Thread: Diana and Dodi Al Fayed Killed in Car Crash
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 03:33:21 +0000

At 02:28 AM 9/1/97 +0000, TonyLouis@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-08-31 18:20:04 EDT, you write:
>
><< Her chart data is as follows: 1 July 1961 at 7.45pm, Sandringham, England
> (52N50, 0E30) (Source: Buckingham Palace). >>
>
>The news report I heard placed the accident at 35 minutes past midnight,
>Paris time.

However, there are reports that the first call to the ploice came at 00:27 am.

Julienne


Thread: Letters
From: Agnes Moscrip <anyes@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 23:10:43 -0400

Before we get to far into assuming the time is 7:45pm...
Lifetime Biography just ran a special on Diana. They interviewed her
personal astrologer and put a close up of her chart on the screen. It
very clearly showed Libra rising, which puts her time as the 2:15 pm
daylight savings time. I wonder if anyone knows Ms Thornton, the
astrologer in question, so we may get confirmation one way or the other?
I can't remember her first name...she sounded British in any case.

I am glad to say she was very professional, and did not divulge any
confidential, juicy information. Just that she had read her chart
several times at Diana's request.

Confirmation of the time would be nice...

Anyes

Thread: Diana and Dodi Al Fayed Killed in Car Crash
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 22:47:28 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-31 18:20:04 EDT, you write:

<< Does anyone have any info on the time of the accident? >>

A quick look at the natal chart and the time of the accident (35 min past
midnight) shows the following very close aspects:

progressed Mars octile (45) natal Neptune
Prog. ASC trioctile (135) natal Pluto
Prog. Uranus opposed to natal Moon (ruler of the 8th of death)
Transiting Pluto quincunx (150) natal Mercury
Transiting Sun octile natal MC
Transiting Uranus quincunx natal Pluto
Transiting Neptune conjunct natal Saturn.

In addition, the solar eclipse of 9/1/97 occurs in her 8th house of death.

Thread: Diana and Dodi Al Fayed Killed in Car Crash
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 22:28:08 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-31 18:20:04 EDT, you write:

<< Her chart data is as follows: 1 July 1961 at 7.45pm, Sandringham, England
(52N50, 0E30) (Source: Buckingham Palace). >>

The news report I heard placed the accident at 35 minutes past midnight,
Paris time.

Thread: Diana and Dodi Al Fayed Killed in Car Crash
From: LeBelier@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:57:44 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-31 08:15:51 EDT, nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp writes:

<< Does anyone have any info on the time of the accident? >>

12: 35 am.

Lenore

Thread: Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
From: neptunenan@kellnet.com (Nancy Perrott) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:39:57 -0400


Hello Sue,
I apologize to you and the list I was half asleep when
I posted the original. This was a repost from another
list and another person. I failed to state that.
But thank you, I did not realize that you could
use progressions in this way.

red all over
Nancy Perrott

----------
> From: Sue Jorgenson <s.fensalir@juno.com>

> >The late Princess Diana, Princess of Wales
> >July 1 1961
> >7:45 pm
> >bst -1:00
> >Sandringham, UK
> >00E30 52n50
> >SolarMaps gives Mercury desc. close to Paris, no parans.
>
> I have SolarMaps also. Please keep in mind that lines running through
> locations _also_ mean natives/events of that country will have an impact
> on the person. For example, the last several US Presidents have had to
> deal with Pluto lines. Kennedy's Pluto line ran through Dallas. Bush's
> Pluto line runs through Libya and he had to deal with Khaddafi. Clinton,
> I think, has it running through the former Yugoslavia. Keeping that in
> mind, I checked North Africa and France for both Diana's natal AND
> progressed charts. Not pretty.
>
> Natal: Mercury desc. close to Paris, as you indicate. Jupiter Ascending
> and Venus IC through Egypt, close to Cairo.
>
> Progressed (this rather hurts): Jupiter Descending very close to Paris,
> Pluto Descending, Mars Descending, Moon IC through Egypt, and the
> Pluto/Mars lines intersect very, very close to Cairo.
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Sue
>
> Sue Fensalir
> Fensalir Astrology
> s.fensalir@juno.com

Thread: The Paris Car Crash
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 11:38:16 -0700


Some preliminary thoughts on today's momentous events.

As ever, on such occasions, the chart offers an extraordinary reflection of
heavenly events brought to earth.

The time of the crash was given in most news bulletins as "just after
midnight," French time. I have therefore cast a preliminary chart for 12.05
a.m. (-2) 31 August 1997, 48N52, 02E20. Asc 12 Gemini.

Although mother of a future heir to the throne, the Princess is not a
member of the British Royal Family.

She is therefore signified by the Ascendant, Gemini, and its ruler, Mercury,
as well as the Moon .

The Gemini Ascendant is a bicorporeal sign and shows that more than one
person is involved in the incident. The Princess and her friend, Dodi
Al-Fayed, were both killed as was the driver. Her bodyguard was seriously
injured.

The princess's relationship with Al-Fayed was a romantic one and he may
therefore be said to be signified by the seventh house, Sagittarius on the
cusp and Jupiter, its ruler.

Mercury is in Virgo, the sign of its rulership and exaltation showing the
Princess to be a noble personage but Mercury is also combust, slow in motion
and retrograde. Its position in the fifth house shows the princess and her
companion to be returning from an evening of pleasure - they had had dinner
at the Paris Ritz which was owned by the Al Fayed family.

Combust and retrograde, Mercury applies to a conjunction with the sun -
ruler of the fourth house of the grave and dispositor of the Moon, also
signifying the Princess. The Moon is already situated in the fourth house
and just separating from an opposition to Jupiter, Al-Fayed, showing the
painful ending of their earthly relationship.

Moon and Jupiter are squared by a powerful Mars in the sixth of illness,
indicating the violent accident which befalls them and that her servants
(sixth house) were also involved.

(Princess Diana also has Mars in the eighth in her natal chart which often
indicates a violent death).

The Moon is aptly placed in the royal sign of Leo which rules the heart -
the princess eventually succumbed to a heart attack after suffering
extensive internal injuries as well as a broken arm (Gemini) and cuts to the
thigh (Sagittarius rises in the natal chart).

The Moon now applies to a sextile (square in signs of long ascension) with
Venus, ruler of Libra on the cusp of the sixth of illness and Taurus,
intercepted in the twelfth - her next journey is to the hospital where she
dies at 4 a.m.

Note the antiscion of Saturn, ruler of the eighth and natural ruler of
death, falling at 10o20' Virgo, just one and a half degrees away from
Mercury, the Princess. Once the Moon has completed its sextile with Venus it
trines Saturn by mutual application.

May they who mourn be comforted at this time.
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: Princess Di Hurt, Dodi Fayed Killed
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:44:47

At 00:06 27/8/1997 -0700, you wrote:
>http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/i/AP-Princess-Diana-Crash.html
>[banner] [VISA . It's everywhere you want to be]
>[toolbar]
>
> August 30, 1997
>
> Princess Di Hurt, Dodi Fayed Killed

She died at 4am BST Paris 31 Aug 1997 from injuries sustained in the crash.

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread: Lady Di
From: "Carla M. Vorsatz" <milarep@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 08:49:26 -0700

I have two different birth times for Lady Di. Does anybody know which is
the right one?
July, 01 - 1961
7.45 pm or 2.15 pm
Sandringham - England
52N50 00E30
Thanks.


Thread: Birth data Diana
From: "P. Langeveld" <Langeveld.P@net.HCC.nl> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:08:14 +0200

GKenni7777@aol.com asked for birth data Diana
According to the data from Solar Fire 4 they
are :01/07/1961 - 19:45 -1:00 Sandringham
52N50 - 000E30 AC 18.24 Sag
the progression at the moment of the accident
is clear.
Bad news !
Paul


Thread: Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 04:27:03 -0700

>WHERE IS EVERYBODY IN REGARD TO PRINCES DI OF WALES?
>
>WHT IS HER BIRTH DATA
>
>_______________________
>In a message dated 97-08-30 06:43:20 EDT, you write:
><< From: jschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz)
> Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com >>
>
Princess Diana - 1 July 1961, 6.45 p.m. GMT, 52N51, 00E30, Asc, 18 Sag.

Queen Elizabeth II - 21 April 1926, 1.40 a.m. GMT, 51N32, 00W06, Asc 21 Cap

Prince Charles - 14 November 1948 9.14 p.m. 52N31, OOW06, Asc 5 Leo,

Prince William - 21 June 1982, 8.03 p.m. GMT, 51N32, 00W12, Asc 27 Sag

Prince Harry - 15 Sept 1984, 3.20 p.m. GMT, 51N32, 00W12, Asc, 11 Cap,

Regards,
Jonathon
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: Diana and Dodi Al Fayed Killed in Car Crash
From: nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 20:18:21 +0900 (JST)

For those who haven't heard, Diana, former Princess of Wales, was killed in
a car crash in Paris with her lover Dodi Al Fayed as they tried to evade the
media.

Her chart data is as follows: 1 July 1961 at 7.45pm, Sandringham, England
(52N50, 0E30) (Source: Buckingham Palace).

Looking at the transits, tPluto is sq nMars, tUranus conj nJupiter, tNeptune
conj nSaturn, tMars conj n Neptune and tUranus/Jupiter sq n Neptune.

Does anyone have any info on the time of the accident?

Best,

Neil


Thread: RE:Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
From: neptunenan@kellnet.com (Nancy Perrott) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 05:58:25 -0400


With the shocking news of the death of Princess Diana, I sadly write you
with the birth data of members of the immediate family. Source: Royal
database from JigSaw software. The charts clearly reflect this impacting
event.

The late Princess Diana, Princess of Wales
July 1 1961
7:45 pm
bst -1:00
Sandringham, UK
00E30 52n50
SolarMaps gives Mercury desc. close to Paris, no parans.

