Thread: Void of Course Moon Redux
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:58:26 pdt

Dear Sue,

Thank you so much for your rapid response, you have a very nice website.

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 20:23:06 Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> writes:

>This is from the Justus retype of the 1582 edition:
>
>"The application happeneth when as the circles or beams of the planets
>come
>to join together by a corporal conjunction, or by aspect of the one
>half of
>their diameters..." p.28

I assume that the top quote is Dariot but I find it utterly incredible
for you to suggest that they are quotes describing a similar astrological
condition. Half of the diameters of the Sun and the Moon would amount to
one-half of one degree of a 360 degree zodiac. Talk about narrow
orbs...! This statement appears to refer to a partile conjunction and
when it occurs.

This next quote is the one which I have been trying to get you and your
student Rodger to address. Ms. Reeve pointed this out in the discussion.
This is what we (she and I) refer to when we we say that an
'application',-- for void of course determinations only-- includes the
whole time that the planet is in the sign. No mention at all of the
disclaimer of an applying orb, and no mention of a dissociate aspect.

This is the most basic concern of Horary Astrology. Without getting this
definition right no valid reading can take place. As Lilly says, it is
'''the first'''
**************************************************
>"...the first is when any of them is void or without course or motion
>which
>is said to be when one planet separating himself from another doth not
>apply to any other during the time that he tarryeth in that sign, and
>then
>he is said to have his course and motion void." p.36
**************************************************
Nothing to my mind could be Clearer than that statement. That statement
stands on its own. It is rock solid. It means very simply that if the
Moon or any planet or the Sun has another aspect to make during its stay
in a sign it is NOT void of course; while conversely after completing all
possible aspects in that sign then it IS void of course for the
remaining period of time in the sign. That is as clear as crystal. That
is what he wrote.

What he did not mention is that IF in rare situations (which I referred
you to regarding the Moon's most recent passage through Pisces) when
entering a sign the Moon can make no aspects during its entire stay in a
sign it is also in a void of course condition until it enters the NEXT
sign. This is just the manifestation of a very special and rare
geometrical condition.

As for slandering Lilly,... He grew up to a moderate education in the
classics; his father fell into great poverty; in his eighteenth year he
went to London and got a job attending to an elderly couple, his elderly
master died 6 years later, he then married his elderly master's elderly
wife, and in five years she was dead. At this point he was 31. With
20 Pounds in an annual annuity from the master's inheritance plus 1000
Pounds property inherited from the wife, his money plan was complete.
This is when he began to dabble in Astrology. Fourteen years later he
started publishing. Lilly was one of the first to place himself out on a
limb with predictions..the plague, the fire, etc. If he had
misunderstood the void of course moon he would not have succeeded. It is
clear from the material you quoted that he did have it right. That's the
only way that it works.

Morrison is another matter. I knew him quite well, he was my mentor and
we corresponded regularly and attended conferences together when we were
in the same city which was exceedingly rare.
Iit was plain in 1647 and it was plain in 1971 when Morrison dusted it
off. The only change he made to Lilly's concept was to add Uranus,
Neptune, and Pluto which pained the purist in him but he wanted it to
receive wide acceptance in order to revive interest in Horary which was
being smothered (along with everything else) by "Humanistic Astrology"
and its 'moralistic superiority'.

I hope that I have been able to adequately answer your questions
regarding my previous post.

Sincerely,



Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com


Thread: VOD
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:47:54 pdt

Rodger,--

Quoting:
Ms. Reeve's original statement (which was omitted):
"But surely we should note, as well as the word 'apply', the phrase

'during his being in that sign'? - which implies for the duration of
the
stay within said sign. This surely states the time period for
application of the usage of the word 'apply'. 'Apply' will still
mean when in orb, but 'during his being in that sign' gives the
parameters as being during that time span, not purely immediate, but
'during his being in that sign'.
Regards

Angela

--end of quote--

I am including this because you may have missed it. It is very clear.

Sincerely,

Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:14:51 -0400 (EDT) RG4invirgo@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 97-07-31 00:55:13 EDT, you write:
>
><< A planet not in aspect is an unaspected planet,-- it doesn't
>follow that
> it is void of course as well What constitutes an orb of application
>can
> be quite arbitrary depending upon the strengths and weaknesses of the
> planets in question.
> Semisextiles and Quincunx aspects are dissociate (inconjunct). They
> always fall within signs of opposite polarity; an example would be
>Moon
> in Aries-- dissociate signs being Pisces Taurus Virgo Scorpio. The
> weakness of the aspect combined with the opposite polarity is what
>makes
> the difference in my opinion. >>
>
>an unaspected planet IMHO is a void of course planet because the
>planet is
>void of aspect ergo void of Course! As far as my hint was concerned
>look on
>page 109. I was referring to no beholding inconjuncts. There are at
>least
>two of Lilly's charts where the moon is void of Course , however in
>both
>charts the Moon would be applying to an inconjunct or Quincunx,
>however these
>Quincunx are in signs non beholding. Lilly explains Quote from the
>Table
>"These are called Signs inconjunct, or such as if a Planet be in one
>of them,
>he cannot have any aspect to another in the sign underneath"!! If you
>Study
>his charts this little hint comes in handy for the Void of Course
>Moon.
>
>Sue Ward has worked very hard to get this point across about the Void
>of
>Course Moon, So I refer you to her work. Its a simple basic truth,
>Its very
>clear that Lilly used void of Course differently then we do today.
>The Point
>in trying to clear it up is so you can do your horary charts better!
>I hope
>someday we all benifit from Sue Wards excellent work on this subject.
>
>Humbly
>Rodger Grable
>
>


Thread: Versace's snakes
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:42:25 -0700

Mark Shulgasser wrote:
>
> I knew nothing of Versace's use of the Medusa as a personal emblem; but
> when I saw his bedroom illustrated in Vanity Fair, with snakes painted all
> over the headboard of his bed, I felt he toyed with negative energy and
> would end badly.
>
> End of premonition.

Dear Mark,
I did not know that Versace carried his Medusa "obsession" that far -
snakes on his headboard!! Thanks for the insight. DKR
Omigosh! I was just about to send this off when I realized that Versace
had, along with the Scorpion, the figure of Ophiuchus rising - Oph was
called Serpentarius (in ancient cuneiform inscriptions, Nutsirda "Prince
of the Serpent"!!! Ophiuchus is shown holding (struggling?) with a huge
serpent (which is now considered a separate constellation, Serpens) which
originally was depicted coiled around his body; I think you have just
given me the makings of an article! Thanks again! DKR


Thread: VOD
From: RG4invirgo@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:14:51 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-31 00:55:13 EDT, you write:

<< A planet not in aspect is an unaspected planet,-- it doesn't follow that
it is void of course as well What constitutes an orb of application can
be quite arbitrary depending upon the strengths and weaknesses of the
planets in question.
Semisextiles and Quincunx aspects are dissociate (inconjunct). They
always fall within signs of opposite polarity; an example would be Moon
in Aries-- dissociate signs being Pisces Taurus Virgo Scorpio. The
weakness of the aspect combined with the opposite polarity is what makes
the difference in my opinion. >>

an unaspected planet IMHO is a void of course planet because the planet is
void of aspect ergo void of Course! As far as my hint was concerned look on
page 109. I was referring to no beholding inconjuncts. There are at least
two of Lilly's charts where the moon is void of Course , however in both
charts the Moon would be applying to an inconjunct or Quincunx, however these
Quincunx are in signs non beholding. Lilly explains Quote from the Table
"These are called Signs inconjunct, or such as if a Planet be in one of them,
he cannot have any aspect to another in the sign underneath"!! If you Study
his charts this little hint comes in handy for the Void of Course Moon.

Sue Ward has worked very hard to get this point across about the Void of
Course Moon, So I refer you to her work. Its a simple basic truth, Its very
clear that Lilly used void of Course differently then we do today. The Point
in trying to clear it up is so you can do your horary charts better! I hope
someday we all benifit from Sue Wards excellent work on this subject.

Humbly
Rodger Grable


Thread: Orbs, Applications, & Circumstances
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:03:48 pdt

To RG4invirgo,

It would be very sweet of you to include your name so as to further
facilitate communication..however be that as it may, there is a whole
sign reference in your chosen identifier @aol...I hate to be nit picking
but by not including Ms. Angela Reeve's short, succinct, explanation
regarding application =as it pertains to the void of course discussion=
you run the risk of creating a false impression of the subject of the
thread and may unwittingly lead us off the road we are traveling along
together. I'm sure you didn't mean to risk that potentiality.

I think that a discussion of orbs in the general, specific, semantic, and
linguistic dimensions would be quite informative.


Quoting to restore the context:

On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:01:09 -0400 (EDT) RG4invirgo commented in this
manner regarding a message of MKJ to Ms. Angela Reeve:

>Have to disagree there Lilly didn't use whole sign at all. Not even
>sure if
>whole sign was a word the ancient used whole signs apply to our
>terminology,
>while there calculations were done with a process called Horary times!


What I said to Ms. Reeve:
><< You hit the nail on the head. We are definitely looking at a
>broader
> interpretation/application of the word "apply". This additional
> meaning may have roots back to the days when an orb was taken to >be a
> whole sign. >>

Ms. Reeve's original statement (which was omitted):
"But surely we should note, as well as the word 'apply', the phrase

'during his being in that sign'? - which implies for the duration of
the
stay within said sign. This surely states the time period for
application of the usage of the word 'apply'. 'Apply' will still
mean when in orb, but 'during his being in that sign' gives the
parameters as being during that time span, not purely immediate, but
'during his being in that sign'.
Regards

Angela


Angela, I quite agree.
The word orb had many varied meanings in the 1600's as well as now. So
as we focus our orbs (eye sockets) on an orb's (planet's) orb (domain of
influence) we can, perchance,open up the territory for discovery.


