William Lilly Mailing List Archive

Thread:	Fraud
From:	Anne Fryer <afryer@light.iinet.net.au>	Date:	Mon, 31 Mar 1997 07:51:39 -0800

Status: U

Many thanks to everyone who helped me with the how to spot a shonky business
deal. A friend, who knows very little about his father - and nothing about
his father's family, recently received a telephone call from an interstate
brother about a man from Eastern Europe who had called to say that he was a
distant relative and wanted a small amount of money to cover the printing
and postage costs for researching their family tree.

I asked the question: IS MY FRIEND'S CALL ABOUT HIS FATHERS RELATIVES
GENUINE OR IS IT A SCAM? 12 March 1997 at 6:50 AM -10:30, Adelaide, 34s55,
138e35. 15 Pis Asc which I could relate to neither myself or my friend.
Day was Mercury and Hur was Venus - and the question was about a friend's
telephone call. Moon was VOC at 29 Aries 49.

I used 3rd House Taurus for my friend and Gemini on 4th for his family
roots. Mercury is in detriment, in fall, has -8 essential dignity and is
Cazimi the Pisces Sun at 21. Mercury rules the trickster. Mercury next
aspect is conjunct SN, followed by Sextile to Neptune in 11 of Hopes and
Wishes, finishing with an opposition to Mars conjunct NN in the 7th. Does
not look good for the telephone call.
Venus, my friend, has + 4 essential dignity but it is under the Sun's beams.
Not good.
Saturn has -9 or Essential Dignity and is Pergrine. Not Good.
Moon is VOC at 29 Aries.

The brother has decided to send the money to Eastern Europe. I told my
friend to be very careful if further requests for funds were forthcoming.

Again, many thanks for your help.

Thread:	Insurance 8th or 9th?
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Mon, 31 Mar 1997 08:41:50 -0800

Status: U

Thank you all, who so insightfully answered my question re: insurance 8th or
9th house. I am so grateful. I feel lucky to be able to have instant access
to your collective brains. Thank you Carol for making this possible.

Very Fondly,
Dorothy

PS does anybody out there have the time, that either, the police or the
former cult member arrived on the scene of the Rancho Santa Fe(33n01,117w10)
Suicides? I found 2 conflicting times, 3:15p(L.A. Times) and "just after
4pm:(SanDiegoUnion Tribune).

Thanks again all you great Horary Astrologers out there!

Thread:	Horary & Lies
From:	JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net>	Date:	Mon, 31 Mar 1997 07:18:10 -0800

Status: U

I remembered this question when I was reviewing notes from a lecture session
with Rob Hand. He suggested that a square between Mercury and Mars, with
Mars the stronger, would indicate a conflict between ego and truth, with ego
the winner.

-JoAnne

At 12:47 PM 3/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Dear Sue,
>In a message dated 97-03-14 16:16:16 EST, you write:
>
>>I don't think that there is just one although Mercury is used a lot in
>>business deals. So, an afflicted Mercury, particularly by Saturn, would
>>usually show something dodgey going on. The south node can also show
>>treachery or deceit. Hard aspects between Moon, Mercury and Saturn can show
>>lies. Essential dignity, or lack of it, can indicate the substance of the
>>deal or of the person involved.
>
>A few people have written about an afflicted Mercury, by Saturn, or/and
>combust
>showing deceit or lies. My questions are: 1) does this also refer to a natal
>chart, and 2) would that imply only that the Native tends towards lying, or
>could it also mean that rather the Native might tend to be the victim of
>others' lies?
>
>Honestly,
>Levia
>
>
>
JoAnne Schmitz
jschmitz@qis.net

Thread:	Ivy Goldstein Jacobson books
From:	spica@world.net (Anne Elliott)	Date:	Fri, 28 Mar 1997 23:43:47 -0800

Dear Angela
Yes I sell all of her books and have nearly all of them in stock in hardback.
What country are you in?
I'm in Australia.

cheers
Anne

Thread:	Insurance 8th or 9th?
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:02:08 -0800

Dear Angela and Deb,

Thank you both, for your valuble insights re: insurance 8th or 9th ruler.
Deb, thank you for detailing what you would look for re:settling with the
insurance company. (13Mar1997,TZ8,3:50PM,37N58,122W33) This was another case
where we both agreed that the querent would be wise not to settle at this
time, though our methods for arriving at that conclusion, differed. She
chose insurance as Mars ruler of the 9th house, and I chose the ruler of the
8th house, Jupiter. My reasoning for chosing the 8th house ruler to
represent insurance is an extension of what Deb said:
>The insurance company itself is represented by the 7th house -- as they are
>the other party in this matter.
So an insurance settlement would be the 2nd house from the 7th, the 8th.