Prince Charles
Nov. 14, 1948
9:14 pm
gmt 0 hrs
London, Eng. 13:16 Aries mc

Prince William
June 21, 1982
9:03 pm
bst -1:00
London
2:28 Scorpio mc

Prince Harry
Sept. 15, 1984
gmt 0 hrs
London, Eng
0W10 51n31
23:26 Pisces mc


----------
> From: GKenni7777@aol.com


> WHERE IS EVERYBODY IN REGARD TO PRINCES DI OF WALES?
>
> WHT IS HER BIRTH DATA


Thread: Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
From: Keli Manson Sinclair <sinman@es.co.nz> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:09:27 +1200

>Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:08:31 +1200
>To: GKenni7777@aol.com
>From: Keli Manson Sinclair <sinman@es.co.nz>
>Subject: RE:Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
>In-Reply-To: <970831024509_1294006403@emout07.mail.aol.com>
>
>I've got 1 July 1961 7:45pm GMD Sandringham 52N50 000E30 for her birthdate
>An early breaking news report on the Net put the accident at 12:35 am in
Paris and her death was recorded at 4:00 am Paris time.
>Terribly sad and shocking.
>
>Regards, Keli
>
>
>At 02:45 AM 8/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>WHERE IS EVERYBODY IN REGARD TO PRINCES DI OF WALES?
>>
>>WHT IS HER BIRTH DATA
>>
>>_______________________
>>In a message dated 97-08-30 06:43:20 EDT, you write:
>><< From: jschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz)
>> Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
>> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com >>
>>
>>


Thread: Princess DI
From: Sunlite <sunlite@afn.org> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 04:21:02 -0400 (EDT)

Hello,

Does anyone know the birth info of Dodi Fayed? And what about the exact
time of the accident?

Any suggestions as to where to look on the net. I thought British
astrologers would be the best people to ask, but who?

Thanks,

Ellen


Thread: Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
From: GKenni7777@aol.com Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 02:45:09 -0400 (EDT)

WHERE IS EVERYBODY IN REGARD TO PRINCES DI OF WALES?

WHT IS HER BIRTH DATA

_______________________
In a message dated 97-08-30 06:43:20 EDT, you write:
<< From: jschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz)
Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com >>


Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:22:03 -0700

>>Julienne wrote:

>
>As I have said, Jonathan, I don't disagree with devoting the List to its
>stated purpose. Nor am I an apologist for the asteroids - I am just
>exploring them.

I don't know enough about your work to comment but thanks for setting that out.

You let me know what you find with Lilly, and I'll let you
>know what I (and others) find with the asteroids...and then we can put
>together a whole car.

Should be some hell of a machine! Yes, I agree this is the approach to take.
It seems more and more to me that astrology is something so large that many
different approaches are needed by different personality types.

All the best,
Jonathon
>

>
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: House sale
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:22:05 -0700 (PDT)

>Dear Miriam,

Please confirm the ascendant for this chart is 19 Pisces.

You wrote:
>
>I have looked at the chart in the way you [Frank and myself] suggest and
this it what I find.
>
>My daughter's significator is the Moon at 0 Sag. The buyers significator is
>Saturn at 20 Aries. These will trine in 20 degrees.

But after the Moon has completed a square to Mercury (equivalent to a
sextile in southern hemisphere signs of short ascension).
If this sale goes through then I suggest it is because of Mercury's
rulership of the radical fourth.

The sale is going
>through and settlement will be IN 20 DAYS AFTER THE CHART WAS CAST. The
>ruler of Alyson's finances is the Sun and the buyers finances is again
>Saturn. They are in trine orb 31 minutes. Saturn is also on the cusp of the
>10th from the 5th - the price of the property, the price is very low.

That certainly fits.
>
>Thanks for your suggestion. This way of looking at the chart certainly told
>the story.
>
>Thanks too to Jonathan for your input. Just a question though. How can you
>say that the Moon is VOC when it is at the beginning of a sign and will go
>on to aspect other planets before going on to the next sign?

This keeps on coming up in discussion - Carol, is it possible to have an FAQ
section for this listing?

Briefly, Sue Ward in 1993 Correspondence with Maurice McCann and repeated in
the most recent edition of Horary Practitioner, argues that it is the lack
of application which makes the moon v/c. I'll see if I can dig out some text
to email you the details in full. I have used this method for some time and
found it to be effective.

Although the Moon is v/c here it is in Sagittarius so we can say that it
still performs "somewhat" to quote Lilly.

Please keep us up to date with the final outcome - I find this an
interesting chart.

All the best,
Jonathon
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: House sale
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 14:22:04 -0700 (PDT)

>>
>I don't know for sure, but Jonathan may have had the same problem I did.

It's possible - I had the Moon at 0 24' Sag but used a 9.5 hour difference.
See my separate posting for further details.

(Just now, I recalculated the chart
>for a +9-hour time zone and got the correct result.) Please confirm rising
degree.
>
All the best,
Jonathon
>
>
Visit the Tree of Life website at:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~treelife


Thread: Princess DI? WHAT IS HER BIRTHDATA?
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:07:06 -0700

The time of the accident was reported as early this morning (31 aug 1997)
"just after midnight" (a.p. wireservice, cnn, msnbc) in the southeast
section of Paris. There seems to be several hours lapse between the actual
time of the late princess' death and the announcement which came at 4:00
a.m. local time.

I hope that this is helpful to you.

Dorothy J. Kovach 

     princess diana of england - natal
     01 Jul 1961
     7.45 P.M.
     0.30 EAST
     52.30 NORTH
     13H  25M  18S
     Regiomontanus
                 13 SCO             23 LIB             16 VIR
                     *                *                *
                                      *                PL06Vir
                        *             *             *  MA01Vir
     29 SCO                           *                NN29Leo     23 CAN
          *                *  NE08Sco *          *     UR23Leo    *
              *                       *              PF04Leo  *
                  *           *       *       *           *
                      *               *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                              *               *              SU09Can
                             *                 *             ME03Can
     18 SAG ******************                 ******************* 18 GEM
                             *                 *
                              *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                      *               *               *
                  *           *       *       *           *
              *  SA27Cpr              *              VE24Tau  *
          *    JU05Aqu     *          *          *                *
     23 CPR    MO25Aqu                *                            29 TAU
               SN29Aqu  *             *             *
                                      *
                     *                *                *
                 16 PIS             23 ARI             13 TAU

At 02:45 AM 8/31/97 -0400, you wrote:
>WHERE IS EVERYBODY IN REGARD TO PRINCES DI OF WALES?
>
>WHT IS HER BIRTH DATA
>
>_______________________
>In a message dated 97-08-30 06:43:20 EDT, you write:
><< From: jschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz)
> Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com >>
>
>
>


Thread: Musings for Today
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 07:36:36 -0400

At 03:58 AM 8/29/97 EDT, you wrote:
>*** Resending note of 08/29/97 02:14

>
>>Today (28 August 1997) marks the 27th wedding anniversary of A
Traditional
>>Astrologer and She Who Must Be Obeyed (aka my Lovely Bride). The children

>>always side with her :(, except for Extremely Beautiful Daughter, who

>>remains loyal to "Daddy." :)

>
>Many congrats to you and your lady, Frank!! Here's to the next 27years!!

Thank you! It just seems to get better.


Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Musings for Today
From: JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:14:34 -0400 (EDT)

Hi Julienne, At 04:46 AM 8/29/97 +0000, you wrote:
>At 03:15 PM 8/28/97 +0000, Frank Ernest wrote:
>>1. What is "bubbles and squeak?"
>
>I think "bubble and squeak" is alcohol...no?

Cabbage and potatoes fried together, according to the dictionary (I had
remembered the cabbage part but couldn't remember the other part). The name
comes from the sound it makes while cooking.

-JoAnne


Thread: Musings for Today
From: Lynda Hill <lhill@peg.apc.org> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:11:30 +1000

Julienne wrote:
>
> At 03:15 PM 8/28/97 +0000, Frank Ernest wrote:
> >To the wonderful and gracious members of the List and the List Owners:
>
> I think "bubble and squeak" is alcohol...no?
>
> Julienne

No, actually bubble and squeak is left overs fried in a pan - most
usually vegetables meat, but it can just be vegetables. Sort of like
last night's dinner rehashed.

Love from DownUnder
Lynda


Thread: Musings for Today
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 04:46:11 +0000

At 03:15 PM 8/28/97 +0000, Frank Ernest wrote:
>To the wonderful and gracious members of the List and the List Owners:
>
>This has nothing to do with astrology or William Lilly. It is a day when
>Saturn has stopped bashing me and allowed some trans-Saturnian insanity to
>creep into my life.
>May God preserve us!
>
>Today (28 August 1997) marks the 27th wedding anniversary of A Traditional
>Astrologer and She Who Must Be Obeyed (aka my Lovely Bride). The children
>always side with her :(, except for Extremely Beautiful Daughter, who
>remains loyal to "Daddy." :)
>
>Questions for Those Who Know These Things:
>
>1. What is "bubbles and squeak?"
>
>2. What is "toad in the hole?"
>
>Are these food? If they are, I will eat them. :)

"Toad in the hole" is sausage in batter - baked. I make it deliciously. :)
It's best with English or Australian sausage.

I think "bubble and squeak" is alcohol...no?

Julienne


Thread: Musings for Today
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 03:58:08 EDT

*** Resending note of 08/29/97 02:14

>Today (28 August 1997) marks the 27th wedding anniversary of A Traditional
>Astrologer and She Who Must Be Obeyed (aka my Lovely Bride). The children
>always side with her :(, except for Extremely Beautiful Daughter, who
>remains loyal to "Daddy." :)

Many congrats to you and your lady, Frank!! Here's to the next 27years!!

Hi Julienne

>I think "bubble and squeak" is alcohol...no?

Er, no ..... bubble and squeak is a mixture of left over veggies and potatoes,
shaped into small rounds and then fried,
very often cooked on a Monday to use up the remains of the traditional
Sunday roast. However, nowadays it tends to have become a dish in its own
right and is usually cabbage and mashed potatoe mixed together and then shallow
fried. I think there are even frozen food versions of this traditional
'use up the scraps' meal.

Regards

Angela

---- End of mail text

Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow:
Thread: SUBJECT
From: WHOFROM Date: DATETIME


Thread: Musings for Today
From: nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 09:52:16 +0900 (JST)

Hi Frank,

>Today (28 August 1997) marks the 27th wedding anniversary of A Traditional
>Astrologer and She Who Must Be Obeyed (aka my Lovely Bride). The children
>always side with her :(, except for Extremely Beautiful Daughter, who
>remains loyal to "Daddy." :)

Congratulations. (BTW, you were married a few days before my birth.)