KING LEAR.
Let it be so,- thy truth, then, be thy dower:
1/1/104
For, by the sacred radiance of the sun,
1/1/105
The mysteries of Hecate, and the night;
1/1/106
By all the operation of the orbs
1/1/107
From whom we do exist, and cease to be;
1/1/108
Here I disclaim all my paternal care,
1/1/109
Propinquity and property of blood,
1/1/110
And as a stranger to my heart and me
1/1/111
Hold thee, from this, for ever.


In these lines from Hamlet 'orb' means the entire Earth:

But, as we often see, against some storm, 2/2/453
A silence in the heavens, the rack stand still,
2/2/454
The bold winds speechless, and the orb below
2/2/455
As hush as death


In this instance it means 'rounded'

PLAYER KING.
Full thirty times hath Phoebus' cart gone round
3/2/141
Neptune's salt wash and Tellus' orbed ground,
3/2/142
And thirty dozen moons with borrow'd sheen
3/2/143
About the world have times twelve thirties been,
3/2/144
Since love our hearts, and Hymen did our hands,
3/2/145
Unite commutual in most sacred bands.
3/2/146


>RG4invirgo again:

>Have to disagree there Lilly didn't use whole sign at all. Not even
>sure if
>whole sign was a word the ancient used whole signs apply to our
>terminology,
>while there calculations were done with a process called Horary times!

It was and is commonplace to refer to one's Moon being in the sign of the
Cancer, or "I was born, sir, when the Crab was ascending: all my affairs
go backwards." There are subtleties of meaning that require addressing.
We can't rightfully limit Lilly to merely one type of astrological
meaning for his words "apply" or "orb". There is hardly any subject in
astrology which has as much variation as this perennial discussion of
orbs. Much centers around the particular application (there's that word
again!) or question, and the time span involved. There are enormous
variations of meaning depending upon the nature of the information
sought. Take the term 'rising' for example. It can mean anything
occupying the clockwise arc from the Imum Coeli to the Medium Coeli or it
can mean proximity to the Eastern Horizon. And in this latter case it
can mean in the first house (about to rise) or it can mean in the twelfth
house (visibly rising). So many shades of meaning...

William Lilly was a modern man but just over his shoulder were the
middle ages. He was a product of the Renaissance revival of learning and
at the same time drank with gypsies. In Ptolemaic times the Earth was
perceived as residing within an orb termed the celestial sphere. The
Sun, Moon, and planets were orbs within orbs arranged according speed of
motion. So at any given time the visible orb of the Planet or Light was
at the same time connected to its spheric orb around the earth. The
distinctions between the points of light that were planets and the much
larger spheres which defined their speed and motion were blurred for
quite sometime. Copernicus changed much of the perceptions with his new
model of the Universe but the old traditional view took a long time to
perish. Language, as always, was caught in the middle. Lilly could talk
of orb in a general sense or in a specific sense. It is by its nature a
relative term and will undoubtedly remain so.

I'm an Aquarius Sun with the Sun at 23 degrees and Mars at 14 degrees.
I sense a profound difference of circumstances when the Moon enters
Aquarius. It has entered an orb of awareness for me. By the same
mechanism, but specifically focused, I can tell when the Moon conjuncts
Mars (event) and when it conjuncts my Sun (another event). When the Moon
leaves Aquarius, circumstances change again. My Moon is at 10 Scorpio,
when the transiting Moon passes from 30 Libra to 1 Scorpio there is a
definite change of circumstances. There is a unique moment (event) when
the Moon conjuncts the Moon and another (event) when my 27 Scorpio
Jupiter is conjuncted. The platic residual effects of Jupiter's late
degree influence make the cuspal transition to Sagittarius more difficult
to discern due to the over indulgence that the placement foretells !
When I awaken though I know that circumstances have once again changed.


Unique events arise out of circumstances. In my understanding, Void of
Course is a device used in horary to define two vectors of the same
event.

Planets provide that of an 'action' verb which is the aspect (Latin=
Angle) The implication is of two motive forces
intersecting.--(Expression, Communication, etc.)

Signs provide the 'state of being' verb, the circumstances (Latin= circle
positions). A 'stance' is a static condition with a particular
quality,----- (I know, I desire, etc.).

The differences of circumstances from one sign to the next are often very
pronounced. Virgo (analysis, discrimination) to Libra (balance,
equivocation). As the Sign changes a different set of planetary
connections through major aspects comes to the fore while the old one
becomes background. I think that the changing polarity form one sign to
the next is of great significance in the workings of these activations.

Sincerely,

Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com



Thread: The Astrologer's Apprentice
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 06:32:11 -0700 (PDT)

Hi folks,

Just to let you know that the fifth issue of The Astrologer's Apprentice is
now available. Full details and extracts are on the Apprentice's website:
http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk

"Please renew my subscription to the Apprentice...I think it's the most
readable astrology magazine around, and the funniest - not many of them get
me reading extracts to my non-astrologer husband." - Liz Rooke, Oxford.

Contents of this issue include:

The William Hill Astrology Awards: Bursaries for astrologers - and how to
claim them.
The Land of the Rising Moon:We investigate the chart for Japan.
Neptune - The Short Version: Life too short for Liz Greene's? The
Apprentice tells you all you need to know.
The Planetary Glyphs: The significance of these familiar symbols.
Zulu! The eclipse of empire, as Zulus massacre a British army. We find
the astrological reasons why.
The Most Beautiful Music: How cultural changes have formed the astrology we
use today.
Labour Day: As the dust settles, how did Tony Blair pull it off?
Shakespeare's Guide to Astrology
Is My TV Repairable? Where's My Shootin' Irons? - horaries
The Theorem of the Bride: The inner meaning of number at the heart of
astrology.
Neptunia Replies: Our sensitive seer sorts out those intimate little
problems of technique.

You've not read anything quite like The Astrologer's Apprentice.

Regards to all,

John Frawley


The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk




Thread: Book on Moon VOC
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 11:24:49 +0100

>In a message dated 97-07-30 20:32:28 EDT, you write:
>
><< a book specifically about Moon VOC but I deleted the
> e-mail by accident. Does anyone remember the title/author/publisher?
> >>
>
>The Author is Maurice McCann.
>I believe it is available from Deborah at:
>Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com (Deborah Houlding)
>
>Tony
>


Maurice's e-mail address as given on the list was:

McMcann@aol.com


Pat



Thread: Pregnancy
From: Hideaki Kokubu <kokubu@est.co.jp> Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:59:28 +0900

Hello

None of my clients hasn't asked about daughter's pregnancy, but a client
once asked me whether his girlfriend was pregnant. I remember Venus
conjuncted Mars in Virgo in the 5th, and I judged the girlfriend was
pregnant - it proved correct.

Regards,

Hideaki


Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: RG4invirgo@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 00:01:09 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-30 23:54:41 EDT, you write:

<< You hit the nail on the head. We are definitely looking at a broader
interpretation/application of the word "apply". This additional
meaning may have roots back to the days when an orb was taken to be a
whole sign. >>
Have to disagree there Lilly didn't use whole sign at all. Not even sure if
whole sign was a word the ancient used whole signs apply to our terminology,
while there calculations were done with a process called Horary times!


Thread: Versace/Medusa
From: "Diana K. Rosenberg" <ye-stars@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:56:13 -0700

Re: Versace, his logo of Medusa, and his murder:

As a fixed star person, I worked on the Algol angle on Versace's natal
chart for a bit, but with little result; you can put fixed stars on a
chart and solar arc them, and when they hit a planet or angle there will
be some action related to that star, so I put Algol (25Tau25 at his
birth) on Versace's chart and arced it 51 degrees, 33 mins to date of
death: it goes to 16Can58; his Miami Beach Antivertex is 16Can30. Then I
remembered that there is an asteroid Medusa, and I looked it up in Nona
Press' book (New Insights into Astrology): according to the book,
Asteroid 149 Medusa's Nodes are 9 Virgo-Pisces, exactly square Versace's
Sun! So I called Nona and she calculated (using CCRS) the position of the
asteroid at his birth; it came out at 18Gem23rx in his 7th, opposite
natal Mars, cnj natal Uranus, sq natal MC. It culminates on his relocated
Miami Beach chart where the MC is 17Gem39 (& sqs the MB 17Vir56 Asc). As
for the stars, that 8th house Saturn Pluto combo is deadly, dangerous and
known for assassinations, murders & violent deaths, as well as head
injuries (Saturn is at South Asellus, Delta Cancri; Pluto at Acubens,
Alpha Cancri); the reloc to Miami Beach makes Mars ruler of the local
8th; it comes out on the IC, opp Asteroid Medusa at the MC, & sqs Asc;
it's at Masym, Lambda Herculis (which anciently was not Hercules but
"Eidolon" - Phantom), and Black Hole V821 Arae. From the fixed star
positions on his chart I would say that Versace was probably inclined
sexually to S & M, tho whether this had anything to do with his murder is
not certain. I'd better stop here - this is getting to be a book! Best
wishes, DKR


Thread: Book on Moon VOC
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:29:16 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-30 20:32:28 EDT, you write:

<< a book specifically about Moon VOC but I deleted the
e-mail by accident. Does anyone remember the title/author/publisher?
>>

The Author is Maurice McCann.
I believe it is available from Deborah at:
Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com (Deborah Houlding)

Tony


Thread: Pregnancy
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:26:27 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-30 20:30:37 EDT, you write:

<< When the question in a Horary is: "Is my daughter pregnant?" >>

I would turn the chart. The 5th is the daughter and the 5th of the 5th is
her pregnancy.