An insurance settlement is much like an inheritance, in that it is a payment
for pain and suffering. The 8th house is a succeedent or substance
house(2,5,8,11). That is they have to do with our assets or others assets,
or lack of them. In Lilly's day, the 8th ruled, " the Estate of men
deceased, death it's quality and nature, the Wills, Legacies and testaments
of men deceased; dowry of the wife; portion of the maid, whether much or
little, easie to be obtained or with difficulty. In duels it represents the
adversaries second; in lawsuits, the defendents friends. What kind of death
a Man shall die, it signifies fear and anguish of minde. Who shall enjoy or
be heir to the deceased."(CA54).

To my way of thinking, insurance is similar to taxes(8th?). I am forced by
law to carry various types of insurance coverage, so it's just another just
another bill(debt8th).
An insurance settlement is money(the 2nd) from opposition(the 7th). I can
see the 9th as money from a crisis (2nd of the 8th), but that throws my
feeling that assets/debts would logically show up in substance
houses(2,5,8,11). The 9th house is Cadent. Cadent houses(3,6,9,12), to my
way of thinking, are not concerned with monetary issues, except by
association, as in my daughters money(6th), or my friends
money(12).According to Lilly, the 9th ruled, "voyages and long journies
beyond the seas of Religious men, or Clergy of any Kinde, whether Bishops or
inferior Ministers; Dreams, Visions, forraign countries, of books learning,
church livings, or Benefices, Advowsions; the kindred of one's wife, and sic
contrario." (CA54)

Thanks again for your views. I am still open to the 9th house if anybody has
some good arguments, until then I will probably stick with the 8th!

Fondly,
Dorothy

Thread:	Is insurance 8th or 9th ruler?
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Fri, 28 Mar 1997 08:06:36 -0800

>Dear Dorothy,
>
An insurance claim is basically the consequence of a contract entered into
between the querent (first house) and insurance company (seventh house). The
resources of the insurance company are therefore represented by the radical
eighth or turned second. However, I think it may be a mistake to look to the
eighth house for the benefits of your client. It is more properly dealt with
by the condition of the second house - see Deborah Houlding's posting on
this subject. The eighth house will certainly give you the condition of the
insurance company's finances which may help the decision to settle e.g. if
the eighth house is so bad that you think future claims might not be honoured.

I'm afraid I can't see the justification for the ninth house to deal with
insurance policies but I'm willing to learn what Tony Louis's authority is
if he has used it in his book. I may have missed an angle somewhere.

Best Wishes,
Jonathon

I am very curious about which house my fellow listers use when asked about
>that relatively modern fact of life, "insurance" would come under. I was
>taught to use the ruler of the 8th, my friend says the 9th house. There are
>differing opinions amongst authors.
>
>Anthony Louis (Horary Astrologyp.460)" for insurance- 8, insurance
>adjuster-9, insurance agents-9, insurance companies-9, insurance for fire
>and damage,9, insurance policy-8, and insurance settlement-8."
>
>Jacobson on Insurance, (Simplified Horary Astrology p.249), "insurance is
>ruled by the 9th House and Jupiter; the policy by Mercury, and its maker by
>the ruler of the 7th and Venus. Take the 1st, its ruler and the Moon for the
>querent, also Fortuna if not in Pisces."
>
>Barclay,(Horary Astrology Redidscovered p.57), The Ninth House:
>"....ceremonies, insurance and publishers."
>
>Rex Bills(THe Rulership Book p.70) gives insurance;" 8, Pluto, scorpio" and
>then in parenthesis "(jup mars neptune, saturn 9)".
>
>The queried was asked on Mar 13,1997 3:50p;(PST8) 122w33, 37n58
>Would it be wise to settle the insurance claim, now?
>The client had been under some pressure to settle with her insurance company
>for an injury accident that took place last september.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>Dorothy
>
>
>
>

Thread:	Horary Question
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 28 Mar 1997 04:49:02 -0800

In a message dated 97-03-27 16:30:16 EST, you write:

<< I asked a question about his safety (several
months ago), >>

Can you post the data for your horary chart: date, time, location, TZ.

Thanks,

Tony

Thread:	Is insurance 8th or 9th ruler?
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 28 Mar 1997 04:49:06 -0800

My preference would be to use the 8th for insurance since it is a matter of
other people's money (2nd of the 7th). I suspect the 9th house connection
has to do with legal matters governed by the 9th.

Thread:	Is insurance 8th or 9th ruler?
From:	Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com>	Date:	Thu, 27 Mar 1997 02:14:10 -0800

>The queried was asked on Mar 13,1997 3:50p;(PST8) 122w33, 37n58
Would it be wise to settle the insurance claim, now?
The client had been under some pressure to settle with her insurance
company
for an injury accident that took place last september.