>Questions for Those Who Know These Things:
>
>1. What is "bubbles and squeak?"
>
>2. What is "toad in the hole?"
>
>Are these food? If they are, I will eat them. :)

Bubble (not bubbles) and squeak is a dish of leftover boiled cabbage,
potatoes and sometimes cooked meat fried together. So-called because of the
sound made when cooking it.

Toad-in-the-Hole is a dish of sausages baked in batter. Not sure why it is
called that.

But if you really want some good food, try haggis (Scottish dish made from
sheeps or calves offal, oatmeal, suet and seasonings boiled in a skin made
from the animals stomach)! Best served with neeps (turnips) and tatties
(potatoes).

Best,

Neil



Thread: Musings for Today
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:15:10 -0400

To the wonderful and gracious members of the List and the List Owners:

This has nothing to do with astrology or William Lilly. It is a day when
Saturn has stopped bashing me and allowed some trans-Saturnian insanity to
creep into my life.
May God preserve us!

Today (28 August 1997) marks the 27th wedding anniversary of A Traditional
Astrologer and She Who Must Be Obeyed (aka my Lovely Bride). The children
always side with her :(, except for Extremely Beautiful Daughter, who
remains loyal to "Daddy." :)

Questions for Those Who Know These Things:

1. What is "bubbles and squeak?"

2. What is "toad in the hole?"

Are these food? If they are, I will eat them. :)

To Miriam Leister:

Finally figured out what went wrong with my chart calcs. I forgot to
compensate for Daylight Savings Time. Saturn strikes again. You are
guiltless :), while I, well, am embarrassed. :(

To Whom It May Concern (you know who you are):

I am not a "wicked person" :(, although She Who Must Be Obeyed agreed with
you for 27 years of different reasons. :)

And, as Saturn returns, allow me to end somewhat seriously. I have posted a
chart analysis for the resumption of the Belfast talks on my web site for
those interested. I am working a chart for the Japanese surrender at the
end of World War II. Will post it on my web site when it is done. If there
was ever a chart that illustrates the workings of the trans-Saturnian
planets, this one is it!

Thank you all for indulging me for a few moments of trans-Saturnian whimsy.

Warm Regards To All,


Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Moon and It's Aspects
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:27:21 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-27 20:26:24 EDT, you write:

<< I am having trouble integrating the Moon into my horary interpretations.
I
know that it represents the querent along with the Ascendant. I also am
unsure of knowing what it's first and last aspects are in reading the chart.
Any spelled out instuctions would be helpful.
>>

The Moon co-rules the querent, but usually the ruler of the Ascendant has
primary significance in that regard. The Moon also shows the general
conditions surrounding the querent and reflects the timing of events related
to the question. The aspects of the Moon have a general significance related
to the question. However, if Cancer rules the cusp of the querent or the
quesited, then the Moon becomes a primary significator and must be studied
more carefully for specific indications regarding the questions.

Hope this helps.

Tony

Thread: Diurnal vs.Nocturnal
From: KiearieAnna <portent@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:59:30 -0700

Dear Sue,
>>Diurnal meaning above the horizon or as in a clockwise direction -
>>>>>from 6am.to 6pm,(east to west) the day hours as in positioning in
>>the wheel,how one might place the sun as designator of time in the
>>>>>chart -(other planets may occupy space there also)- from the 12th
>>house;11th house;10th house;9th house etc.,until the 7th house is
>>>>>reached. Then beginning with the occupation of the 6h house
>>towards the Asc.; the night hours or Nocturnal, from 6pm-until
>>>>>6am,(west to east) still going clockwise if you will; 6th house;
>>5th house 4th house and so on up to and encompassing all of the 1st
>>>>>house. These houses are below the horizon, and may be considered
>>negative in that they tend to the development of what ever influence
>>>>>is found in them in secrecy. They do not come to recognition as
>>readily as do houses above the horizon which may be considered
>>>>>>postive:(receiving the Sun's rays; as in Nocturnal being
>>negative ruling the night hours and under the Moons beams;
>>>>>>i.e.Conscious v.s.Subconscious) You might also think of them in
>>relationship as to waxing or waning by the strength of their powers.
>>>>>The houses above the horizon tend to the ready influences found
>>in their governship in such a way that they gain recognition. Hope
>>>>>this is qualifying enough for you Sue.......In Learning...... Portent@teleport.com


Thread: Venus and the elements
From: "J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix10.ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:42:16 +0000

DENIS LABOURE wrote -

> Is Venus wet and HOT (Ptolemy, Morinus) or wet and COLD (Al-Biruni,
> Lilly, Lulle, Rantzau) ?

Hi Denis!

The problem is larger than that, because Morinus also declared
Jupiter to be moderately hot and DRY, just as he declared Venus to be
moderately wet and cold. (AG, p 302-303)

Furthermore, as we know, Morinus was a major reformer of technique,
among other things, proposing a new set of Triplicity rulers (pp
341-343), and rejecting the Terms (p 346).

Unfortunately, horary is not a good method to ascertain the answer,
because a delineation seldom truns on the qualities. The obvious
place to look is medical astrology. Even there, it's clear that by
the Medieval period, the qualities of the sign a planet was
emphasized over the qualities of the planet itself: witness the
method for computing the complexion.

One possible way to sort this out is to compare the qualities and
the planet rulerships assigned to the same substance. I am working on
this, but won't have a satisfactory answer for another six months or
so.

---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction

Thread: Fwd: Astrologer in Philly?
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:56:24 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-08-18 13:24:22 EDT, pstandaart@wesleyan.edu writes:

<< Subj: Astrologer in Philly?
Date: 97-08-18 13:24:22 EDT
From: pstandaart@wesleyan.edu (Peter Standaart)
To: AirCactuss@aol.com (Astrological Society of Connecticut),
Alphee1@aol.com, alphee@ix.netcom.com, AstSocOfCT@aol.com,
Carolyn_Egan@Brown.edu, CCumming@WorldNet.ATT.net (Catherine Cumming),
Cfrese5770@aol.com, clayforms@aol.com, david.drinnan@gdc.com,
Deb0824@aol.com, Glostar@aol.com, Hofstead@earthlink.net,
KataHag@WorldNet.ATT.net (Kathy Simpson), kt@earthling.net (Kate Warfel),
Laura.magnussen@snet.net (Laura Magnussen), Mambroz@aol.com,
Mrla0827@aol.com, Prior@cyberbury.net (Kathy Prior), Scala@aol.com,
StarWlkr26@aol.com, Sun1640@aol.com, Tony_LaB@Msn.com, TonyLouis@aol.com,
unicornbk@aol.com, VBMARTIN@aol.com, XEFC78A@Prodigy.com
CC: ChezVees@aol.com (Libby Van Cleve)

Dear Friends and Family of the Astrological Society of Connecticut,

I have a close astrologer friend who would like the name of a good
counseling astrologer in Philadelphia. Her friend in Philadelphia is
seeking an astrologer, but does not have a clue about getting good
recommendations. She would like someone established, but who would be
accessible within the next few weeks, i.e. no year-long waiting list, etc.

If you know of anyone, or have any connections we could follow up
on, please, forward them to me at the above e-mail address.

Thank you very much,

Peter Standaart
Board Member of the ASC
>>


---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: pstandaart@wesleyan.edu (Peter Standaart)
To: AirCactuss@aol.com (Astrological Society of Connecticut),
Alphee1@aol.com, alphee@ix.netcom.com, AstSocOfCT@aol.com,
Carolyn_Egan@Brown.edu, CCumming@WorldNet.ATT.net (Catherine Cumming),
Cfrese5770@aol.com, clayforms@aol.com, david.drinnan@gdc.com,
Deb0824@aol.com, Glostar@aol.com, Hofstead@earthlink.net,
KataHag@WorldNet.ATT.net (Kathy Simpson), kt@earthling.net (Kate Warfel),
Laura.magnussen@snet.net (Laura Magnussen), Mambroz@aol.com,
Mrla0827@aol.com, Prior@cyberbury.net (Kathy Prior), Scala@aol.com,
StarWlkr26@aol.com, Sun1640@aol.com, Tony_LaB@Msn.com, TonyLouis@aol.com,
unicornbk@aol.com, VBMARTIN@aol.com, XEFC78A@Prodigy.com
CC: ChezVees@aol.com (Libby Van Cleve)
Date: 97-08-18 13:24:22 EDT

Dear Friends and Family of the Astrological Society of Connecticut,

I have a close astrologer friend who would like the name of a good
counseling astrologer in Philadelphia. Her friend in Philadelphia is
seeking an astrologer, but does not have a clue about getting good
recommendations. She would like someone established, but who would be
accessible within the next few weeks, i.e. no year-long waiting list, etc.

If you know of anyone, or have any connections we could follow up
on, please, forward them to me at the above e-mail address.

Thank you very much,

Peter Standaart
Board Member of the ASC




Thread: CA pages
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 03:21:56 EDT


Thanks very much, Carol. I will endeavour to mark my book accordingly and
hope that it all matches up.

Regards
Angela


Thread: !Unexpectedly found....Lost Designer Sheers!
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:33:36 +0000

At 01:52 PM 8/26/97 +0000, Vyri@aol.com wrote:
>>>Saluatations! (original chart has Jupiter and Uranus intercepted in 1st)
> Very unexpectedly...
>>>came across my sheers. Capricorn)

Sorry to be silly, but I saw the subject of this post, "Lost Designer
Sheers!" - and was trying to figure out what the fuss was about lost panty
hose ( or some such).

I now gather you meant "shears"? That would be a greater loss - unless
"sheers" included a lot of beautiful lingerie...:)

Julienne




Thread: Moon and It's Aspects
From: Sandra Bartman <sandee@golden.net> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:24:34 -0400 (EDT)

I am having trouble integrating the Moon into my horary interpretations. I
know that it represents the querent along with the Ascendant. I also am
unsure of knowing what it's first and last aspects are in reading the chart.
Any spelled out instuctions would be helpful.