Tony


Thread: Hair designer sheers......lost? REPOST?
From: Vyri@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:20:35 -0400 (EDT)

>Dear Friends in Astrology, I have been learning and lurking, and lurkng and
learning
>for some time now in the shadows, and haven't really introduced myself
to the members
>as yet, I really do love this forum, and have greatly benefited
from it these
>last 4 months. I am hoping to inlist the members help with a horary question
I've experienced some
> confusion in delineating, so to those interested..........I had been on
vacation for awhile, and
>made the decision not to take along my expensive designer haircutting
shears, I had thought
> they would be safe in my home as I was to have it watched by my sisters
live-in boyfriend,
>who also had my house key at this time, but on returning home could not find
my shears.
>(stolen or misplaced?) There were a number of odd incidents that had
happened whilst I
> was away also. Among them my daughter's Salamandors kept in an aquarium
outside had
>been poisoned by spray paint, and a small cabinet that I had recently
painted was missing. My
> sisters friend is a Cancer man, 50ish, and I believe is quite eccentric. I
did not wish to
>believe that he had taken them therefore asked the question,"Where are my
scissors?"
>Underlying I have fearful subconscious thoughts about this man, we have not
always been
> on the best of terms, and I hold concerns involving his friends and
relatives around my
>neighborhood, if they may be involved in some type of vengeance wrought upon
my head.
> I have confronted him about the shears and his answer is a laughing
disbelief that I would even think he would do such a thing. Any light the
members might shed upon
> this figure would be appreciated.
As for
>my experience in Horary, and traditional Astrology, I have been involved
with the Rosicrucian
>Order Amorc, for the last 30 years, learning......lurking, and well, you get
the picture,
>I am a self educated student of Astrology, but had the great benefit of my
Grandmother's
>influence and her personal associations with some of the best well known
Astrologers and teachings around.
>The time of the question; 8:35pm/DST; July 18th, l997. Zone and date are:
Beaverton, Oregon
>/123W0l'/45N31'. I found Beaverton's Longitude and Lattitude at the Library.
I have Capricorn rising
>for this chart, which has Nebulous Neptune in the first, and Saturn (In
Aries in its Fall but
>in mutual reception with Mars in Libra in the 8th) conjunct the 3rd Cusp.
(Which I find
>accurately describes my state of mind.) Again thanks for any help........I'm
still looking
>but am more doubtful than ever about finding them....(have almost given up,
along with turning
>my house topsy-turvy in trying to find them.) Yours in Learning V Y R I
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: jewellstar@earthlink.net (Jewell Starsinger)
Reply-to: jewellstar@earthlink.net
To: Vyri@aol.com
Date: 97-07-30 06:40:56 EDT

Vyri@aol.com wrote:
>
> Dear Friend in Astrology, I haven't as yet heard from anyone in return
> about a question I submitted. I'm wondering, did I supply some wrong data
or
> something?
>
> Dear Vyri,
I apologize for leading you on. I calculated a chart and put in a file
with other stuff about your case. I had hope to follow along with the
dialog, as I am a rank beginner in horary. My purpose in contacting
you for the specific info was simply to follow the discussion.
I am quite a good spiritual astrologer, but that ability doesn't hold
water with these guys.
I suggest you post again. I have backed away a bit since I have a
deadline I want to meet.
Sincerely,
Jewell Starsinger
jewellstar@earthlink.net



Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:14:54 pdt


Angela

You hit the nail on the head. We are definitely looking at a broader
interpretation/application of the word "apply". This additional
meaning may have roots back to the days when an orb was taken to be a
whole sign.

On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:45:55 EDT "Angela Reeve
UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> writes:
>
>But surely we should note, as well as the word 'apply', the phrase

>'during his being in that sign'? - which implies for the duration of
>the
>stay within said sign. This surely states the time period for
>application of
>the usage of the word 'apply'. 'Apply' will still mean when in orb,
>but
>'during his being in that sign' gives the parameters as being during
>that
>time span, not purely immediate, but 'during his being in that sign'.
>
>
>Regards
>
>
>Angela

Sincerely,

Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com


Thread: VOD
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 16:04:53 pdt



On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:53:20 -0400 (EDT) RG4invirgo@aol.com writes:

>The whole point of VOC is a planet is void if it is not APPLYING to
>another
>planet regardless of end of sign.

I don't where this idea of ignoring the circumstances (sign) of an
interaction (aspect) originated. It's not Lilly's notion.
According to Lilly, "All manner of matters
go hardly on, unless the principal significators are very strong,
when
the Moon is void of course. Yet the Moon performs somewhat when
void of course in Taurus, Cancer, Sagittarius or Pisces".


> The Moon or mercury or Jupiter any
>planet
>at 29 degrees if that planet is applying to another planet and is
>still
>applying to another planet even after the planet changes signs the
>planet is
>not Void. However a planet can be void anywhere in any sign if it is
>not
>making a applying aspect!

"void" as you are using it and void of course are two different concepts.
Void of Course when referring to Mutual aspects is a planet which forms
no complete (partile) aspect before leaving the Sign it was posited in at
the time the figure was erected.


> If you want proof examine every Chart Lilly
>says
>the Moon is Void of Course in. A helpful hint pay attention to
>inconjucts or
>as Lilly says a planet in these signs can make no aspect for they are
>inconjunct. A Planet not in aspect is a planet or Moon Void!

A planet not in aspect is an unaspected planet,-- it doesn't follow that
it is void of course as well What constitutes an orb of application can
be quite arbitrary depending upon the strengths and weaknesses of the
planets in question.
Semisextiles and Quincunx aspects are dissociate (inconjunct). They
always fall within signs of opposite polarity; an example would be Moon
in Aries-- dissociate signs being Pisces Taurus Virgo Scorpio. The
weakness of the aspect combined with the opposite polarity is what makes
the difference in my opinion.

Respectfully,


Michael Jordan

siderealm@juno.com




Thread: VOD
From: RG4invirgo@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:53:20 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-30 02:45:04 EDT, you write:

<< Mercury
is VOC if Mercury makes no aspect to another planet prior to leaving his
sign. >>
The whole point of VOC is a planet is void if it is not APPLYING to another
planet regardless of end of sign. The Moon or mercury or Jupiter any planet
at 29 degrees if that planet is applying to another planet and is still
appying to another planet even after the planet changes signs the planet is
not Void. However a planet can be void anywhere in any sign if it is not
making a applying aspect! If you want proof examine every Chart Lilly says
the Moon is Void of Course in. A helpful hint pay attention to inconjucts or
as Lilly says a planet in these signs can make no aspect for they are
inconjunct. A Planet not in aspect is a planet or Moon Void!


Thread: Void of Course Moon Redux
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:48:47 pdt



On Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:00:56 Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> writes:
>
>At 20:07 28/7/1997 pdt, Michael wrote:
>>Deb,
>>
>>It has always seemed to me that ol' Bill wasn't too sure about the
>Void of
>>Course Moon...his statements are ambiguous..

>I'm not sure what you mean by ambiguity, he is explicit so far as I
>can see.

According to Lilly, "All manner of matters
go hardly on, unless the principal significators are very strong,
when
the Moon is void of course. Yet the Moon performs somewhat when
void of course in Taurus, Cancer, Sagittarius or Pisces".

Sue, this statement opens up the door.


>The Moon is void of course
>when it does not apply to another.

This is another source of ambiguity for many students due to the practice
of using a very large orb for the Moon's application which can extend
rays into the next sign rendering the definition flaccid.

>Lilly's definition is almost identical to that of Dariot, he didn't
>dream it up.

Sue, what is Dariots' definition and in what manner does it differ from
Lilly's?

> Yes indeed, he did make mistakes, but I think the most common
>error
>is made by us by assuming that because we don't understand it it must
>be
>rubbish, wrong or guesswork.

My take is that he hedged V.O.C.M. with parallels and Fixed Stars via
Combustia because either he wasn't sure or because he had no time to
analyse data due to the uncertainties surrounding the Scottish Revolt,
Two civil wars, the Commonwealth, the expulsion of the Parliament,
Cromwell, etc. After the Restoration he was on the outs with Charles II
due to his politics which were generally against the monarchy throughout
his life. As they say, he "lived in interesting times".

"Even from his own account of himself, however, it is evident that he did
not trust implicitly to the indications given by the aspects of the
heavens, but kept his eyes and ears open for any indications which might
make his predictions safe."--Encyclopedia Britannica, 1947 edition.

> The evidence does not support the idea
>that he
>made a mistake with void of course. (As a matter of fact, the basis of
>the
>void condition is 'application' or rather lack of it. Application only
>operates when planets are within orb of aspect).

Orbs can be arbitrary and the interpretations by some of these phrases is
to allow an orb to extend into the next sign. This creates a great deal
of ambiguity when 'application' is taken to be the condition within orb
of aspect only. Unless I am misunderstanding you, Sue, by your
definition it is conceivable that if the Moon was in the first degree of
a sign and Saturn was in the twenty-ninth degree of the same sign and the
Sun and the other four planets were in the preceeding sign the; Moon
would not be applying to the conjunction of Saturn, would not be Void of
Course, and would merely be unaspected. Would you attempt to judge a
chart in this condition?

What happens with the reverse condition when the Sun and the other four
are in the same sign as the Moon with the Moon at the end of the sign at
29 degrees and Saturn within the first decanate of the following sign.
Is the Moon in this case applying to Saturn and therefore not void of
course even though it has yet to change signs?

There is too much wiggle room in this for me to feel comfortable, and my
take is that Mr. Lilly, being the astrologer that he was, was not
comfortable in conferring judgement based upon it alone, but instead took
other factors into account because he had not completely made up his mind
regarding his definition of the Void of Course Moon.

