved in the war from 1914 to 1918, so the change took
>place during these years. So I would say, if the date could be found,
>the date the name change formally took place. Barring that, the
>coronation of that monarch who instigated the name change - to see if
>there are any planets or transits for his reign showing a change in
>personal or public identity.
>
>Hope this is a step in the right direction - I'd love to know, also!
>
>Sue
>
>Sue Fensalir
>Fensalir Astrology
>s.fensalir@juno.com
>
>
>>
>>Does anybody out there have a chart for the house Windsor? Am I
>>correct in
>>assuming that the House of Windsor's chart would be based on the chart
>>of
>>the first Windsor monarch; or would it be based on the the coronation
>>data
>>of that monarch, or none of the above?
>>
>>Thank you in advance,
>>Dorothy J. Kovach
>>dstar@mcn.org
>>
>>
>

please send any reply to johannes@englandmail.com as this server is soon closing down. Thanks

Thread:	De gustibus...?
From:	jon@emarkt.com	Date:	Tue, 02 Sep 1997 00:12:49 BST

No John, I don't. It's an event like any other. If it were someone else would you ask for a decent delay before inspecting the entrails?

What I do find a bit odd is the gush of after the event chart analysis. Had anyone foreseen any such happenings?

Jon

>Am I the only one who finds this rush to play with Diana's chart repugnant?
>
>The poor woman's body is barely cold: what, exactly, of such urgent
>importance do we expect to find in her chart? If there is a difference
>between this and the paparazzi running to photograph the wreckage, I quite
>fail to see it.
>
>The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
>Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk
>
>
>

please send any reply to johannes@englandmail.com as this server is soon closing down. Thanks

please send any reply to johannes@englandmail.com as this server is soon closing down. Thanks

Thread:	Is there a House of Windsor chart???
From:	s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson)	Date:	Mon, 1 Sep 1997 14:33:28 -0700

>
Hi, Dorothy: to the best of my (American) knowledge, the House of
Windsor was known previously as the House of Battenburg. During World War
I, due to anti-German sentiment, the King quietly (meaning not too much
fanfare) changed the name to Windsor and it has remained so since.
England was involved in the war from 1914 to 1918, so the change took
place during these years. So I would say, if the date could be found,
the date the name change formally took place. Barring that, the
coronation of that monarch who instigated the name change - to see if
there are any planets or transits for his reign showing a change in
personal or public identity.

Hope this is a step in the right direction - I'd love to know, also!

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com

>
>Does anybody out there have a chart for the house Windsor? Am I
>correct in
>assuming that the House of Windsor's chart would be based on the chart
>of
>the first Windsor monarch; or would it be based on the the coronation
>data
>of that monarch, or none of the above?
>
>Thank you in advance,
>Dorothy J. Kovach
>dstar@mcn.org
>
>

Thread:	Diana and Dodi Al Fayed Killed in Car Crash
From:	Shirley Gray <GrayShirley@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Mon, 01 Sep 1997 17:24:17 -0400

TonyLouis@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-08-31 18:20:04 EDT, you write:
>
> << Does anyone have any info on the time of the accident? >>
>
> A quick look at the natal chart and the time of the accident (35 min past
> midnight) shows the following very close aspects:
>
> progressed Mars octile (45) natal Neptune
> Prog. ASC trioctile (135) natal Pluto
> Prog. Uranus opposed to natal Moon (ruler of the 8th of death)
> Transiting Pluto quincunx (150) natal Mercury
> Transiting Sun octile natal MC
> Transiting Uranus quincunx natal Pluto
> Transiting Neptune conjunct natal Saturn.
>
> In addition, the solar eclipse of 9/1/97 occurs in her 8th house of death.

A few follow-on comments:

Diana's lunar return for Aug 18, 1997 at her natal location has a
t-square in late fixed signs: n. 8th ruler Moon 25 Aquarius in LR 4th
in tight opposition to Sun at 25 Leo and n.Uranus at 23 Leo, n. Node at
28 Leo square n.Venus at 24 Taurus in LR 8th. Also LR Saturn conjunct
Desc., n. Saturn, LR Neptune at I.C. (Regio cusps).