From,
Sandra
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and with
all you mind. This is the first and greatest commmandment. And the second
is like it: Love your Neighbour as Yourself. All the Law and the Phrophets
hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)
>From Sandra e-mail sandee@golden.net
end


Thread: Practice Missing Child Chart
From: AstroMaggi@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:37:34 -0400 (EDT)

This might be a good chart to look at since the child was found. Five year
old Brynce disappeared while playing hide and seek outside with his older
brothers. He was first missed at 8:30 PM CDT on August 24, 1997 in Toledo
Iowa 92W34'36 41N59'44. Police were called in at 9:10 PM and everyone in this
small town came out to look for the boy. His hand was discovered sticking out
of a pile of clothing in the family home at 11:25 PM. A policeman made the
discovery but the article didn't say which room he was in. He'd been hiding
there and fell asleep but was fine. Bryce has had a bout with cancer and is
known in this area because of community fundraisers in his behalf. One of his
kidneys did not develop and a tumor grew in it's place.

Maggie


Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:04:40 -0400

At 05:13 AM 8/26/97 EDT, you wrote:
>
>Hi Frank, thanks for the follow-up info, I had, literally, only just been

>thinking that I hadn't heard anything on the radio for ages about the case

>and hoping there would be some update soon, and voila! up comes your
post!!
>
>Now, I hesitate to ask this because I will doubtless show myself up as a

>complete and utter numbskull - so what's new! - but, here goes. What do

>you mean by 'diurnal chart'and it being a 'mundane technique'? I thought

>diurnal chart meant purely a daytime chart. What am I misinterpreting
here?
Hi, Angela!

Seems an imprecise term and I assumed too much. Diurnal charts are transit
charts which are erected based on the time and place of an original chart.
In this case, I erected a chart for the Manchester shooting using the date
for the capture of the alleged killer, but the time and place of the
shooting. I started trying them some time ago, but am not yet confident of
the results. Essentially, it's a day-by-day update of a base event.






Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Diurnal v.s.Nocturnal
From: s.fensalir@juno.com (Sue Jorgenson) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 05:47:50 -0700


On Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:25:25 -0700 portent@teleport.com (KiearieAnna)
writes:
>>Hello, my thoughts about Diurnal were simular...but I believe Diurnal
>v.s.
>>Nocturnal goes
>>something like this; planets above the horizon in the chart,that is
>to say
>>between the
>>cusp of the 1st and 7th. Planets reletive to the placement
>of space passing
>>during the day are occuping durinal postitions. As different from
>>nocturnal or below the horizon
>>and between the 1st and 7th Cusp. An explanation of space >occupation
>of
>>the planets. Portent
>
Hi, Portent, just need a little clarification... You mean from the cusp
of the 7th to the 1st for diurnal and from the cusp of the 1st to the 7th
for nocturnal? I got a little confused seeing "cusp of 1st and 7th"
repeated twice - and this is one Mercury retrograde that has got me
knocked for a loop!

Thanks much!

Sue

Sue Fensalir
Fensalir Astrology
s.fensalir@juno.com
>

Thread: CA pages
From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:21:03 +7

Dear Angela,
>
> Carol, as a printer and purveyor of books, have you any thoughts or
> suggestions as to how to make these pages tally? And how can the tops be out
> of sync, but not the bottoms?

When I transcribed Christian Astrology I had a first edition copy
facsimilie to work with that I got from Olivia Barclay. In the book
she had corrected the pages this way.....
page 174 became 170
page 175 became 171
page 172 became 172
page 173 became 173
page 170 became 174
page 171 became 175

The pages match perfectly at both top and bottom.
This sort of thing happened frequently, in fact I have a couple of
first editions where the numbers had been marked out and new numbers
put in only they were the wrong new numbers!
Love & Light
Carol
==================================
William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
or traditional@halcyon.com
privately owned and brought to you by-
JustUs & Associates
Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
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Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
horary_astrology@compuserve.com
http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall

Thread: Job question
From: Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 07:38:37

Dear Listers,

I have another question for you. The question is "Will I be offered the job?
25 Aug 1997 9 27 pm ACST - 9.30 Sellicks Beach 35s18 138E25

Asc 17 51 Aries MC 19 50 Capricorn - two degrees off the Natal MC of the
querent.

The bugbear off course is that Satrun is rising - two degrees from the AC.
Generally I would say no. The books I have consulted say that A: The
question asked is not the real question. B: That no good will come of it.
C: That some misfortune will happen before it comes to fruition. However in
this case Saturn is the significator of the job - 10th house. It is close
to the AC - the querant and deposed by him - Mars in Scorpio - well placed.
With any other planet I would say the job is his.

My take is that he may be offered the job, but does not really want it or
it is not waht it seems or something else may come up.

What do you think?

Love from over here,
Miriam
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.

Thread: Princess Di Hurt, Dodi Fayed Killed
From: Dorothy J Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:06:25 -0700

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/i/AP-Princess-Diana-Crash.html

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[banner] [VISA . It's everywhere you want to be]
[toolbar]

August 30, 1997

Princess Di Hurt, Dodi Fayed Killed

--------------------------------------------------------
A.P. INDEXES: TOP STORIES | NEWS | BUSINESS | SPORTS | ENTERTAINMENT
--------------------------------------------------------

Filed at 9:22 p.m. EDT

By The Associated Press

PARIS (AP) -- Diana, Princess of Wales, was seriously
injured in a car crash early Sunday that killed her
boyfriend, Dodi Fayed, and the chauffeur, police said.

The crash happened shortly after midnight in a tunnel
along the Seine River at the Pont de l'Alma bridge,
while paparazzi followed her car, a police spokesman
said on condition of anonymity.

The high-speed pursuit ended in a crash in the tunnel
that trapped several people in a pileup, France Info
radio reported. Police cars and vans with flashing
lights filled the site outside the tunnel and
authorities blocked off the area.

Fayed, son of the billionaire Egyptian owner of London's
prestigious Harrod's department store, was killed in the
accident along with the chauffeur, the spokesman said.

The fourth person in the car, a bodyguard, was also
seriously injured in the crash, the spokesman said. He
would not say where Diana or the bodyguard were
hospitalized.

Dodi and Princess Diana's close friendship became clear
to the outside world over the past five weeks, as the
couple took a series of holidays together in the
Mediterranean.

Newspapers reported Diana first met Fayed almost 10
years ago when he and Prince Charles played polo on
opposing teams. Films he has produced or co-produced
include the 1981 Oscar-winning ``Chariots of Fire,''
``The World According to Garp,'' ``F/X'' and ``Hook.''

On Aug. 21, Princess Diana and Dodi Fayed flew to the
French Mediterranean resort of St. Tropez for their
third holiday together in five weeks.

Reportedly a multi-millionaire, Dodi Fayed had homes in
London, New York, Los Angeles and Switzerland as well as
a garage full of luxury cars. His 1994 marriage lasted
just eight months.

Fayed's father, billionaire Mohamed Al-Fayed, owns the
Hotel Ritz in Paris in addition to Harrod's. He was a
friend of Princess Diana's father, the late Lord
Spencer.

In Martha's Vineyard, Mass., the vacationing President
Clinton and first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton learned of
the accident while attending a clambake.

They expressed concern and asked aides to keep them
informed of any developments, White House spokesman Joe
Lockhart said.

Home | Sections | Contents | Search | Forums | Help

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----------------------------------------------------------

[VISA . It's everywhere you want to be]

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Thread: CA pages
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 05:11:25 EDT


Thanks Dianna, but how do the pages you've photocopied tie up at the bottom?
When I was trying to sort it out 'by eye', I could get the tops of the pages
to concur, but then the bottoms didn't appear to follow. Example, p169 does
not appear to correctly follow on to p170 - but - p171 does appear to follow
p170!!

Carol, as a printer and purveyor of books, have you any thoughts or
suggestions as to how to make these pages tally? And how can the tops be out
of sync, but not the bottoms?

Sue, as our Lilly expert, how have you found this to sort out, or does your
book not have such inconsistencies? Or do they, in fact, make a sense that
is being missed?

Still confused
Angela


Thread: CA pages
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:19:17 -0400


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Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:

> Can anyone tell me if there is a fault in the facsimile printing of
> CA?
> Pages 169 to 176 appear to possibly be mixed up. At the bottom of
> each page
> appears the word which appears on the subsequent page, but on these
> pages
> it does not tally, and neither does the sense. For example, p169
> carries over
> 'tleman', but, in fact p170 begins 'in the second...'; p171 carries
> over
> 'weeks', but p172 begins 'the sign of the 12th house be humain..';
> p173
> carries over 'in', but p174 begins 'tleman'....
>
> However, swopping the pages around so that words and sense tally at
> the top of
> the page, then displaces the bottom of the page.
>
> Does anyone else have this problem or do I have a rogue copy? Failing
> which,
> can anyone explain it?
>
> Confused greatly
>
> Angela

Dear Angela (& all concerned) -

Wow! You're right! None of us noticed it before!

I think I have it figured out:

I xeroxed pp 169 to 176 and re-arranged them using the "tag" word at
bottom of each page that leads into next page; it works well if you put
them in the following order: 169, 174, 175, 172, 173, 170, 171, 176.
This may have been a problem in the original they (Regulus) were working
from; I'm told it was not in very good condition. But come to think of
it, since the page numbers are part of the "facsimile" - I'll bet the
mix-up goes all the way back to "Tho. Brudenell for John Partridge and
Humph. Blunden, in Blackfriers at the Gate going into Carter-lane, and
in Cornhil, 1647" !!

Best wishes, DKR

--------------94F52B6466637D0BCEF89D23
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<HTML>
Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00) wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Can anyone tell me if there is a fault in the facsimile
printing of CA?
<BR>Pages 169 to 176 appear to possibly be mixed up.&nbsp; At the bottom
of each page
<BR>appears the word which appears on the subsequent page, but on these
pages
<BR>it does not tally, and neither does the sense. For example, p169 carries
over
<BR>'tleman', but, in fact p170 begins 'in the second...'; p171 carries
over
<BR>'weeks', but p172 begins 'the sign of the 12th house be humain..';
p173
<BR>carries over 'in', but p174 begins 'tleman'....

<P>However, swopping the pages around so that words and sense tally at
the top of
<BR>the page, then displaces the bottom of the page.

<P>Does anyone else have this problem or do I have a rogue copy?&nbsp;
Failing which,
<BR>can anyone explain it?