The modern definition came, I believe, 300 years later with the work of
Al H. Morrison. He was troubled with the ambiguities of what appeared to
him an unfinished thought on the part of Lilly. One giant stood on the
shoulders of another giant and produced the formula which works
concretely.

After the Moon makes its last partile Ptolemaic aspect in a sign it
is Void of Course until it enters a sign in which it can make a partile
Ptolemaic aspect. (this is usually, but not always, the next sign it
enters).

The only wiggle room I would allow in this definition is that the Moon's
position is generally measured from its center and since the apparent
radius of the disk as seen from the sky is in the neighborhood of 15
minutes of arc, the edge of the disk enters the sign before the center
does. For apparent geocentric motion of 12 degrees per day this would be
30 minutes of time prior to the center entering the sign. If by similar
fine tuning we were to consider the Moon leaving an aspect to the Sun we
would have to take into account the radius of the Sun, the radius of the
Moon, the speed of the Sun and the speed of the Moon to determine when
true separation had occurred and the aspect (interaction) was over. This
takes about 65 minutes for the coming New Moon conjunction the first week
of August. It is my feeling that similar considerations with the
planets would be in order in fine tuning judgements containing these
special conditions.

Sincerely,

Michael Jordan

siderealm@juno.com


Thread: Pregnancy
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:18:51 -0400

At 07:08 AM 7/29/97, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>When the question in a Horary is: "Is my daughter pregnant?". What are your
>feelings about turning the chart? Do you use the 5th as the Asc and
>therefore look to the Lord of the 5th as the Asc Lord and the 9th ruler as
>the 5th? Or do you leave the chart as it stands?
>
>Love from over here,
>Miriam
>--

Since this is a question about someone other than the querent, I would turn
the chart.

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Pregnancy
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:32:34 -0700


Dear Miriam,

I think we're best to turn the chart as little as possible - but here we
simply must. Looking just at the 5th we're still involving ourselves with
the querent's fertility rather than the daughter's, though the general
nature of the 5th house will certainly be worth a thorough look.

Similarly illness - Lilly is quite specific that 6th, 8th & 12th should all
be read from the radical chart; but if I'm asking about my dog's illness, I
must turn the chart to find a different house for the dog's good-health
(her 1st) & her ill-health (her 6th).


It also makes sense - &, more importantly, works - if we're turning the
chart, to calculate the relevant Arabic parts from the turned Asc.

Best regards, John Frawley

The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk




Thread: Book on Moon VOC
From: nu@tky0.attnet.or.jp (Neil Urquhart) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:21:25 +0900 (JST)

Dear Fellow Willies;)

Someone mentioned a book specifically about Moon VOC but I deleted the
e-mail by accident. Does anyone remember the title/author/publisher?

Thanks in advance,

Neil



Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:45:55 EDT


But surely we should note, as well as the word 'apply', the phrase
'during his being in that sign'? - which implies for the duration of the
stay within said sign. This surely states the time period for application of
the usage of the word 'apply'. 'Apply' will still mean when in orb, but
'during his being in that sign' gives the parameters as being during that
time span, not purely immediate, but 'during his being in that sign'.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Pregnancy
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 05:32:24 EDT


Hi Miriam,

As I have learnt, yes, you would turn the chart and use the fifth house for
your daughter's asc, and then fifth from fifth (9th) for the baby.

Best of luck

Angela



Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: bob Larson <blarson@erols.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 22:45:21 -0400

>Just as a generalization, I would opine that Mercury rising before the Sun
>is a person who looks before he leaps.

...I've seen that, & read it..but,

Conversely, Mercury rising after the
>Sun is a person who leaps before he looks.

...not quite so necessarily: might try to look, but operates with
hindsight (20/20 or otherwise). I be one, & livin' it so (hindsight not
all that great either)

bobL


Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:05:13

At 05:36 28/7/1997 EDT, Angela wrote:
>Hi Tony,

>
>I have always had trouble with the perception of what Lilly was saying re

>VOC Moon. How do you interpret his words ".... nor doth forthwith during
his
>being in that sign apply to any other ....."? There is also another quote

>which refers directly to the Moon, and includes the word
'notwithstanding',
>but unfortunately I do not have my copy of CA with me to give it full

>reference, however, it basically appears to say that the Moon is not VOC
if
>she makes aspects during her stay within her current sign, not necessarily


Note the word 'apply' in the quote. That is the crux. He is not saying
'makes aspects', he is saying 'apply'. It is completely different because
the former implies a simple movement towards, whereas the latter requires
orbs to be in contact.

>that she is in orb. I accept that is my perception of Lilly's use of the

>English language, but I would be interested to learn your views.


Apply means to be within orbs and moving towards major aspect.

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course


Thread: Void of Course Moon Redux
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:00:56


At 20:07 28/7/1997 pdt, Michael wrote:
>Deb,
>
>It has always seemd to me that ol' Bill wasn't too sure about the Void of
>Course Moon...his statements are ambiguous...reasoning prior to his
>publishing of Christian Astrology and reasoning combined with research
>since then has led many of us to conclude that:

I'm not sure what you mean by ambiguity, he is explicit so far as I can
see. The wrangling that goes on about the famous definition on page 112 of
CA, is easily settled after investigating his chart examples.

>After the Moon makes its last partile Ptolemaic aspect in a sign it is
>Void of Course until it enters a sign in which it can make a partile
>Ptolemaic aspect.

I think this is what Lilly says isn't it? The Moon is void of course when
it does not apply to another.

>I think it behooves us all when studying to remember that Lilly proofread
>his own work most of the time and made mistakes just like all human
>beings do. Further we can only guess at how much mystical insight came
>into play which was not quantifiable scientifically but which
>nevertheless contributed to the Lilly legacy...shall we say, interpretive
>art?

Lilly's definition is almost identical to that of Dariot, he didn't dream
it up. Yes indeed, he did make mistakes, but I think the most common error
is made by us by assuming that because we don't understand it it must be
rubbish, wrong or guesswork. The evidence does not support the idea that he
made a mistake with void of course. (As a matter of fact, the basis of the
void condition is 'application' or rather lack of it. Application only
operates when planets are within orb of aspect).

As an aside, I agree with Tony that 'forthwith' means 'immediately', that
is, the next thing it does.

I wonder what our resident language expert makes of the infamous sentence?
Jon?

Sincerely

Sue


sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course


Thread: Astrologist/Astrologism
From: AstroMaggi@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:52:23 -0400 (EDT)

Pat - was just teasing J. F. with this and hope I didn't confuse anyone. Have
you subscribed to his new publication, The Astrologer's Apprentice yet? It
contains excellent technical information and some delightful humor. My best
guess is that astrologist was used was a euphemism for astrologer.
Astrologism might be what traditionalists call an aphorism, like those on
pages 298 - 302 of CA.

Maggie


Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:28:10 -0400

At 01:47 AM 7/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>This probably isn't a traditional source, but
>Message From The Stars By Heindel for purposes of determining the level
>of intelligence uses Mercury as a morning riser.

Just as a generalization, I would opine that Mercury rising before the Sun
is a person who looks before he leaps. Conversely, Mercury rising after the
Sun is a person who leaps before he looks. Other considerations aside (as
in the rest of the horoscope), I started my young life as a "leaper before
looker" and have the Mars in Capricorn scars on my knees to prove it. :)

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: VOD
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:11:40 -0400

At 05:25 AM 7/28/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Hi Kent,

>I would have thought that as Mercury is aspected before leaving his
current
>sign, that means he is not VOC. It will be interesting to hear the
opinions
>of others on the list.

>
>Angela

Opinion:

It would mean that the Moon is not VOC as that is the only planet which can
make an aspect to Mercury. A further consideration is that the Moon may be
translating light from Mercury to another planet. In either case, Mercury
is VOC if Mercury makes no aspect to another planet prior to leaving his
sign. The VOC consideration is a planet making an aspect to another planet,
not receiving an aspect from a planet. E. g., prior to the discovery of
Uranus, Saturn would always be VOC, since it could never make an aspect to
another planet.


Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: JosephC637@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:24:43 -0400 (EDT)

Hi Deb -
"Spearbearing" is a very ambiguous term in the Greek tradition. Ptolemy's
version seems a bit simpler, simply planets accompanying a luminary in the
sky, as if in procession. (I confess every time I think of spearbearing I
think of the intro. to one of the sections of the old "Rocky and Bullwinkle"
show). Spearbearing is relevant to people of rank and glory, because of the
appearance in the sky of a procession.
If you'd like some confusion, I suggest a chapter in Antiochus.
Joseph


Thread: Pregnancy
From: Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:08:12

Hi all,

When the question in a Horary is: "Is my daughter pregnant?". What are your
feelings about turning the chart? Do you use the 5th as the Asc and
therefore look to the Lord of the 5th as the Asc Lord and the 9th ruler as
the 5th? Or do you leave the chart as it stands?

Love from over here,
Miriam
--
"We stood at last beyond the Gold Gate. Masters of Time and Fate, and knew
the song that Sun and Stars were singing."
Miriam Laister - THE COSMIC EXPERIENCE astrology newsletter - GEMINI TAPES
astrology lectures on tape.


Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 05:18:51 +0000

At 09:32 PM 7/28/97 +0000, Deborah Houlding wrote:
>Message text written by "Carol A. Wiggers"
>>The "scout planet" is the oriental
>>spearbearer of the Sun<
>
>Oooh Joseph - you've started with that 'spearbearing' thing.
>
>Tell me, what's the difference between a 'spearbearer' and a planet making
>a common old aspect?
>
>Fondly,
>Deb

Drama! Deb. :) Sort of makes it exciting to imagine all these dramatic
figures coming to life and acting out our charts. :)
(Though basically I agree with you...)