Penny Thornton in her book Synastry has an interesting tabulation of the
three major charts for G.B. and of the modern Royals, all but one of
whom have a planet or planets between 20-26 of the fixed signs. As
Diana's chart attests, she was one of them, divorce notwithstanding.
Finally, her Solar Return for July 1, 1997 has n. Mercury square SR 8th
ruler Mars, Asc/Desc.

Shirley Gray

Thread:	Saros cycles
From:	kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com>	Date:	Mon, 01 Sep 1997 14:10:22 -0500

Hi ya'll,

Has anyone come across any of the older astrologer's using the Saros
Cycles? About ten years ago I looked at them to see what they looked
like on a chart but I never studied them. They looked interesting. I
have no idea what the represent astrologically.

Kent

Thread:	Diana birth time.
From:	Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk>	Date:	Mon, 01 Sep 1997 18:13:56

At 23:10 31/8/1997 -0400, Anyes wrote:
>Before we get to far into assuming the time is 7:45pm...
>Lifetime Biography just ran a special on Diana. They interviewed her
>personal astrologer and put a close up of her chart on the screen. It
>very clearly showed Libra rising, which puts her time as the 2:15 pm
>daylight savings time. I wonder if anyone knows Ms Thornton, the

This is Penny Thornton and you might like to contact the Urania Trust in
the first instance.

>astrologer in question, so we may get confirmation one way or the other?
>I can't remember her first name...she sounded British in any case.
>
>I am glad to say she was very professional, and did not divulge any
>confidential, juicy information. Just that she had read her chart
>several times at Diana's request.
>
>Confirmation of the time would be nice...
>
>Anyes
>
>
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread:	A Tragic Event
From:	Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net>	Date:	Mon, 01 Sep 1997 13:40:52 -0400

On 31 August 1997, at approximately 12:28AM Paris time, Princess Diana of
Wales was involved in an automobile accident which proved fatal for her
and, as far as I know, two others. The chart is set for Paris, France
(48N52 2E20); time 12:28AM (approximate and two hours ahead of Universal
Time).

"The ascendant and the Moon signify the ship and cargo; the lord of the
ascendant, those that sail in her." Chart shows 18 Gemini rising, Moon at
15 Leo 08 (one degree from the Fourth cusp at 16 Leo 01), The lord of the
ascendant is Mercury at 8 Virgo 47 and retrograde. Gemini rising is
appropriate for a vehicle, Moon in the Third of short journeys near the
end-of-the-matter Fourth.
Mercury is "under the beams" and conjoins the Sun by mutual application,
they moving toward each other. The Moon rules the Cancer (security) Third,
but in the sign Leo is dissatisfied and proceeding to the Fourth of home as
well as end-of-the-matter.

Mercury, the driver ("those who sail in her"-crew) is retrograde, an
indication of impairment, is caught up in the Sun. The end-of-the-matter
Sun-ruled Fourth, which is the accident, was partially due to poor or
impaired judgment (Mercury retrograde) by one technically skilled (Virgo).

The Moon (passengers) are unhappy in the Third, but why? We look to the
Moon just separating from an opposition to Jupiter, in the Ninth
(near-neighborhood Third of Seventh) and applying to sextile of Venus in
Libra, Fifth House of taking chances. Jupiter rules the Seventh of public
enemies and the 11th of unplanned events. The Moon (passengers) are
separating from public-enemy pursuers (Jupiter retrograde). Venus is strong
in Libra in the House of taking chances, but she is separating from an
opposition to 11th House Saturn. Saturn is fallen in Aries, retrograde
impaired and one degree off the degree of the South Node, an accident about
to happen. Saturn rules the Ninth and the 10th of public prominence,
disposits Jupiter. A badly-damaged Saturn attempts to right a wrong
situation which is about to become publicly prominent. Saturn also rules
the Eighth of danger and injury.