<P>Confused greatly

<P>Angela</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;Dear Angela (&amp; all concerned) -

<P>Wow! You're right! None of us noticed it before!&nbsp;

<P>I think I have it figured out:

<P>I xeroxed pp 169 to 176 and re-arranged them using the "tag" word at
bottom of each page that leads into next page; it works well if you put
them in the following order: 169, 174, 175, 172, 173, 170, 171, 176.&nbsp;
This may have been a problem in the original they (Regulus) were working
from; I'm told it was not in very good condition.&nbsp; But come to think
of it, since the page numbers are part of the "facsimile" - I'll bet the
mix-up goes all the way back to<I> "Tho. Brudenell for John Partridge and
Humph. Blunden, in Blackfriers at the Gate going into Carter-lane, and
in Cornhil, 1647" </I>!!

<P>Best wishes, DKR</HTML>

--------------94F52B6466637D0BCEF89D23--


Thread: Diurnal v.s.Nocturnal
From: portent@teleport.com (KiearieAnna) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 19:25:25 -0700

>Hello, my thoughts about Diurnal were simular...but I believe Diurnal v.s.
>Nocturnal goes
>something like this; planets above the horizon in the chart,that is to say
>between the
>cusp of the 1st and 7th. Planets reletive to the placement
of space passing
>during the day are occuping durinal postitions. As different from
>nocturnal or below the horizon
>and between the 1st and 7th Cusp. An explanation of space >occupation of
>the planets. Portent



Thread: Venus and the elements
From: portent@teleport.com (KiearieAnna) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 17:42:59 -0700

>>Hello Denis,
Raphael describes Venus as Moist and Warm, ruling all senses of touch.
>>Could the list inform me if Raphael subscribed to Lilly's principals of
>>Horary? Thanks Portent



Thread: !Unexpectedly found....Lost Designer Sheers!
From: Vyri@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:52:48 -0400 (EDT)

>>Saluatations! (original chart has Jupiter and Uranus intercepted in 1st)
Very unexpectedly...
>>came across my sheers. I was very elated to find my misplaced, suspicion
shrouded,
>> mysterious scissors (in reference to my state of mind these days)incased
within a box, sandwiched in between
>> a book on prosperity thinking by Catherine Ponder along with some
Astrological research
>>papers I had logged from the William Lilly group,(surprisingly near an
article regarding
>>the where abouts of some lost contacts, from harris@interalpha.co.uk) Does
Jupiter
>>describe the alternate ruler of 2nd house possessions here? (may I use
him?...
I'd much
>>rather) I know the 1st Lord of the 2nd house of possessions is Neptune, and
in the 1st,
>>(and realize may accurately describe my state of mind (sigh) Pisces, my own
self undoing,
>> in this charts personality 1st, also adjoins
>>Pisces 2nd cusp of possessions, (being on the 2nd house cusp) describing
the misplacement
>> by my own hand (Neptune found back in 1st.(In my own progressed
chart Neptune and Saturn are having a field day conjunct my
>>Asc. in Libra this year, please excuse the imbalance) I truly have to watch
my train of thought these
>>days. Neptune is debilitated along with the moon in Cap. in 12th, so I was
wondering
>>if she is the one to look to regarding the element of time? My frame of
mind when I
>>found the scissors was 1st that of elation alternatly turning to suspicion,
then general
>>confusion. The correct appraisal of timing as to when certain events have
happened
>>over these past 4 weeks, has been the main culprit for my being in such a
confused state.
>>I wasn't at the time able to arrive at crucial conclusions in regards to
when the key was
>> put back, how it was, and if in fact it was given to me, personally by my
sister. Or weather
>> I remembered going through those papers on the shelve before, timing of
the correct order of events is the very important
>> foundation for making a correct assumption, that if in fact they were taken
or mislaid.
>> Briefly I began to wonder if the man I believed to have taken the scissors
had returned to
>> my home and put them back, because I not only found the sheers but also
found the key to
>> my home there among the papers, on the overhanging shelve (Capricorn) a
built in bar (Uranus, Aquarius, Capricorn)
>>adjoining my kitchen preparation area. I wish to believe my sister
returned the key not
>>long after the fears of mine were voiced openly to her, but I just can't
seem to remember
>> when.(For awhile I even thought she had come into my home and wedged the
sheers in between
>> the papers and book somewhat openly along with putting the key on the
shelve just out
>>of sight.(Mercury coming to the conjunction of Venus my home, openly) She
was at my house
>> not to long ago, say 6 or 7 days ago. (we later had an argument because of
this. (I maligned
>> both her and her boyfriend from fears I have not been able to let go of.)
But there is a happy ending to all of this (Venus conjunct Mercury) We are
talking more openly and caringly now.
>>From my nebulous/befuddled beginnings, a lot of positive energy has been
generated
>>(Mars in 8th house mutual reception with Saturn in Aries in third; my lower
mind; Saturn
>> ruler Cap. lst; Astrologers asc.) between my sister ((((5h house, Gemini
on its cusp representing
>> my 2nd sister; Mercury its ruler, trine Saturn, in prideful Leo, also soon
to conjunct with
>> the Lilly ruler 4th of Venus possessions, in the 7th, which also lead me
to believe she
>>could have put them back. Mercury also rules keys .....but wouldn't Mercury
have had to of
>>touched the Astrology papers and prosperity book? In the original chart he
opposes Jupiter
>> in the 1st, does he also represent the books and paper, putting them back
at a later date?))))
>> myself and her boyfriend......so many hidden subconscious evils have been
vented all for
>>the good. I am constantly renewing my passion for Astrology, and am
gaining
>> knowledge from all of the Astrological conversations and valued
information your members
>> have brought to light on the mailing list, I truly wish to say thanks. (
I'm afraid Jupiter in
>>the 1st is not held back anymore.) My sister and her friend seem to be much
more open
>>with each other also because of all this... . Thank you for the much gained
insight.
>>. At the time I came across my sheers, I was very aware
>> to note the time. (I became aware of Mercury being retrograde
also......Things will be corrected.... No doubt)

Aug. 23rd,l997@ 6:39PM/PDT; Beaverton, Oregon. 45N31/123W01 Thanks to
>>anyone who cares to comment or correct. Yours in learning.
V Y R I

Thread: Trans-saturnians
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:02:05 -0400

At 05:23 PM 8/21/97 GMT, you wrote:

>Are you saying that astrology is a like a matter of right and wrong
>(moral) or the meaning of life, not a tool which can have measurable
>effectiveness? If so, we'll just have to agree to disagree. To me, a
>horary which doesn't tell us if how and when we will find the lost ring
>is not doing what it's supposed to do.

If you wish to apply scientific methods to astrology, then do so. However,
I am not troubled by allowing astrology to work without them. To imply that
one cannot do a proper astrology without applied "scientific" methods is
just plain ridiculous. The problem with "science" is that it cannot account
for individual free will, indeed, can never do so as "science" is
irrevocably bound to a posteriori reasoning.

I have deleted the rest of the discussion because it is not germaine to the
study of William Lilly and Christian Astrology. If you wish to continue in
e-mail, I await your pleasure.


Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: House sale
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 08:42:08 -0400

At 10:11 PM 8/20/97, you wrote:
>Dear Frank,
>
>I have looked at the chart in the way you suggest and this it what I find.
>
>My daughter's significator is the Moon at 0 Sag. The buyers significator is
>Saturn at 20 Aries. These will trine in 20 degrees. The sale is going
>through and settlement will be IN 20 DAYS AFTER THE CHART WAS CAST. The
>ruler of Alyson's finances is the Sun and the buyers finances is again
>Saturn. They are in trine orb 31 minutes. Saturn is also on the cusp of the
>10th from the 5th - the price of the property, the price is very low.
>
>Thanks for your suggestion. This way of looking at the chart certainly told
>the story.

You're welcome. Glad I was able to help.
>
>Thanks too to Jonathan for your input. Just a question though. How can you
>say that the Moon is VOC when it is at the beginning of a sign and will go
>on to aspect other planets before going on to the next sign?
>
I don't know for sure, but Jonathan may have had the same problem I did.
When I erected the chart for the date, time and place you gave, Moon came
up 29Sco and VOC. The Ascendant on my chart came up in the wrong decanate
... I could go on, but you get the idea. Rather than assume your chart was
in error, I started delving into my calculations for errors. (Saturn has
been paying his "respects" lately.) :)

Reasons: Under the conditions you gave, a chart with a VOC Moon made no
sense (endings do not come before beginnings). A Moon at or near the
beginning of a sign did. Also the rising degree I calculated made no sense
(Pisces decanate does not describe Mom, Cancer decanate does). Yours did.
So, your chart had to be right, mine wrong. I didn't say anything because I
did not want to complicate the problem. (Just now, I recalculated the chart
for a +9-hour time zone and got the correct result.)


Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Venus and the elements
From: DENIS LABOURE <Laboure@wanadoo.fr> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:24:52 +0200

Hello,

Is Venus wet and HOT (Ptolemy, Morinus) or wet and COLD (Al-Biruni,
Lilly, Lulle, Rantzau) ?

Thank you.

Denis

Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 05:13:28 EDT


Hi Frank, thanks for the follow-up info, I had, literally, only just been
thinking that I hadn't heard anything on the radio for ages about the case
and hoping there would be some update soon, and voila! up comes your post!!

Now, I hesitate to ask this because I will doubtless show myself up as a
complete and utter numbskull - so what's new! - but, here goes. What do
you mean by 'diurnal chart'and it being a 'mundane technique'? I thought
diurnal chart meant purely a daytime chart. What am I misinterpreting here?

Thanks

Angela


Thread: HP22 & planetary hour
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 18:12:17

Dear Anne

I haven't seen a reply to this yet, so maybe I can help you out.

At 07:23 19/8/1997 +1000, Anne wrote:
>In the latest issue of the Horary Practitioner Issue 22 July '97 on page 11
>Sue Ward says in her excellent article on considerations before judgement
>"That the ruler of the hour and the ruler of the ascendant are of the same
>nature". Then she refers to footnote number 2 which says "It is not correct
>to look for agreement of nature between the ruler of the hour and the rising
>sign."
>Blast.
>I have been doing that all along. eg Sun being the planetary hour ruler, Sag
>on the Ascendant, both are hot and dry. So radical chart. But Jupiter ruler
>of Asc is hot and wet so according to Sue this is not a radical chart.