Love,

Julienne
Owner: CHA*OS Astrology List



Thread: FW:Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 23:10:50 -0400 (EDT)
Status: U

In a message dated 97-07-28 16:48:34 EDT, you write:

<< what Lilly was saying re
VOC Moon. How do you interpret his words ".... nor doth forthwith during
his
being in that sign apply to any other ....."? There is also another quote

which refers directly to the Moon, and includes the word 'notwithstanding',

but unfortunately I do not have my copy of CA with me to give it full

reference, however, it basically appears to say that the Moon is not VOC if

she makes aspects during her stay within her current sign, not necessarily

that she is in orb. >>

Angela,

Judging from Lilly's examples, he allows the Moon to be void in the middle of
a sign when she is not within orb of an aspect and then go on to leave the
void state once within orb later in the sign. See the Presbytery chart for a
good example. From Lilly's examples, I assume that by "forthwith" he means
"immediately at the time of the question" while the Moon is in the same sign
as at the time of the question.

Tony


Thread: FW:Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just
From: bob Larson <blarson@erols.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:22:39 -0400
Status: U

off the top of my head, & not having studied Lilly yet, but I think Zain
agreed & used hi as a ref on the subject, that VOC is the period between
last major aspect & change of signs? I'me new to this list & this thread,
& don't mean to be professing, but rather fishing for agreement or
correction.....

bobL

At 05:36 AM 7/28/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Hi Tony,

>
>I have always had trouble with the perception of what Lilly was saying re

>VOC Moon. How do you interpret his words ".... nor doth forthwith during
his
>being in that sign apply to any other ....."? There is also another quote

>which refers directly to the Moon, and includes the word
'notwithstanding',
>but unfortunately I do not have my copy of CA with me to give it full

>reference, however, it basically appears to say that the Moon is not VOC
if
>she makes aspects during her stay within her current sign, not necessarily

>that she is in orb. I accept that is my perception of Lilly's use of the

>English language, but I would be interested to learn your views.

>
>Regards

>
>Angela

>
>
>
>


Thread: Scout planet/Planet in oriental appearance
From: bob Larson <blarson@erols.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:19:45 -0400
Status: U

I'm pretty darn sure that as long as you're accurately quoting excerpts, &
giving the source, you're ok. since I happen to have the book on my desk,
and appreciate the cue to reread that page, her it is at my risk (buy th
book-it's a good one):

Each person has been given special skills and abilities to help him fulfill
himself as an individual and as a purposeful member of society. Through
the technique of directive utilization {huh? -bl], we are able to recognize
these personal gifts and understand how they may be utilized and developed.

The term "Planet of Oriental Appearance" was coined to designate the planet
crossing the eastern horizon immediately before the Sun on any given day.
The POA at the time of our birth serves tas the significator of practical
direction. This planet will act as the agent of the personality within the
field of practical, everyday affairs and life experiences. It provides the
individual with a method and a direction of action to assist him in the
handling of the immediate demands of life.

The POA also reveals the particular things one should be good at: the areas
of activity and experience that should provide the person with the richest
harvest for his efforts. It represents how one's unique skills and
faculties can be put to their best possible use and how one may fulfill his
potentiality for practical and productive activity.

The significator of practical direction at the time of birth is the planet
in the birth-chart immediately preceding the Sun in a clockwise
direction-the planet immediately preceding the Sun in the zodiac. For
instance, if the Sun occupied the thirteenth degree of Scorpio on the day
of my birth while Neptune occupied the twelfth degree of Libra, Neptune
would be my orienatl-appearing planet if no other planet is found between
the twelfth degree of Libra and the thirteenth degree of Scorpio.

then he goes on with a paragraph for each planet as practical director, &
that was fun typing, but enough.

bobL

At 10:20 AM 7/28/97 +-200, you wrote:
>In the Handbook for the Humanistic Astrologer from Michael R. Meyer
(Anchor Books 1974, p 228) there is a section on the so called planet of
oriental appearance. As this is not traditional horary related, I suggest
those who want to have the quote from t
>his book, to mail me privately. Those who want this quote can get it on
their own email address.
>
>[If I am violating any copyright rights with this, will anyone please tell
me as I am not aware if this is a proper procedure]
>
>Manon Richard
>carmen@dds.nl
>
>
>


Thread: Astrologist/Astrologism
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:09:47 +0100
Status: U

>John - I am shocked that you don't know this one. An astrologist is an
>astrologer who gets the general gist of astrology while avoiding it's drift.
>An astrologism is an insightful tidbit of astro-philosophy on the order of a
>John Frawlyism but not as clever.
>
>Maggie
>


I'm sorry, Maggie - will you run that one by me, again???

Pat.



Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:32:16 -0400

Message text written by DENIS LABOURE
>But you are too optimistic, Deborah. A french group, with 300 members,
the "Fédération des astrologues francophones", tries to set the
interdiction of predictive and horary astrology. In all their documents,
it is forbidden to mention "predictive" or "horary". They want the
practice of couseling be reserved to these astrologers who have a degree
in psychology.

Stop this disastrous debate.
Go ahead. Thanks a lot.
Denis.
<

-- I know, its not all there yet, and when I say a lot more, that just goes
to show how bad it has been, and in some places it still is, but there has
been an improvement. The only solution is not to bother argue about it,
but to just press on with dignity -- and anyone who knows me will know how
easily I put those words into practise.

You should all just be more like me: quiet and dignified and perfect.

With graceful tolerance of your imperfections.

Deborah


Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:32:05 -0400

Message text written by "Carol A. Wiggers"
>The "scout planet" is the oriental
>spearbearer of the Sun<

Oooh Joseph - you've started with that 'spearbearing' thing.

Tell me, what's the difference between a 'spearbearer' and a planet making
a common old aspect?

Fondly,
Deb


Thread: FW:Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:32:10 -0400

Message text written by "Carol A. Wiggers"
>There is also another quote
which refers directly to the Moon, and includes the word 'notwithstanding',

but unfortunately I do not have my copy of CA with me to give it full

reference, however, it basically appears to say that the Moon is not VOC if

she makes aspects during her stay within her current sign, not necessarily

that she is in orb.<

That is the way that I read it but I know that others disagree and they may
be right. Then again I might be.

Any kind of interpretatation is an art.

And that's all I have to say on the Void of Course Moon

Deb


Thread: Void of Course Moon Redux
From: siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 20:07:57 pdt
Status: U

Deb,

It has always seemd to me that ol' Bill wasn't too sure about the Void of
Course Moon...his statements are ambiguous...reasoning prior to his
publishing of Christian Astrology and reasoning combined with research
since then has led many of us to conclude that:

After the Moon makes its last partile Ptolemaic aspect in a sign it is
Void of Course until it enters a sign in which it can make a partile
Ptolemaic aspect.

Last week for example when the Moon made its last aspect in Aquarius it
was void of course the whole time it was in Pisces because there were no
partile Ptolemaic aspects that it could make. This was an unusually long
V.O.C.M. period and it was marked with many odd but typical VOCM events
regarding Cunnanan, Cosby, O'Conner.

I think it behooves us all when studying to remember that Lilly proofread
his own work most of the time and made mistakes just like all human
beings do. Further we can only guess at how much mystical insight came
into play which was not quantifiable scientifically but which
nevertheless contributed to the Lilly legacy...shall we say, interpretive
art?

Love to you,

Michael Jordan
siderealm@juno.com

On Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:32:10 -0400 Deborah Houlding
<Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com> writes:
>Message text written by "Carol A. Wiggers"
>>There is also another quote
>which refers directly to the Moon, and includes the word
>'notwithstanding',
>
>but unfortunately I do not have my copy of CA with me to give it full
>
>
>reference, however, it basically appears to say that the Moon is not
>VOC if
>
>she makes aspects during her stay within her current sign, not
>necessarily
>
>that she is in orb.<
>
>That is the way that I read it but I know that others disagree and
>they may
>be right. Then again I might be.
>
>Any kind of interpretatation is an art.
>
>And that's all I have to say on the Void of Course Moon
>
>Deb
>
>


Thread: Astrologist/Astrologism
From: AstroMaggi@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:15:14 -0400 (EDT)

John - I am shocked that you don't know this one. An astrologist is an
astrologer who gets the general gist of astrology while avoiding it's drift.
An astrologism is an insightful tidbit of astro-philosophy on the order of a
John Frawlyism but not as clever.

Maggie


Thread: Scout planet/Planet in oriental appearance
From: Manon Richard <carmen@dds.nl> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:20:46 +-200

In the Handbook for the Humanistic Astrologer from Michael R. Meyer (Anchor Books 1974, p 228) there is a section on the so called planet of oriental appearance. As this is not traditional horary related, I suggest those who want to have the quote from this book, to mail me privately. Those who want this quote can get it on their own email address.

[If I am violating any copyright rights with this, will anyone please tell me as I am not aware if this is a proper procedure]

Manon Richard
carmen@dds.nl


Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 06:08:01 EDT


Thanks, Joseph, very interesting; it is good to know that there may be a
traditional aspect to this after all.

Regards

Angela



Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:47:58 -0400 (EDT)
Status: U


This probably isn't a traditional source, but
Message From The Stars By Heindel for purposes of determining the level
of intelligence uses Mercury as a morning riser.
//eoj

jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.



Thread: FW:Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Chan
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:36:31 EDT

Hi Tony,

I have always had trouble with the perception of what Lilly was saying re
VOC Moon. How do you interpret his words ".... nor doth forthwith during his
being in that sign apply to any other ....."? There is also another quote
which refers directly to the Moon, and includes the word 'notwithstanding',
but unfortunately I do not have my copy of CA with me to give it full
reference, however, it basically appears to say that the Moon is not VOC if
she makes aspects during her stay within her current sign, not necessarily
that she is in orb. I accept that is my perception of Lilly's use of the
English language, but I would be interested to learn your views.