Venus, strong in Libra, has the infortune to also rule Taurus, intercepted
in the 12th of disaster. Why disaster? Fortuna at 26 Taurus exactly
conjoins Caput Algol, sometimes referred to as the "most evil star in the
heavens." Jupiter, the pursuers, are also mildly besieged by Mars and
Saturn. Mars, strong in Scorpio but intercepted in Sixth, rules 12th of
disaster and disposits
Saturn. What Saturn tries to correct, Mars acts rashly and dangerously
(Scorpio, natural ruler Eighth of danger). Mars squares Jupiter, a
confirmation of danger and the unexpected (Jupiter in Aquarius), and
squares the Moon (passengers).

The Moon moves and quickly sextiles Venus, then conjoins the Fourth cusp.
It seems like a reasonable risk to separate from (evade) the pursuers. Then
the Moon moves to trine a debilitated Saturn in the 11th of unplanned
events. Finally, the Moon squares Fortune, Fortune so conditioned by
malevolence that what starts well, ends tragically.

Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread:	Letters
From:	Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>	Date:	Mon, 1 Sep 1997 12:36:45 -0400 (EDT)

I don't know the astrologer myself but do remember a program
on which she was interviewed. Her first name is Penney.

> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:10:43 -0400
> From: Agnes Moscrip <anyes@ix.netcom.com>
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
> Subject: Re: letters
> Resent-Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:31:38 +7
> Resent-From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
> Resent-To: "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>
> Before we get to far into assuming the time is 7:45pm...
> Lifetime Biography just ran a special on Diana. They interviewed her
> personal astrologer and put a close up of her chart on the screen. It
> very clearly showed Libra rising, which puts her time as the 2:15 pm
> daylight savings time. I wonder if anyone knows Ms Thornton, the
> astrologer in question, so we may get confirmation one way or the other?
> I can't remember her first name...she sounded British in any case.
>
> I am glad to say she was very professional, and did not divulge any
> confidential, juicy information. Just that she had read her chart
> several times at Diana's request.
>
> Confirmation of the time would be nice...
>
> Anyes
>

//eoj

jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional! :-))

Thread:	The birth data for the Princess of Wales
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:52:44 +0100

Dear Anyes,

Penny Thornton, in her book "Synastry" gives the birth data as "1 July,
1961 Sandringham, England 7 45 pm BST 0e30 52n50 source: Buckingham Palace.
A time of 2 00 pm was first given for the Princess of Wales, but was
subsequently found to be in error."

Penny was removed from the register of the Faculty of Astrological Studies
several years ago for breach of the code of ethics relating to matters
concerning the Princess of Wales so it is interesting to hear your view of
her recent performance.

Pat.

Thread:	Diana's time of birth
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:29:51 -0400 (EDT)

Subj: Re: letters
Date: 09/01/97
To: anyes@ix.netcom.com

In a message dated 97-09-01 08:32:03 EDT, you write:

<< Before we get to far into assuming the time is 7:45pm...
Lifetime Biography just ran a special on Diana. They interviewed her
personal astrologer and put a close up of her chart on the screen. It
very clearly showed Libra rising, which puts her time as the 2:15 pm
daylight savings time. >>

Agnes,

Thanks for this info. I was also skeptical of the 7:45 pm time. Not having
a birth time and using only the birth date and the time of the accident, I
had rectified the chart to mid-afternoon, so I was surprised to see the 7:45
pm when it was posted. I hope that someone can clarify this matter with her
personal astrologer.

Also I was puzzled by the prominence of Neptune in the chart (Prog. Mars
semisquare natal Neptune, and transiting Neptune closely conjunct natal
Saturn). The Mars octile Neptune suggested an accident due to drugs or
alcohol but there were not press comments about this. However, I just read
the following on AOL:

<<Authorities in Paris say the driver of the car in which Princess Diana died
Sunday had a blood-alcohol level that was above the legal limit. The Paris
prosecutor's office says ``the analysis his blood showed a concentration of
alcohol at an illicit level.'' >>

Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: anyes@ix.netcom.com (Agnes Moscrip)
Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
Reply-to: anyes@ix.netcom.com
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Date: 97-09-01 08:32:03 EDT

Before we get to far into assuming the time is 7:45pm...
Lifetime Biography just ran a special on Diana. They interviewed her
personal astrologer and put a close up of her chart on the screen. It
very clearly showed Libra rising, which puts her time as the 2:15 pm
daylight savings time. I wonder if anyone knows Ms Thornton, the
astrologer in question, so we may get confirmation one way or the other?
I can't remember her first name...she sounded British in any case.