This rule is from Christian Astrology page 121/122.

>Have I misread something before or have others assumed the same?

I myself assumed the same, in fact I was taught that the hour ruler had to
match the rising sign by nature. 'Blast' isn't what I said when I
discovered it was wrong! I read over the text rather than into it assuming
that I had been told correctly.

Sue
>
>
>
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course

Thread: Moon void of course
From: "Andrzej Opejda" <stella@ikp.atm.com.pl> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:04:55 +0000

Yes, You can try my astrology home page:
http://www.atm.com.pl/~stella/almanach/próżny.htm
There You find calendar of Moon VOC.
This is in Polish up to now but numbers are international.

Andrzej
stella@ikp.atm.com.pl

Thread: Will The Call Result In A Positive Outcome
From: Hardaspect@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:12:15 -0400 (EDT)

Although my question in the subject line has all the trappings of a horary
test, I am really looking at the chart in the same way you'd look at an event
or Election chart such as the UPS strike, etc. Here is the scenario: On July
29, 1997 - 10:45 AM - 75w09 39n57, I received a call for an important
potential business development. I was told at that time to submit a budget
and then we'd go from there. The budget has been submitted as of last week.
Does anyone have a feeler about whether or not this opportunity will unfold
or whether it will fall by the wayside?

Thanks,

Basil Fearrington

Thread: Trans-saturnians
From: jschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:23:39 GMT

Frank, On Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:31:42 -0400, you (and I) wrote:

[ >> is JoAnne, > is Frank ]

>>I am a scientist, by training and by temperament. I know something
>>about astrology and I endeavor to research it. I, and anyone else who
>>has respect for the scientific method (which is a particular
>>philosophy with particular methods), will want to see not only
>>interesting ideas but the supporting evidence for them -- case
>>histories, and statistics if available.
>
>My regard for the scientific method and its applicability is not mutually
>exclusive of my training and temperament as a mystic.
>
>>Ideas without such support belong to other philosophies and as such we
>>can't debate them on the same basis. Right and wrong, for example, or
>>the meaning of life are not decidable using the scientific method
>>because it depends on measurable and reproducible results.
>
>Therefore, the scientific method is not applicable to such issues. That
>would be my point.

Are you saying that astrology is a like a matter of right and wrong
(moral) or the meaning of life, not a tool which can have measurable
effectiveness? If so, we'll just have to agree to disagree. To me, a
horary which doesn't tell us if how and when we will find the lost ring
is not doing what it's supposed to do.

>>I recently participated in a discussion (elsewhere) about an
>>astrological technique that, as far as I could see, had been
>>manufactured out of thin air. It looked interesting, it had some
>>"shape" to it, yet in the final analysis there was not only no
>>astrological reasoning behind it and no history behind it, but there
>>was not a single case history provided to support the technique.
>
>If there was no astrological reasoning, no tradition behind it, no evidence
>to support it, then any application of scientific standards would produce
>what? I do not see the point.
>>
>>I can only conclude that the idea was so orderly, so interesting and
>>so seductive that "it must be right." Perhaps it is, but I'm not
>>going to spend all my time chasing these kinds of ephemeral rainbow
>>holistic "solutions" because there are too many of them. Smoke a
>>couple of joints and you'll be able to come up with a few yourself.
>
>I do not "smoke joints", nor do I indulge myself in the kinds of things
>you're talking about. I fail to see any relevance to what I originally said.

I hope you'll forgive me if I might have something to say which is not
directly related to what you said.

First off, I did not accuse you of smoking anything or indulging in such
noodling. I was suggesting that it's easy for person X to come up with
theories that look and sound interesting, fascinating, and seem that they
must be right. Only by applying the theories in day-to-day practice will
one discover whether the theory is right or wrong. This is related to
the scientific method and its application to astrology. I thought that
was what we were discussing.

Essentially, I'm questioning some modern astrologers' penchant for
immediately finding astrological meaning in every newly discovered
astronomical object or phenomenon, in chaos theory, in relativity, in
string theory, in anything scientific they can hang a theory on, without
any regard to what the new idea really means. There's a difference
between adapting a system to a new paradigm, which is hard uncertain
work, and slapping a few new terms on a few old ideas, which is easy and
sells books.

I'm also suggesting that accepting things without examining them first is
no more sensible in astrology than it is in any other discipline, and
that the examination should go beyond "gee, that would be exciting if it
were true, so let's make it true." Traditional astrology has survived
because it works. New techniques must either hang around for hundreds of
years, or we can test them with the tools that honest scientists have
found to be reliable -- double blind studies, statistical analysis, and
so on.

And as to examining our old tools as well, you might wish to check out J.
Lee Lehman's book and her discussions on the Gauquelin effect intensified
by regarding sect. Not all scientific inquiry into astrology is
destructive.

>>>That has actually happened on at least one occasion. In 1910, Mickelson (of
>>>Mickelson-Morley fame) declared that all the laws of physics had been
>>>discovered. He said this even though Einstein, just five years earlier,
>>>turned the world of physics on its ear with his now-famous theory.
>>
>>I'd love to see that direct quote. Sure, the excitement of
>>consolidating certain aspects of physics previously thought to be
>>discrete unrelated entities might have led to an overstatement. Or
>>maybe his statement got mangled somehow. We've all heard the one
>>about someone saying we should close the U.S. patent office in 1910
>>because "everything that's worthwhile has already been invented."
>>It's a famous saying -- that no one ever said.
>
>I'm afraid someone did say it. I realize that scientists are overly
>sensitive about the missteps of other scientists, but the historical
>rewrites do get tiresome.

So you're saying you don't have the quote? I'll look for it myself,
then. I don't doubt that "someone" has said that, just that Michelson
was the culprit as you describe it.

And as I said, even if true, the quote doesn't condemn science, just a
particular scientist at a particular time. I'm not overly sensitive
about the missteps of other scientists, though I don't like that these
missteps (and bigger screwups and intentional lies) happen and I'm a
little ashamed of my colleagues when they do. However, I am sensitive
about unsubstantiated accusations. Aren't you?

If James Randi (who is not a scientist, by the way, but a stage magician)
makes accusations against astrology which are unfounded, are you not just
as angered by it?

I think you're placing me in the same camp with debunkers like Randi. He
is a performer first and foremost and is not above misstating his points
to get more attention; he makes just as many assumptions that "astrology
is wrong" that many others do that "astrology is right," without doing
the research, personal or scientific. He quotes studies that do not test
astrology as we know it as "proof" that astrology does not work.

>>The nature of the scientific method is to believe that the polls are
>>never closed; that new data can always invalidate what was thought to
>>be a fairly solid theory. New data is scrutinized closely but if it
>>turns out to be genuine it must be accepted and it must find a place.
>
>Eventually, that becomes the case.

Yes, eventually, and I'm glad we don't just jump up and rewrite the books
every time someone gets an anomalous result. Do you expect scientists to
roll over when some 14-year-old walks in to a physics lab and says, oh,
by the way, I made a perpetual motion machine? I hope not.

Neither would you or I roll over when someone comes in with some
gobbledygook astrobabble ideas. If we're interested, we test the new
idea, we ask the person to kindly explain how this theory came to be,
what is its background and pedigree and work history.

>>You can either fault the philosophy, or those who do not adhere to it,
>>but how can you say that the philosophy is wrong and those who do not
>>follow it are therefore wrong?
>
>I did not say that, so it is not possible for me to answer.

So, is the philosophy wrong? Are the scientists who fail to follow that
philosophy wrong? Which did I mishear?

-JoAnne

Thread: Jammed attachment
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:31:15 -0400

To whom it may concern,
Someone sent me, probably on Tues, an e-mail with attachment under the
subject "Present"; for some reason it would not go thru and I had to
have Netcom delete it; they could not tell me who it was from. So I am
sending this out to let whoever it was know that it crashed (thanks
anyway!). If this gets to the sender, please let me know! Best wishes,
DKR


Thread: House sale
From: Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:11:56

Dear Frank,

I have looked at the chart in the way you suggest and this it what I find.

My daughter's significator is the Moon at 0 Sag. The buyers significator is
Saturn at 20 Aries. These will trine in 20 degrees. The sale is going
through and settlement will be IN 20 DAYS AFTER THE CHART WAS CAST. The
ruler of Alyson's finances is the Sun and the buyers finances is again
Saturn. They are in trine orb 31 minutes. Saturn is also on the cusp of the
10th from the 5th - the price of the property, the price is very low.

Thanks for your suggestion. This way of looking at the chart certainly told
the story.

Thanks too to Jonathan for your input. Just a question though. How can you
say that the Moon is VOC when it is at the beginning of a sign and will go
on to aspect other planets before going on to the next sign?

Love from over here,
Miriam

>By the way, did you attempt to read the chart with yourself as querent, or
>did you press ahead with the seller-First/buyer-Seventh reading?
>
>Frank Ernest

Thread: Manchester Shooting
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:43:46 -0400

Update from London Times of 17 august 1997: "A MAN was charged yesterday
with the murder of Dillon Hull, 5, who was shot dead while walking with his
stepfather near their home in Bolton, Greater Manchester, 11 days ago. Paul
Seddon, 26, who was remanded in custody until tomorrow by Bolton
magistrates, is also charged with the attempted murder of John Bates, the
boy's stepfather."

A diurnal chart based on the time and place of the original incident shows
Mercury, now in Eighth (near original house of shooting) at 16Vir very
close to station (killer unable to move) and exactly inconjunct Jupiter,
now ruler law-enforcement 12th and victims' First. Transiting Moon makes
exact trine to Venus (murdered child of original chart) and then goes
void-of-course (it's all over now). Since Jupiter rules 12th, the aspect to
Mercury shows the arrest and confinement.

Please allow me to advise that the use of diurnal charts is a mundane
technique I have not yet proven to myself. I offer the above for your
information and comments.

Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Suggestions please!
From: jKschmitz@qis.net (JoAnne Schmitz) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:40:09 GMT

The Freedom Astrology site has Cell Salts pages for all the signs,
lovingly contributed by Sue Miller (thanks Sue!). It's at:

http://www.qis.net/~jschmitz/freedom.html

On Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:57:36 +0100, you wrote:

>In message <871989666.052528.0@kiggee.demon.co.uk>, Lucy & Justyn
>Kendrick <Kiggee@kiggee.demon.co.uk> writes
>>Dear All,
>>
>>I have been lurking on your list for a while and would like to thank
>>everyone for the invaluable insights it has given me into an area of
>>astrology that beforehand baffled me!
>>
>>I am currently authoring a new web-site which I hope to turn into a good all
>>round guide to holistic practises, enabling the curious beginner to access a
>>wide variety of information on the net and elsewhere.
>>I was wondering if any of the list members have suggestions for good sites (
>>either their own or ones they know of) or publishers of material that I can
>>add to the pages on astrology in my site?
>>
>>Any suggestions will be very gratefully received
>>many thanks in advance
>>
>>Lucy.
>>
>Hi Lucy
>
>I can thoroughly recommend my own site!
>
>Regards
>
>David Ryan |Phone 011-44-181 874 8218 (from US)
>Kozmik Horoscopes | Fax 011-44-181-875 1025
>134 Elsenham Street |International: code+44-181-874-8218
>London SW18 5NP |email:kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk
>UK |http://www.demon.co.uk/kdm/hscope.html

-----------
when replying to me personally please note that my email address
must be modified slightly to work. Remove the letter "k" from my name.

Thread: Interesting chart
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:04:41 -0400

At 03:41 PM 8/19/97 BST, you wrote:

>I'm trying not to go under in the muddle that email communication inflicts
on >us. I'd like to clarify a couple of points.

Please explain "not to go under in the muddle." American not understand
some lingua Britannia. He try though. Hope British understand American
humor. :)
>
>I referred to the 'interesting chart' as a game because I knew (and you
knew I >knew) the 'answer': so it wasn't doing astrology for real - that's
why I called >it a game. I do appreciate the seriousness with which you
take the art because >of the success of your judgements.

Thank you for those kind words.
OK, seriously, "blind" charts should be real charts for a real event,
taking place at a real time and real place. Some are more difficult to read
than others. It is doing astrology for real. You did have an incident, but
the time you originally gave was not the time of the incident, therefore,
no chart drawn for the time, date and place you originally gave could
possibly identify the incident you were interested in. The time, date and
place you originally gave produced a stark, tragic, singular chart for an
event of which we both were unaware, you by mistake, I by choice.

There was too much in that chart for me to regard it as something trivial.
That's why I figured there must be some official notice somewhere of its
occurrence. As it happened, I was able to find such notice of an event
whose facts fit the chart exactly. Exactly, not probably, not maybe, but
exactly. If real life events do not match the astrological recounting of
said events, then astrology is worthless. With all due respect, the
incident you had in mind was trivial, was a chain of events not a singular
instance of something unusual. I did do a chart for the corrected time you
gave and could not identify anything pointed about it.

>But when you refer to 'physics', whose physics? Newtonian gravity is a
piece of string that holds a little thing close to a big thing
independently of time.

It appears that way because elementary Newtonian gravitational calculation
is for a specific time and specfic bilocation. One must employ Newtonian
calculus to account for time. Only Newton's gravitational constant is
independent of time, necessarily so.

>Einsteinian 'gravity' is as much a function of time as of space. The
>scientific, or Newtonian, revolution required replicable experiments
>independently of time.

Yes, that's why Newton's gravitational constant fell out. Newton relied on
the static, three-dimensional grid of a universe consisting of straight
lines with dimensions at right angles. He did not consider that space
itself might be curved. We do construct mathematical equations for a
specific time, which render time irrelevant to the particular calculation.
However, to claim that time has been rendered irrelevant because of it is
misleading. Einstein's gravimetric conclusions are based on relative
motions, concluding that time and space are necessarily inseparable for the
object in motion. As all objects ARE in motion continuously, time and space
are inseparable ipso facto.

>I suggest that that is why astrology was seen at the time to lack
scientific >credibility and fell from favour, it never operated within a
Newtonian >framework inasmuch as its experiments are no

Astrology fell into disrepute because of the Renaissance and the rise of
humanism. The "scientific" model cannot and does not account for anything
beyond the physical and material, which is its a posteriori limitation. IF
there had been, in fact, "nothing" to astrology, the Brave Young Turks of
Newton's time (and subsequent) would not have had to go to extraordinary
lengths to rewrite history and refer to astrologers as astronomers and
blatantly deny that such as Newton, Kepler, Galileo and Tycho Brahe were
astrologers.
>
>(I'm drawing on Geoffrey Cornelius' Moment of Astrology here), Cornelius
goes to great lengths to point out that horary only truly works when it is
'real', that is to say, when the judgement is to be acted upon (the woman
who consulted Lilly about her broken engagement). Which is also your point
about not being a 'game'. (On the other hand, I offered the chart because
we all need to practise somehow.)

It never hurts to sharpen one's deductive reasoning, but it does hurt when
one is required to deduce based on an erroneous set of facts and expected
to come to a correct conclusion.

Lilly pointed out that free will must be accounted for, i.e., the "broken
engagement." Cornelius is wrong. He attempts to render astrology into
celestial mechanics, which it is only partially, and human beings into
biological automatons. If the automaton doesn't react according to the
astrology, then the astrology is wrong. Rubbish. Horary astrology ALWAYS
works in competent hands. What doesn't work is a querent who disregards or
ignores competent advice. I refuse to accept that the tail should wag the
dog here.
>
>Cornelius also discusses at length a chart about his efforts to dispose of
his >aunt's house. Venus is at 9 gemini and mercury in 20 taurus. At a
critical >juncture in complicated negotiations he exercises 'mutual
reception by degree' >and now reconsiders the same chart but having venus
at 9 taurus and mercury at >20 gemini. I believe this is a valid rule of
horary, though hopefully someone >like Deb Houlding will have some info to
add. This is what I meant in my last >piece as a horary rule which defies
scient

It is not up to Horary Astrology to conform to the rules of "science." It
is up to "science" to conform to obvious reality, which "science" is more
politically-driven nonsense than observational/empirical. "Science" denies
that Astrology is empirically derived. In that sense, "science" is a liar.
"Science" claims that astrological correspondences do not occur at any rate
greater than that afforded by chance. Gauquelin (for one) proved them wrong
and they attacked his credentials and competence as a serious "scientist",
but not his facts.

Let us face an unpleasant fact here. "Science" fears anything than does not
conform to its Lucretian/Democritian political view of reality. I have no
reason, absolutely not one, to accept "scientific" rules as absolute
standards by which all must be judged. There is too much evidence to the
contrary.



Frank Ernest
A Traditional Astrologer
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest

Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 03:33:42 -0700

Julienne wrote:
>

>Actually, I work with 6000 asteroids. :) Because the heart is so much more
>prominent in a body, does not mean that the nerve endings have no importance
>or meaning. We need all of us to cover this giant umbrella from all
>perspectives. If those of us interested in one topic can study it, anf those
>interested in another can study that, and so on, eventually, if we can then
>communicate and share our studies, we will have covered all the spokes of
>the umbrella.

I don't disagree with this view but, as has been said, this particular list
is concerned with improving our understanding of one particular area.

May I offer another model for consideration?

Certainly the universe is always changing and we need to let go of deeply
held beliefs where they inhibit us. For me, the letting go was of a chunk of
the twentieth century astrology which I had learned when I found a different
set of rules to be more effective. I suspect many of the people on this list
would have a similar story.

The question of old v. new is only relevant if we think in terms of linear
time. Letting go of a twentieth century technique is the same process as
letting go of a seventeenth century technique. Letting go is letting go. The
ultimate test is "which technique does the job best?"

I see the rediscovery of traditional astrology rather as finding a wrecked
car on the scrap heap. The first job is to get the engine working and make
it roadworthy. Once that has happened we can begin to drive. Then we have
strip the rust down to bare metal and we can start putting a fresh coat of
paint on. Finally we might consider fitting a stereo system which probably
wasn't available when the car was scrapped.

The discovery of the text of Christian Astrology in the eighties is rather
like finding the old car. The stripping off of the rust and making it
roadworthy fits with the understanding of the classical approach while the
stereo system corresponds with the asteroids etc.

It seems to me that the last three to four years have seen us heavily
immersed in stage two with much research on such areas as void of course
planets, radicality, daily motion of Venus and Mercury.

I don't think this stage is anywhere near complete as yet. Personally, I
need to have a much better understanding of Lilly et al. before I get
immersed in the process of fitting asteroids to the system but it is
certainly possible that they have a place.

With all good wishes,
Jonathon





Thread: Christian Astrology
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:13:11 EDT


Can anyone tell me if there is a fault in the facsimile printing of CA?
Pages 169 to 176 appear to possibly be mixed up. At the bottom of each page
appears the word which appears on the subsequent page, but on these pages
it does not tally, and neither does the sense. For example, p169 carries over
'tleman', but, in fact p170 begins 'in the second...'; p171 carries over
'weeks', but p172 begins 'the sign of the 12th house be humain..'; p173
carries over 'in', but p174 begins 'tleman'....

However, swopping the pages around so that words and sense tally at the top of
the page, then displaces the bottom of the page.

Does anyone else have this problem or do I have a rogue copy? Failing which,
can anyone explain it?

Confused greatly

Angela


Thread: Trans-saturnians
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 05:30:24 +0000

At 12:45 PM 8/19/97 +0000, Frank Ernest wrote:
>At 12:19 AM 8/18/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>We should perhaps be a little more proud of what we have and neither seek
>>nor allow ourselves to be enticed into specious attempts at 'proving' our
>>science in terms which are quite alien to it. Say it loud - we're
>>astrologers & we're proud.
>
>I agree. There is no reason to attempt to "prove" astrology to those who
>know little or nothing about it and refuse to research it. There is no
>reason to attempt a justification of astrology to irrational materialists.
>I've tried this more often than I care to recount and it always results in
>a useless exchange of divergent politics.
>>
>>>What if medicine, modern technology, etc., were to claim that "All has
>>>already been discovered and is in the writings of the Gods of our
>>>Profession!" (for astrologers, read Kepler, et alia.) We wouldn't even have
>>>such fields as neuroscience, genetics, cell theory, etc.
>
>That has actually happened on at least one occasion. In 1910, Mickelson (of
>Mickelson-Morley fame) declared that all the laws of physics had been
>discovered. He said this even though Einstein, just five years earlier,
>turned the world of physics on its ear with his now-famous theory.