Regards

Angela



Thread: VOD
From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <angy@e-mail.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:25:39 EDT

Hi Kent,
I would have thought that as Mercury is aspected before leaving his current
sign, that means he is not VOC. It will be interesting to hear the opinions
of others on the list.

Angela



Thread: Re Scout Planet &c
From: harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris) Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 01:34:15 +0100
Status: U

>Can someone please explain to me exactly what is an Astrologist? If there
>is such a thing as Astrologism, I might like to try it.
>
>Many thanks, John Frawley
>
>The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
>Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk
>
>
>



John,

I first noticed this peculiarity in writings by people - possibly fringe
"psychologistst" - from early this century. It seems to be a confusion of
psychologist with astrologer. Probably means the same as astrologer,
though. What's in a name, etc. ...? Others may know more on this, however
.....

Love,

Pat.



Thread: Subscribe
From: Bonnyqu@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 20:09:44 -0400 (EDT)
Status: U

Subscribe Bonnyqu@aol.com


Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: Leviam@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:57:12 -0400 (EDT)
Status: U

Dear Joseph,

This is highly interesting, but what if the oriental spearbearer (receiving
an applying sextile from the Moon) and the Midheaven planet are in mutual
reception, but in averse signs?

Thank you,
Levia Shanken

>Looking for a specific significator of one's
>praxis, "it is needful to look both for the planet that has made its morning
>appearance before the sun, and that which is at Midheaven, particularly when
>it occupies the application of the Moon." The "scout planet" is the oriental
>spearbearer of the Sun, which makes sense for questions of career. However,
>this is only one of the possibilities for finding a "praxis" planet, but if
>you have the same planet that is also in the tenth house or the Moon's next
>application, you have a rather trustworthy determination on your hands.

>Joseph Crane


Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and my Two Sense.....
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:13:11 BST
Status: U



>I'm more interested in UNIVERSALISM!! You mean you have no limitations?, such are attributes of divinity are they not? How honoured we should all be to read this ?material
>
>By Sense, do you mean Cents', as in "two cents' worth"? One of the values of tradition (in language as in astrology) is that it accumulates over time a body of shared understandings which form the basis of common communication between individuals. Unlimited individuals (if that's not an oxymoron) probably wouldn't be able to communicate with anyone, but then they probably wouldn't need to!
>
>cheers
>Jon
>
>
>>AMBurtell@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> First and foremost, PLEASE DEFINE "TRADITIONAL" in the field of Astrology. I
>>> will follow the rules and observe silently, but truly need to know what it
>>> means to be a "traditionalist" in this field.
>>>
>>> I am a UNIVERSALIST. I just study something and if I feel it fits in with my
>>> beliefs and is of use, I use it. I NEVER limit myself. If I limit myself in
>>> any way I feel as if I'm not being as much of service as I could be (in any
>>> field or endeavor I take). This is me. Each person can follow any belief
>>> system they wish, that's their choice. However, that doesn't stop me from
>>> believing the way I believe or reading or studying something that is of
>>> interest to me.
>>Easy. The purpose of this board was as a discussion group for
>>astrological ideas that pre-date 1700, or with ways to use these
>>
>
>




Thread: Re Scout Planet &c
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:13:30 BST
Status: U



>Well, scientism is an excessive reliance on scientistic!?! hypothesising, so perhaps an astrologist is one who consults a chart for the right moment to brush his teeth
>
>Jon
>
>>Can someone please explain to me exactly what is an Astrologist? If there
>>is such a thing as Astrologism, I might like to try it.
>>
>>Many thanks, John Frawley
>>
>>The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
>>Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>




Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and my Two Sense.....
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:13:43 BST
Status: U



>Are there any other psychologists out there? It occurred to me reading this that a traditional astrologer is concerned with objective events, a ?modern ?psychological astrologer is concerned with subjectivity, motivations & perceptions, as Frank says below.
>In parallel, a traditional psychologist interested in events would be a behaviourist, right out of fashion today, while all the running in psychology today is in the cognitive field, all perceptions and constructions of meaning.
>Funny ol' world, innit?
>Jon
>
>
>>At 07:28 AM 7/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>>First and foremost, PLEASE DEFINE "TRADITIONAL" in the field of Astrolgy. I
>>>will follow the rules and observe silently, but truly need to know what it
>>>means to be a "traditionalist" in this field.
>>>
>>As far as I can tell, a "traditional" astrologer is one who concerns
>>himself with events and potentials, rather than motivations and perceptions.
>>
>>Frank Ernest
>>You are invited to visit my home page at:
>>http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest
>>
>>
>
>




Thread: Mutable signs
From: Tom Nicholson <tpotts@metronet.co.uk> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:43:07 +0100

Jude, you wrote:

----------
From: Jude DaShiell
Sent: 27 July 1997 06:01
To: Sue Ward
Cc: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: Mutable signs


I've been checking out some very old titles that discuss
astrology and there's reference to fruitful signs in one of the books.
Where do the fruitful signs fit in or is fruitful another
astrological alias?
//eoj

jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.

Check out Christian Astrology by William Lilly (p89).




Thread: Ptolemy and "Scout Planet"
From: JosephC637@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 08:24:07 -0400 (EDT)

I was interested that the "scout planet" this list has been speaking of turns
out to have some antique precedent. I quote from Ptolemy Tetrabiblos IV
Chapter 4 "On the Quality of Action," (I'm using the Robbins translation,
'till a better one comes out). Looking for a specific significator of one's
praxis, "it is needful to look both for the planet that has made its morning
appearance before the sun, and that which is at Midheaven, particularly when
it occupies the application of the Moon." The "scout planet" is the oriental
spearbearer of the Sun, which makes sense for questions of career. However,
this is only one of the possibilities for finding a "praxis" planet, but if
you have the same planet that is also in the tenth house or the Moon's next
application, you have a rather trustworthy determination on your hands.
Two comments: career matters are the only use I've seen in the traditional
literature of this "scout planet," and I would be loath to extend it to other
areas.
The second comment is that from my work it seems quite helpful for that
purpose.
Does anyone know of any sources which mention the morning riser differently
from the above? I would be very interested, thanks.
Joseph Crane


Thread: Mutable signs
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:40:45 BST

fruitful as opposed to barren

alan leo gives cancer scorpio pisces as fruitful and taurus libra sag aquarius as moderately so

jon

>
>I've been checking out some very old titles that discuss
>astrology and there's reference to fruitful signs in one of the books.
>Where do the fruitful signs fit in or is fruitful another
>astrological alias?
>//eoj
>
>jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>
>
>Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.
>
>
>




Thread: Mutable signs
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:33:00 -0400

At 01:00 AM 7/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I've been checking out some very old titles that discuss
>astrology and there's reference to fruitful signs in one of the books.
>Where do the fruitful signs fit in or is fruitful another
>astrological alias?
>//eoj
>
>jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

>From de Vore's "Encyclopedia of Astrology":

"Fruitful signs. Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces. The Water Signs. In Horary
Questions the Ascendant, Moon, or Lord of the Ascendant, if strongly placed
in any of these Signs, become symbols of children."

By contrast, the barren signs are Gemini, Leo and Virgo. In questions
concerning potential child-bearing, one looks to the Ascendant, Lord of and
planets in the first house, and the fifth house, Lord of and planets in the
fifth, to begin considerations for judgement.



Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and my Two Sense.....
From: Frank Ernest <fjernest@thepoint.net> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:08:44 -0400

At 07:28 AM 7/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>First and foremost, PLEASE DEFINE "TRADITIONAL" in the field of Astrolgy. I
>will follow the rules and observe silently, but truly need to know what it
>means to be a "traditionalist" in this field.
>
As far as I can tell, a "traditional" astrologer is one who concerns
himself with events and potentials, rather than motivations and perceptions.

Frank Ernest
You are invited to visit my home page at:
http://www.thepoint.net/~fjernest


Thread: Re Scout Planet &c
From: John Frawley <j@apprentice.demon.co.uk> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 03:14:43 -0700

Can someone please explain to me exactly what is an Astrologist? If there
is such a thing as Astrologism, I might like to try it.

Many thanks, John Frawley

The Astrologer's Apprentice magazine: astrology with a passion!
Visit our website: http://www.apprentice.demon.co.uk




Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and my Two Sense.....
From: "J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix22.ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 06:24:41 +0000

AMBurtell@aol.com wrote:

> First and foremost, PLEASE DEFINE "TRADITIONAL" in the field of Astrology. I
> will follow the rules and observe silently, but truly need to know what it
> means to be a "traditionalist" in this field.
>
> I am a UNIVERSALIST. I just study something and if I feel it fits in with my
> beliefs and is of use, I use it. I NEVER limit myself. If I limit myself in
> any way I feel as if I'm not being as much of service as I could be (in any
> field or endeavor I take). This is me. Each person can follow any belief
> system they wish, that's their choice. However, that doesn't stop me from
> believing the way I believe or reading or studying something that is of
> interest to me.
Easy. The purpose of this board was as a discussion group for
astrological ideas that pre-date 1700, or with ways to use these
ideas with astronomical matters (such as the discoveries of the outer
planets) that occurred after this time.

Unfortunately, the use of the term "traditional" is more ambiguous at
this point than "classical" (which I prefer) because so many modern
astrologers are calling what they do "traditional," which I am coming
to understand means "whatever I personally did before 1980."