I am glad to say she was very professional, and did not divulge any
confidential, juicy information. Just that she had read her chart
several times at Diana's request.

Confirmation of the time would be nice...

Anyes

Thread:	Re[2]: letters
From:	"Nicholas Grier" <n.grier@napier.ac.uk>	Date:	Mon, 01 Sep 97 10:09:47 gmt

Princess Di's astrologer was indeed Penny Thornton, a well known
astrologer in the UK who has done charts for Prince Andrew and the
Duchess of York and many other celebrities. She has also written, as
have many UK astrologers, on Charles and Diana. She certainly met
Princess Di and apparently the two of them got on well together. Ms
Thornton was a former professional classical ballet dancer before she
became an astrologer. Her books are mainly about relationships and
synastry.

Nicholas

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: letters
Author: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> at internet-gateway
Date: 01/09/97 05:38

>Message was resent -- Original recipients were:
To:
william_lilly@halcyon.com-------------------------------------------------------
------------------------
Before we get to far into assuming the time is 7:45pm...
Lifetime Biography just ran a special on Diana. They interviewed her
personal astrologer and put a close up of her chart on the screen. It
very clearly showed Libra rising, which puts her time as the 2:15 pm
daylight savings time. I wonder if anyone knows Ms Thornton, the
astrologer in question, so we may get confirmation one way or the other?
I can't remember her first name...she sounded British in any case.

I am glad to say she was very professional, and did not divulge any
confidential, juicy information. Just that she had read her chart
several times at Diana's request.

Confirmation of the time would be nice...

Anyes

Thread:	Diana
From:	John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk>	Date:	Mon, 1 Sep 1997 02:23:32 -0700

Am I the only one who finds this rush to play with Diana's chart repugnant?

The poor woman's body is barely cold: what, exactly, of such urgent
importance do we expect to find in her chart? If there is a difference
between this and the paparazzi running to photograph the wreckage, I quite
fail to see it.

The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk

Thread:	The Paris Crash - update
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Mon, 1 Sep 1997 01:37:24 -0700

Time of crash as per "The Times" of London, 1 September, is 12.25 a.m.

Re. the preliminary chart cast for 12.05 a.m. - most of what I wrote on this
remains valid. The Moon now moves exactly to the IC which makes it even more
potent. Ascendant changes to 17 Gemini

The fixed star Rigel is conjunct the Ascendant which according to Robson,
gives "Good fortune, preferment, riches, great and lasting honours."

One revision I would consider making to my post of yesterday is the
signification for Dodi Al-Fayed. It is probably more correct to take him as
signified by Mercury along with the Princess since the Ascendant is double
bodied and Mercury is in a double bodied sign, Virgo. Jupiter then signifies
the paparazzi and the separating opposition between Moon and Jupiter then
describes the chase and eventual tragic end.

Apologies for this - probably comes of watching an entire day's television
coverage entirely from a British perspective.

All the best,
Jonathon
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife

Thread:	Letters
From:	Andy Gray <andy@earthsea.demon.co.uk>	Date:	Mon, 01 Sep 1997 09:08:22 +0100

At 23:10 31/08/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Before we get to far into assuming the time is 7:45pm...
>Lifetime Biography just ran a special on Diana. They interviewed her
>personal astrologer and put a close up of her chart on the screen. It
>very clearly showed Libra rising, which puts her time as the 2:15 pm
>daylight savings time. I wonder if anyone knows Ms Thornton, the
>astrologer in question, so we may get confirmation one way or the other?
>I can't remember her first name...she sounded British in any case.