And what response did he get from the rest of the world? Reminds me of the
man who, a few years ago, proclaimed the end of history. History is clearly
still being made...:)

Julienne

**_________________________________________________________________

Julienne Sturm-Mullette
Owner: CHA*OS and CHA*OSBABIES Astrology Lists
Director: International Centre for Astrological Research and Studies
Host: YOU AND THE KOSMOS - Television and Radio Programmes
Counseling Center: Montclair, New Jersey, USA - 973-746-9030

_________________________________________________________________**


Thread: Suggestions please!
From: allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 01:14:01 -0400

Hi, Lucy,

Visit http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/allen_edwall to find demo
and shareware software for downloading, sample screens, magazine reviews,
feature lists, text files, links to other sources, etc.


Allen

Thread: UPS Strike
From: Shirley Gray <GrayShirley@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:39:27 -0400

Frank Ernest wrote:
>
> What follows is my mundane astrological take on the UPS situation.
>
> UPS workers/Teamsters Union went on strike at 12:01 AM EST. Since the
> negotiations were taking place in Washington, DC, I used that location.
>
> Taking the sixth house (24 Vir) for the union and the 10th (24 Cap) for UPS
> company:
>
> Union ruler sixth, Mercury, is in the 5th of risk-taking, strong in Virgo
> approaching (but slowing in motion) Venus fallen in Virgo. Venus rules and
> trines Taurus rising which would help except that Mercury will not catch
> Venus. Mercury, the union leaders, is slowing down and makes its station on
> August 17th/18th before it can contact Venus (refranation) which, at that
> time, changes sign from fallen Virgo to strong Libra. The indication is
> that union leaders may have to refer the contract to the workers (something
> which they have so far refused to do).
>
> Mercury is also contracts, so the union leaders have analyzed and
> identified with the contract offer and regard it as the other side wanting
> too much (loosely opposed to retrograde legal Jupiter in
> Aquarius-of-disruptive-changes sextile UPS management).
>
> UPS Ruler 10th, Saturn, in behind-the-scenes 12th, is in fall in Aries,
> hemmed in (intercepted) and retrograde. Saturn of UPS management is sextile
> to Jupiter in 10th. However, Jupiter is weak in Aquarius and retrograde.
> Saturn does trine fifth cusp, calculated risk, but retrograde means
> rethinking strategy.
>
> Mercury and Saturn make no aspect, so union leaders and UPS management are
> out-of-touch with each other. Both sides are dealing from weak positions.
> Mars strikers are volatile and some altercations between strikers and
> others have been reported.
>
> Mars (workers) in sixth is separating from an opposition to Saturn in the
> 12th. Mars is detrimented and also hemmed in as is Saturn. The interesting
> feature is that Mars is in the sign of Saturn's exaltation, while Saturn is
> in Mars Home. It reinforces the opposition between two parties both dealing
> from weakness with ineffective help from outside.
>
> Both Mars and Saturn aspect Jupiter; Mars approaching a trine while Jupiter
> is approaching a sextile to Saturn. I expect Jupiter is the federal referee
> (in the 10th of executive authority, but out-of-sign). Jupiter in the sign
> on the 11th-of-Congress cusp and close to the cusp, but backing away, is
> additionally ineffective by opposition to Sun and Moon in Leo, square to
> Fortuna. Everyone loses money and prestige on this one.
>
> The union took the bigger risk by going on strike. Mercury rules and
> squares second cusp which may indicate limited resources to finance a
> strike. (Announced on TV that strike pay is $55 per week and striking
> workers cannot qualify for unemployment benefits. Some workers have crossed
> the picket lines to work; others are seeking work to replace lost income.)
>
> President Clinton (Leo Sun in Sag decanate) did refuse to intervene saying,
> "It would be inappropriate." Against the law would be more like it as legal
> Jupiter (in fact-finding Gemini decanate) opposes him and rules
> law-enforcing Pisces 12th. Sun (Clinton) is square Taurus rising in turn
> ruled by weak Venus, rendering the President powerless in the public view.
>
> Fortuna is semisextile to Saturn, inconjunct to Mars and square Jupiter.
> The federal referee is out-of-luck and both workers and UPS company are
> under financial stress with UPS in a slightly better position. Finances may
> be the imperative that forces a settlement.
>
> The Moon (public) is in the house of the union leaders, but different sign.
> Moon trines UPS management (Saturn) and sextiles UPS workers (Mars), so the
> public is sympathetic to workers, but favors management and opposes a
> government-imposed settlement.
>
> The two reportedly crucial issues are part-time workers and the union
> pension fund. The union wants more full-time jobs; the company wants
> control of the pension fund. Mars disposes Saturn and rules the
> pension-fund seventh (second of sixth), so the workers are likely to retain
> control and impose conditions. When Venus changes sign and enters equity
> Libra, the workers may get more full-time jobs. With Mercury retrograde and
> under increased worker pressure, the union leaders will have to reconsider
> the offered contract more favorably.
>
> As reported in the news, neither side wants a protracted strike. Mars of
> workers leaves intercepted Libra for Scorpio on 15 August giving more
> strength to the workers. It may be enough to force a vote on the contract.
> I expect the strike to conclude when Venus leaves Virgo for Libra on 17/18
> August.
>
>
>
> Frank Ernest
> You are invited to visit my home page at:
> http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Take a bow, Frank. You predicted that the UPS strike would end on August
17/18. Right on.
Shirley

Thread: Suggestions please!
From: david ryan <kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 23:57:36 +0100

In message <871989666.052528.0@kiggee.demon.co.uk>, Lucy & Justyn
Kendrick <Kiggee@kiggee.demon.co.uk> writes
>Dear All,
>
>I have been lurking on your list for a while and would like to thank
>everyone for the invaluable insights it has given me into an area of
>astrology that beforehand baffled me!
>
>I am currently authoring a new web-site which I hope to turn into a good all
>round guide to holistic practises, enabling the curious beginner to access a
>wide variety of information on the net and elsewhere.
>I was wondering if any of the list members have suggestions for good sites (
>either their own or ones they know of) or publishers of material that I can
>add to the pages on astrology in my site?
>
>Any suggestions will be very gratefully received
>many thanks in advance
>
>Lucy.
>
Hi Lucy

I can thoroughly recommend my own site!

Regards

David Ryan |Phone 011-44-181 874 8218 (from US)
Kozmik Horoscopes | Fax 011-44-181-875 1025
134 Elsenham Street |International: code+44-181-874-8218
London SW18 5NP |email:kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk
UK |http://www.demon.co.uk/kdm/hscope.html

Thread: Trans-Saturnians
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:47:23 BST

Hi
I agree personality theories have had a bad press of late and the Jungian stuff fitted the model very well. I don't think Eysenck was doing more than pointing out a set of correlations just to annoy other psychologists. There was a letter of his in The Psychologistlast December telling everyone to stop being so sceptical and to pay attention to the Mars effect, also pointing out that a reviewer who refered to it as a time of year effect rather than a time of day effect hadn't done his homework. I canfess I hadn't got round to the book they were talking about; The Tenacious Mars Effect (1996) by Ertel & Irving, do you know it? I still think it's a long jump to claim Eysenck as a sympathiser.
I was more interested when I read your remark, in how astrology relates to the cognitive branch of psychology and constructivism generally. I'd never given it any thought until I read your comment and wondered if perhaps you had. Too difficult for bear of small brain like me just at the moment.

cheers
Jon

>In message <180897204549000C.jon@emarkt.com>, jon@emarkt.com writes
>>Hi David,
>>As a psychologist, well at least a member of the BPS, I'd be interested to know
>>how psychology is a branch of astrology!
>>cheers
>>Jon
>>
>Let me rephrase that slightly, one of the areas that astrology gives a
>lot of insight into is the psychological make up of people.
>
>There is the whole Jungian school of course that does quite literally
>use astrology in preparing their analysis.
>
>While Hans Eysenck has done some work on astrology, (his chart shows
>very clearly he is an introvert by the way).
>
>Where the paths start to divide is when the psychological descriptions
>of personality are seen as the final arbiter, the insight of astrology
>is that though the personality can become disturbed as shown by the moon
>the underlying individuality is still whole, in other words there is a
>deeper level than the personality.
>
>Regards
>
>
>David Ryan |Phone 011-44-181 874 8218 (from US)
>Kozmik Horoscopes | Fax 011-44-181-875 1025
>134 Elsenham Street |International: code+44-181-874-8218
>London SW18 5NP |email:kdm@kdmdr.demon.co.uk
>UK |http://www.demon.co.uk/kdm/hscope.html
>

please send any reply to johannes@englandmail.com as this server is soon closing down. Thanks

Thread: Trans-Sun
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 17:52:51 +0000

At 04:16 AM 8/19/97 +0000, Michael K Jordan wrote:
>J.S.M.---
>
>I think you were caught in an elliptical argument, not having either Sun
>or Earth in the center :=) .... It may depend upon which planet your
>mind is thinking about at any time and where you place your concious
>sentient or ethereal being at any moment of thought since they all have
>different double center elliptical relations with the Sun (not to mention
>with each other as well). The physics of gravitation and levity would
>suggest that the Sun is not residing in a static spot in local space but
>can be displaced from its macro perceived residential space due to the
>gravitational alignments of its planetary fellow travelers. It is and
>shall remain a question of perspective. :=)
>
>One thing for sure is that everything is moving in a different direction
>and trying to comunicate at the same time. :=) The difference between
>conciousnesses is that some are controlled by gravity. while others are
>moved by levity. Science seems to sanctify gravity,- even so much as to
>change the definition of centrifugal to centripetal, converting eccentric
>levity to gravitational bondage. :=)
>
>Due to solar central attraction perspectives we are still hung up with
>Chuck and Di and Camilla. As we are ultimately able to move to other
>stars perhaps we shall be able to shed our "local star fantasies" and
>stop paying fealty to those whose gravitational attractions bring us to
>certain ruinious immolation. :=)
>
>How long