While I certainly support your position politically and spiritually,
most astrological classicists would no doubt support the position
that modern astrology has done more to dilute Art than to support
Art. We have, as a classical group, come to rely on prediction as a
means of testing ourselves and our Art. And many of us have come to
wonder just what a lot of modern astrologers are even doing!

So: while a focus on classical method may lead to a narrowing of
options, there is a downside to universalism: the jack-of-all-trades
phenomenon. I think you'll observer, for example, that most mystics
pretty rigidly follow a religious sect or practice, then talk about
universalism AFTER they have experienced their vision. Attempting to
act the part BEFORE can often simply result in confusion or shallow
practice.

---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction


Thread: Mutable signs
From: Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 01:00:51 -0400 (EDT)


I've been checking out some very old titles that discuss
astrology and there's reference to fruitful signs in one of the books.
Where do the fruitful signs fit in or is fruitful another
astrological alias?
//eoj

jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Microsoft asks me where I want to go today but UNIX gets me there.



Thread: VOD
From: kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:49:39 -0500

On a chart I cast the significator is Mercury at 26 degrees. It will
not make a major aspect to any slower moving planet before it leaves the
sign. Before Mercury leaves the sign the Moon will change signs and then
trine Mercury. Is Mercury void of course.

Kent


Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Changing Signs
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:16:04 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-26 08:34:58 EDT, you write:

<< I believe that the Moon is Void of Course when she is not in aspect or in
the
moiety of orbs of the other planets. I also believe it dosn't matter whether
she is at the end of sign or not she could be void at any time she is not
making an aspect! I would be most interested in your Thoughts.
Rodger
>>

Rodger,

Maurice McCann has just published a short book that goes into this topic in
detail. It is called The VOid of Course Moon and is published by Tara
Astrological Publications of London.

Tony


Thread: FW:Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Changing Signs
From: TonyLouis@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 08:31:08 -0400 (EDT)

In a message dated 97-07-26 00:37:10 EDT, you write:

<< Here Lilly says the Moon is a little bit Void of Course >>

Jon,

Lilly regards the Moon as void of course when the Moon is not within orb of
applying to any aspects according to his list of orbs for the various
planets. In the Presbytery chart, the Moon is out of orb of application of
any aspects and thus is void by his definition. When the Moon travels just a
short distance in that chart, it will be within orb of applying to aspects
and will no longer be void. Hence he says it is just a little bit void
because it will not be void for very long.

Hope this makes sense,

Tony


Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and my Two Sense.....
From: AMBurtell@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 07:28:15 -0400 (EDT)

I believe that since I started all of this about "SCOUT PLANETS" I would
chime in with my two sense....

Before I wrote my inquiry a few days ago I was first observing this forum and
noticing over the last few weeks that various types of questions were being
asked. I first tried to figure out what astrologist I could ask or look to
for help with my questions. I asked one fellow I know and he doesn't have
time to help me. I then felt the most logical place was where the experts
were located. I didn't want to burden anybody, but felt that if someone was
so inclined to help, they would. That's all I expected. I know that I
always try to share whatever knowledge I have with anyone, on any subject,
when I can. It's just my nature.

First and foremost, PLEASE DEFINE "TRADITIONAL" in the field of Astrolgy. I
will follow the rules and observe silently, but truly need to know what it
means to be a "traditionalist" in this field.

I am a UNIVERSALIST. I just study something and if I feel it fits in with my
beliefs and is of use, I use it. I NEVER limit myself. If I limit myself in
any way I feel as if I'm not being as much of service as I could be (in any
field or endeavor I take). This is me. Each person can follow any belief
system they wish, that's their choice. However, that doesn't stop me from
believing the way I believe or reading or studying something that is of
interest to me.

Let me tell you a little bit about my background. I have a degree in
International Politics, I have lived and traveled to over 32 countries;
including China, India, Thailand, Switzerland, Russia, etc...and I'm only 30
years old. My interest in Astrology stems from the interest in people, from
all cultures, races and religious backgrounds. I also have studied world
religions for nearly 18 years.

I just keep on observing, living life, and trying to understand what is
beyond the surface. I have learned to accept people and their belief
systems, but it doesn't stop me from trying to understand the core root of
that belief system. I observe. I have my ROSE-COLORED glasses, but I absorb
as much truth, understanding, and depth as possible, wherever life leads me.
We each have our way of handling life and finding our happiness. That's
what makes life GREAT!

Again, thank you for the opportunity for me to be part of this worthwhile
forum in order to gain a greater understanding of what is going on in the
field. of Astrology today.

All the Best,


Ann-Marie Burtell



Thread: FW:Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Changing Signs
From: jon@emarkt.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 22:59:58 BST
Status: U



>
>
>>I have pondered this question since 1990 when I received my first Copy of
>>William Lilly.
>>
>>Example 2 page 439 If Presbytery shall Stand
>>Here Lilly says the Moon is a little bit Void of Course What?
>>Page 442 From what I do find by this Figure, I conclude, that Presbytery
>>shall not stand here in England (statu quo) without refining and amending,
>>and demolishing many scrupulous matters urged at present by the Clergy; for
>>if we consider Jupiter as Lord of the fourth, we find the Moon, in plain
>>language, (after a little being void of course) run hastily
>
>he means being 'void of course for a little time', not 'partly void of course'
>
>I'm lost to understand the problem here
>
>jon
>
>




Thread: Horary chart/Timing
From: Sue Ward <sueward@easynet.co.uk> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:47:41

At 09:43 24/7/1997 BST, Jon wrote:
>
>
>>At 17:42 22/7/1997 -0400, Allen wrote:
>>>Hi, Denis,
>>>
>>>>> Shall I become a professional astrologer?
>
>>
>>The 'shall' in the question is ambiguous. Denis, were you asking 'will I
>>ever be...' or something like: 'is it a good idea if...'. It's a small
>>point, but I've found that the 'will I ever' questions can often be
>>difficult to answer.
>
>
>Why would 'shall' be ambiguous? 'Shall' has to do with matters of fact in
the future and 'will' has to do with matters of volition. So 'shall I
become an astrologer' is asking about what is going to happen, 'will I
become...' is asking about what I want
>to happen.

This is exactly why I asked. Was there a specific opportunity to become a
full time astrologer or was it just a general question with no particular
time in mind.

>Incidentally, I imagine Lilly would have been more accustomed than is
current usage to the 'proper' conjugatons of Will and Shall, which are
quite bizarre:
>-about facts in the future: I shall, you will, he will, we shall, you
will, they will
>-and about matters of volition: I will, you shall, he shall, we will, you
shall, they shall

Others, better qualified than me, have said just this that his grammar is
very good.

Sincerely

Sue
sueward@easynet.co.uk
The Traditional Horary Course


Thread: Scout Planet
From: AMBurtell@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:05:59 -0400 (EDT)

Hello:

I received a wonderful description of the SCOUT PLANET from Patti Ramsay, I
hope she doesn't mind that I have forwarded this to everyone. It is quite
enlightening. In fact, I think the Scout Planet may play quite a
siginificant role in certain charts, depending on the position of the Scout
Planet. In the case I was talking about, the Scout Planet is Saturn, and
Saturn is in its Return. SUN in ARIES in 5th HOUSE and SATURN in ARIES in
5th HOUSE, with the SCOUT PLANET in SATURN, and now SATURN RETURN. I like
the analogy to a PR person. Great way of looking at it.

See Below for further information on the subject.....
________________________________________________________-
The scout planet, or Oriental planet, (defined in Sakoian & Caulfield's
"Astrological Patterns") is ... "the first planet ahead of the Sun traveling
in a clockwise direction... The Scout Planet indicates the affairs of life
that are constantly brought to the fore and demand some kind of response, and
it
must be dealt with and handled effectively before the power potential of the
Sun
can be expressed." This Scout Planet is then is the planet that crosses the
cusps
and angles before the Sun does, with no planets in between. The diurnal
motion is
the apparent clockwise motion of the sky/zodiac/ecliptic/planets. In other
words,
if you are looking at the sun in the daytime, and watch as it travels
westward to
the setting horizon (or symbolically the Descendant), imagine it traveling
"back-
ward" through the houses. At noon, it is near the Midheaven. In a couple of
hours,
roughly, it passes back through the cusp of the ninth house, then the
eighth, then
it sets near the Descendent. Imagine a Scout Planet traveling ahead of the
Sun
(usually venus or mercury, but of course it can be any planet). This Scout
"scopes
out" the territory, so to speak; I believe that by its own planetary nature,
the
sign it's in, and its house, as well as the house/s it rules, that shows the
type
of energy that is "set up" for the sun's trip. It's sort of like a PR person
or
agent that meets everyone first, greets the people, sets the mood, tells them
what IT wants them to know, and the SUN enters. You have to deal with the
situation
as the Scout Planet set it up before you can then be free to be your sun. In
your case,
Saturn would tend to create a somewhat somber atmosphere, with limits and
rules, and substance, but it really depends on its sign, house, rulerships,
aspects,
etc. Imagine entering a room (House in your chart) before you do. Imagine it
entering
your workplace, home, neighborhood, relationships, etc., before you do. Quite
a
different situation from my entering my life areas after Venus has put in her
appearance!

Ann-Marie (Thanks to Patti for Scout Planet description....)


Thread: Lee Lehman/Three Wise Men
From: DENIS LABOURE <Laboure@wanadoo.fr> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:15:47 +0200

Dear Lee,

In your excellent "Classical astrology for modern living", you write :
"The Astrologers could not have used either some form of locational
astrology, or found where a previous eclipse or major conjonction was
angular." (page 23)

We'll never know the technique they used. But Matthiew 2,2 gives a part
of the answer. "The rising star" is consistent with the astrology of
this period.It was not an eclipse and the ascendant was the angle they
used.

Denis.