Her name is Penny Thornton

>I am glad to say she was very professional, and did not divulge any
>confidential, juicy information. Just that she had read her chart
>several times at Diana's request.
>
>Confirmation of the time would be nice...

7:45pm (6:45pm GMT)

>Anyes
>
^__^ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___
(- 0) Andy <*,*> <*,*> <*,*> <*,*> <*,*>
| \/ | [`-'] [`-'] [`-'] [`-'] [`-']
\ / NeXTMail Welcome -"-"- -"-"- -"-"- -"-"- -"-"-
====^^======================================================================
\/ Tel : +44-1-473-240276 (FAX by prior arrangement - call me)
Andy Gray SMTP: andy@earthsea.demon.co.uk
WWW : http://www.earthsea.demon.co.uk
"In every colour there is a light, in every stone there sleeps a crystal;
Listen to the shaman when he used to say, "Man is the dream of the dolphin"
============================================================================

Thread:	Diana and Dodi Al Fayed Killed in Car Crash
From:	Andy Gray <andy@earthsea.demon.co.uk>	Date:	Mon, 01 Sep 1997 09:04:39 +0100

At 20:18 31/08/97 +0900, you wrote:
>For those who haven't heard, Diana, former Princess of Wales, was killed in
>a car crash in Paris with her lover Dodi Al Fayed as they tried to evade the
>media.
>
>Her chart data is as follows: 1 July 1961 at 7.45pm, Sandringham, England
>(52N50, 0E30) (Source: Buckingham Palace).

Listening to the reports on the various TV/Satellite channels, I took the
crash to have occurred "shortly after midnight". An eye witness on CNN
reported that the police arrived some 7-10 minutes later and the ambulance
after 15 minutes. Diana's heart had stopped when the ambulence arrived
although they managed to restart it at the scene.

Casting an initial chart showed an ascending degree of 14 Gemini. Diana's
natal (7:45pm chart) rising degree is 18 Sag. The ascendant of the moment
would have perfected to opposition at around 10:28(43) GMT, which seemed
interestingly co-incidental. I have therefore taken that to be the time of
her death at the scene, despite the recorded death at 3am.

I have also taken this to be the time as there would have been exaggerated
attempts to revive her even though she had passed on for political reasons.
It would have been an enormous embarrasement for the French government who
must be seen to do their best, as would all other governments.

>Looking at the transits, tPluto is sq nMars, tUranus conj nJupiter, tNeptune
>conj nSaturn, tMars conj n Neptune and tUranus/Jupiter sq n Neptune.

With 10:28 GMT this would include tAsc opp nAsc (con nDsc) placing enormous
focus on her self and her partner. Also tMoon con tIC.

>Does anyone have any info on the time of the accident?

Latest I have is
11:40 BST accident occurred
11:45 BST first services arrive
90 minutes before extraction
01:00 BST Diana arrived at hospital
03:00 BST recorded death

I haven't had a chance to do anything with this latest information yet

>Best,
>
>Neil

Regards
Andy

^__^ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___
(- 0) Andy <*,*> <*,*> <*,*> <*,*> <*,*>
| \/ | [`-'] [`-'] [`-'] [`-'] [`-']
\ / NeXTMail Welcome -"-"- -"-"- -"-"- -"-"- -"-"-
====^^======================================================================
\/ Tel : +44-1-473-240276 (FAX by prior arrangement - call me)
Andy Gray SMTP: andy@earthsea.demon.co.uk
WWW : http://www.earthsea.demon.co.uk
"In every colour there is a light, in every stone there sleeps a crystal;
Listen to the shaman when he used to say, "Man is the dream of the dolphin"
============================================================================

Thread:	UK chart & Di
From:	"Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Mon, 01 Sep 1997 01:28:47 -0400

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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Re tragedy of Princess Di:

I happened to be looking up something in CEO Carter's Intro to Political
Astrology and came across the 1066 chart for the coronation of William
the Conqueror (12 25 1066, Noon, Westminster) - it's the chart I have
always liked best for England, I took a quick look to see if this event
showed on it. (I have a modern computer version of the chart tucked into
the pages). The chart's Venus is 29Cap52 - Neptune's rx st on May 1 was
29Cap57...the 1066 (true) NNode was 19Virgo25, the transiting Node at
the accident was 19Virgo43, so it's the UK's once-every-19-year Node
return.
On the 1066 chart, Di, as wife (even if ex-) of the heir would have been
ruled by Jupiter, ruler of the 8th, (7th-from the 2nd, which is the 5th
from the 10th, therefore child of ruler); her death would be the 3rd
(8th from 8th), here ruled by Merc as well. At the event, transiting
Mercury was on the chart's 7 Virgo 57 Jupiter! Mercury's station rx
degree on 8/17 was 16Virgo12; the 1066 Saturn, ruler of 10, 11 (&
Placidian 12) was 16Virgo 50. There's more, but those are the most
readily visible contacts. After 933 years, the chart is still working,
and I think, working better than any of the others I've studied.

(It's been a long time since I've looked hard at asteroids, but here
asteroid 78 Diana was opposed by Mars, and the nodes of 78 Diana
(3Pisces-Virgo) were squared by Pluto).

All this calculation hardly helps to ease the shock - she was my
namesake and I somehow felt a link...DKR

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Re tragedy of Princess Di:

I happened to be looking up something in CEO Carter's Intro to Political
Astrology and came across the 1066 chart for the coronation of William
the Conqueror (12 25 1066, Noon, Westminster) - it's the chart I have always
liked best for England, I took a quick look to see if this event showed
on it. (I have a modern computer version of the chart tucked into the pages).
The chart's Venus is 29Cap52 - Neptune's rx st on May 1 was 29Cap57...the
1066 (true) NNode was 19Virgo25, the transiting Node at the accident was
19Virgo43, so it's the UK's once-every-19-year Node return.
 On the 1066 chart, Di, as wife (even if ex-) of the heir would have
been ruled by Jupiter, ruler of the 8th, (7th-from the 2nd, which is the
5th from the 10th, therefore child of ruler); her death would be the 3rd
(8th from 8th), here ruled by Merc as well. At the event, transiting Mercury
was on the chart's 7 Virgo 57 Jupiter!  Mercury's station rx degree
on 8/17 was 16Virgo12; the 1066 Saturn, ruler of 10, 11 (& Placidian
12) was 16Virgo 50.  There's more, but those are the most readily
visible contacts. After 933 years, the chart is still working, and I think,
working better than any of the others I've studied.

(It's been a long time since I've looked hard at asteroids, but here
asteroid 78 Diana was opposed by Mars, and the nodes of 78 Diana (3Pisces-Virgo)
were squared by Pluto).

All this calculation hardly helps to ease the shock - she was my namesake
and I somehow felt a link...DKR
  
  
  
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Thread:	Is there a House of Windsor chart???
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:58:54 -0700

My friend writes:
>>I just subscribed to the William Lilly group. What sad times. Being so
>>new to horary astrology, I'm reluctant to post to the list proper, but
>>may be you can tell me: is there a chart for the House of Windsor?
>>Would you expect to see anything in it, regarding Prince Charles and/or
>>their two sons William and Harry?
>>
>>I was just looking at Harry's chart in Bernadette Brady's book. He was
>>born on the day of a solar eclipse, Sun in 0 degrees Cancer. People with
>>the Sun in 0 degree anything interest me, as my natal sun is 0 degrees Leo.
>>But a prince with a natal sun of 0 Can.

Bernadette Brady has also written some interesting insights regarding the
future of the Brittish monarchy, based on the saros cycle and the chart of
the heir to the crown, Prince William. (The Eagle and the Lark, page234-6.)

Does anybody out there have a chart for the house Windsor? Am I correct in
assuming that the House of Windsor's chart would be based on the chart of
the first Windsor monarch; or would it be based on the the coronation data
of that monarch, or none of the above?

Thank you in advance,
Dorothy J. Kovach
dstar@mcn.org