Thread: Is the Moon Really Void at 29 degree's or is she just Changing Signs
From: RG4invirgo@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:48:40 -0400 (EDT)

I have pondered this question since 1990 when I received my first Copy of
William Lilly.
Modern definition of Void of Course
Olivia Barclay The aspects made by the Moon include any made from the sign
in which it is placed. Once the Moon has left the sign it is in, matters are
beyond the scope of the question pondered. The situation has begun a new
chapter. If the Moon makes no aspect between its present position and the end
of the sign it is in, it is called void of course, meaning there is nothing
you can do about it. (Horary Rediscovered)
Anthony Louis also gives a similar definition and gives us useful information
of how Ivy Jacobson, Marc Edmund Jones and others view this condition of the
moon. For fear the post would run to long I refer you to his book on horary.

William Lilly's definition
A Planet is Void of course, when he is separated from a Planet, nor doth
forth with, during his being in that Sign, apply to any other: This is most
usually in the Moon; in judgements do you carefully observe whether she be
void of course yea or no; you shall seldom see a business go handsomely
forward when she is so.
My debate is where does he say end of sign, or changing of sign, or current
position of the Moon???
I think we all would agree any planet changing a sign has an effect for one
the ruler of the new sign and essential dignities of the new sign change
however, in Lilly's chart examples, the current position of the moon is never
used. He would see the last aspect the moon made, then go to the current
aspects, then to the future aspects. Sometimes the last aspect the moon made
was in another sign. This he would write in the middle of the Chart.

Chart Example page 165 C.A.
Here the Ascendant and the Moon are significators of the Ship, and those that
sail in her: the Moon lately separated from a square of Saturn, Lord of the
eighth and ninth, then at time of the Question void of course; but afterwards
first applyed to a trine of Saturn, then to Opposition of Mercury, Lord of
the twelfth & fourth; this showed the Ship had lately been in danger (of
Death) viz. shipwreck: and as the Moon had been void of course, so had no
news been heard of her; (the ship)
Here the Moon is not only the co ruler but significator of the Ship. The
actual square happened in the sign before and was void in that sign and into
the next sign until she trined Saturn. My concern is if we were to judge
this chart today without looking at the last aspect, but focused on the
current aspect which is trine Saturn would we have had the insight that the
ship had been in danger. The Moon was void from the previous aspect to the
change of sign into Virgo does this hold true to the Modern definition of
Void of Course?
One argument could be that Lilly said it was void only in Leo and when it
changed signs to Virgo she was no longer void which is weak at best. The
reason she was void was because she wasn't in aspect regardless of end of
sign!!

Example 2 page 439 If Presbytery shall Stand
Here Lilly says the Moon is a little bit Void of Course What?
Page 442 From what I do find by this Figure, I conclude, that Presbytery
shall not stand here in England (statu quo) without refining and amending,
and demolishing many scrupulous matters urged at present by the Clergy; for
if we consider Jupiter as Lord of the fourth, we find the Moon, in plain
language, (after a little being void of course) run hastily to the square of
Mars and Jupiter; intimating, the Commonalty will defraud the expectation of
the Clergy, and so strongly oppose them, that the end hereof shall wholly
delude the expectation of the Clergy.
Ok Moons position in the Chart is 13.37 Libra Mars is 25.40 Cancer and
Jupiter is 28.24 Cancer Moiety of the Moons orb is 6 Mars moiety is 3 1/2
and Jupiter is 6 In order for the Moon to aspect Mars you add 6 plus 3 1/2
= 9 1/2 orb and Jupiter has a 12 degree orb. The Moon is 12 degree's away
from Mars and 15 degrees from Jupiter ergo a little being void of course!!

Example 3 page 471 A Lady of her Husband imprisoned, when he should be
delivered?
Here is the most convincing proof so far!! The Moon is at 29 degree's but
she has applying aspects to Saturn by sextile and Trine to Jupiter and she is
in reception with Jupiter the next sign she will be in. I'm aware of the
idea that: the answer to this question was perfected the day before and thats
why Lilly left out the term Void of Course. I strongly disagree! The reason
why Lilly didn't call this a Void of Course Moon is because she wasn't void!!

I believe that the Moon is Void of Course when she is not in aspect or in the
moiety of orbs of the other planets. I also believe it dosn't matter whether
she is at the end of sign or not she could be void at any time she is not
making an aspect! I would be most interested in your Thoughts.
Rodger


Thread: Andrew Cunanan
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:10:01 -0700

Dear Jonathon and Fellow Horary lovers,

Here is what I have gathered 'after the fact' about the Versace murder and
the subsequent suicide of Andrew Cunanan. I was unable to find an exact time
given for the murder of Versace. However, I was able to find the time that
Versace left his mansion, as reported in the nytimes and the nbc tv program
'dateline' as 8:30 am EDT (4) Tuesday (a mars day).

Versace leaves his mansion 

     15 Jul 1997
     8.30 A.M. (4)
     80.11 WEST
     25.47 NORTH
     02H  42M  51S
     Regiomontanus
                 17 GEM             13 TAU             10 ARI
                     *                *                *
                                      *
                        *             *             *
     18 CAN                           *                            12 PIS
          *                *          *          *                *
              *                       *              SN22Pis  *
        SU23Can   *           *       *SA20Ari*           *
        ME13Leo       *               *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                              *               *
                             *                 *             JU20AquR
     16 LEO ******************                 ******************* 16 AQU
        VE20Leo              *                 *
                              *               *
                          *      * ** * ** *      *
                      *               *               *      UR07AquR
                  *           *MA12Lib*       *           *  NE28CprR
              *  NN22Vir              *                       *
          *                *          *          *                *
     12 VIR                           *                            18 CPR
                        *             * PF16Sag     *
                                      * PL02Sag
                     *                * MO23Sco        *
                 10 LIB             13 SCO             17 SAG

The hour ruler is the Sun, as well as the ruler of the ascendent. Versace,
and did not have a bodyguard, as a man of his stature normally would on his
final walk. This lack of self-preservation is indicated by his ruler in the
12th and peregrine in Cancer. He might not have been fully awake as he left
his home that fateful morning. Versace is also represented by planets in the
1st. Versace, the famous fashion designer is well described with Venus in
elegant Leo in the 1st, in partile opposition to the ruler of the 8th house,
Jupiter, which itself is placed in the 7th of open enemies. The antiscion of
the ascendent is on the mc, noting Versace's immense fame. So far this
describes the victim.

The ruler of the 7th and planets in the 7th will describe the murderer,
Andrew Cunanan. Aquarius is on the cusp of the 7th with a retrograde Jupiter
tenented therein. As I watched the live footage of Cunanan final refuge, the
houseboat, I couldn't help but think of Tony's recent remark, " Aquarius
often signifies locations where a liquid meets a solid." Lilly said, "for
fugitives have respect for the Moon, being the natural significatrix of
them, by reason of her quick motion" (CA328). The Moon is in Scorpio in the
4th house. The 4th house points north, and Scorpio points north east.
Aquarius is on the 7th, (the fugitive CA328) points west by north, so the
prevailing direction is north. Cunanan was 2 miles north of where Versace
was killed. Aquarius also indicates high places, and I have heard
unofficially that Cunanan's body was found on the top floor of the house
boat. That Cunanan would be found and that he shot himself (to me) is
represented by the Moon in scorpio in the 4th house of the grave is on the
antiscion of Uranus (explosions) who is itself retrograde. " Moon joined to
a infortune, or to a planet retrograde, he shall be found or come again,
having endured much misery since his departure." (CA329)



jonathon wrote:
>I suggest the best chance would be found from the chart erected for the time
>and place of the shooting - can anyone supply that accurately from the USA,
>please. I couldn't find an exact time in the UK media.
>Thanks,
>Jonathon
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>



Thread: Versace
From: AstroMaggi@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:08:41 -0400 (EDT)

Jim Savage, Investigations Editor of the Miami Herald, states the time of
Versace shooting was 8:44 AM EDT July 15, 1997, Miami Beach FL.

Maggie






Thread: Scout Planet, other subjects and Hello!......
From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:01:28 +0000

At 04:50 PM 7/24/97 +0000, J. Lee Lehman wrote:

And with this anti-scholarship attitude,
>where alleged creativity is valued more than the creativity of
>explaining or extending an existing techniques, one wonders how much
>good stuff has simply been lost...

Both anti-scholarship and anti-intellectual attitude...

However, can't we all just get along? Perhaps not here on the Lilly List,
but in the broader astrological community, isn't there room for both
unearthing and restoring old and classical techniques, as well as exploring
new approaches? We don't build a foundation just to sit on it - it is a base
from which we can venture forth to explore further. However, the solid
foundation grounds whatever else we do.

There is just so much to do in astrology today, and no one person can do it
all. What we need is perhaps a group of some kind...with some studying the
classical, some studying strictly horary, some studying synastry (old and
new), some studying asteroids and other new astronomical findings...etc...

Maybe this is exactly what we have...each of us working on our projects and
pieces of the puzzle. Perhaps we just need to respect each other's work and
recognize the need for communication and cooperation, rather than pitting
the work or subjects of one against another, or valuing one person/school's
work over another's.

What we need is an active Research Foundation as well..

Julienne



Thread: Scout Planet
From: Miriam Laister <cosmic@dove.mtx.net.au> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 07:29:28

Dear Angela,

I dont know the term, but could it mean the rising planet? Or perhap the
planet that rises before the sun. Anne-Marie, perhaps you can tell us if
either is the case with the chart that you were examining.


>There have been a couple of replies to this original posting, but none
have
>referred to the term 'scout planet'. Can anyone elaborate on what is a

>'scout planet' and how is it incorporated into the general scheme of