This is really a financial matter for the querent so it may be simpler to
examine her 2nd house to decide whether to settle. If that looks fortunate
then its one indication that she should, but also check her own
significator and the Moon. These all need to be well placed.

The insurance company itself is represented by the 7th house -- as they are
the other party in this matter. If the 2nd house looks bad and the 8th
house is more fortunate, or the chart is generally unfortunate, then it
would be unwise to settle as she'll probably lose out financially by doing
so.

Insurance is one of those matters like law, which we often ascribe to the
9th house without understanding the reason why.
I see the 9th house as one where we receive council and advice -- both
spiritually and materially so there is some justification in placing
councillors and advisors there. Hence judges and the law itself are given
to the 10th, but our own lawyer, as a personal councillor, could be given
to the 9th. I can't see any justification for financial insurance being a
9th house matter.

Another thing worth checking out is the condition of the 11th house. If
that is well signified this could also indictate that 'luck' will go her
way and she will get what she's hoping for.

Best wishes,
Deb

Thread:	Update Mailinglists
From:	tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma)	Date:	Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:08:41 -0800

NOTE: Instructions for ASTROLA, ASTROPRO and MSTAR have been changed!
=====================================================================

The following international Newsgroups, Mailinglists and Newsletters for
astrology are now available:

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Love,
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---
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---

Thread:	Horary Question
From:	Helen Kelly <astrologic@earthlink.net>	Date:	Thu, 27 Mar 1997 00:38:13 -0800

I am very worried about my son. He has met a man who has "brought him
out", and has him convinced that his family is "against him" (he is now
convinced that everyone is a potential alien, and even said that I was
doing vodoo against him in the mirror. When I denied this, he said I
would not be aware of it!) I asked a question about his safety (several
months ago), and in the answer his ruler (Venus) was opposed by Pluto in
the 12th...Does this seem that he may be in danger? It's hard for me to
be objective, and I am only starting to learn Horary. Any help would be
appreciated
Worried Mother,
Helen

Thread:	Is insurance 8th or 9th ruler?
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <angy@e-mail.com>	Date:	Thu, 27 Mar 1997 01:12:41 -0800

Hi Dorothy, I must admit, I would have gone for the 8th house. Lilly CA p54/55
certainly seems to link more closely to it being an 8th house matter, given
that, as you say, we are talking about modern day practise; but surely
insurance policies would link to his comments about "....Wils, Legacies ..."
I know he talks about monies relating to death etc, but surely that also
relates to insurance policies as they are usually to cover death or injury.

I don't quite follow the link to 9th house, but I will be very interested to
find out, as there obviously is one.

Regards

Angela
NB Does anyone out there know of any Ivy Jacobson books for sale anywhere?

Thread:	War
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Wed, 26 Mar 1997 19:33:58 -0800

Status: U

Charmaine,

I don't do much electional stuff but take the first house or Ascendant for
the person for whom the chart is elected and relate that to the issue
closest to his/her heart, usually, which would mean, I would guess that it
was the attacked in your case as they are choosing the date etc. and war is
an adversarial issue - 1st/7th. But a king or government going into battle
would be represented by the 10th if you were drawing up a chart for that
king and were on his side (by representation), so to speak. His/its enemy
would then, of course, be the 7th from the 10th provided the enemy was
known. Are you being requested by the attacked to draw up an electional
chart for peace negotiations? This would put you on the side of the
attacked and, therefore, I think, indicate that the 1st house was the
appropriate house to represent the attacked if they are a private individual.

Do you think the "attacked" might wish to ask a question about the whole
"battle", the suit for peace and the outcome?

Lilly has some interesting stuff to say re: War on pp 366-368 of Christian
Astrology, if this helps. Also, he/she whose significator is in its
exaltation is expected to be the victor in a battle .... (lilly again).

All the best,

Pat.

Thread:	(Fwd) Zodiac Gazette
From:	starquest@securenet.net	Date:	Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:17:06 -0800

Status: U

I will make a point of visiting the site soon.

Starquest

At 05:16 PM 3/24/97 EDT, you wrote:
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 08:33:32 -0500
>From: Rowena Wall <urana-star@mindspring.com>
>Reply-to: urana-star@mindspring.com
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Zodiac Gazette
>
>Hi:
>
> I am the Sysop of the Zodiac Gazette, the Astrology Forum
>for Delphi Online Services. We have just gone ::LIVE:: on the We and
>would love to have you and your list members visit us at
>http://www.delphi.com/zodiac.
>
> We will be building a Resources page and if you will email
>the information about how to join your List, I will post that
>information there for you.
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> Rowena,Sysop
> Zodiac Gazette
>
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
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>JustUs & Associates
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>software and horary consultations, William Lilly Christian Astrology,
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print.
>Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
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>http://www.horary.com OnLine Shopping Mall
>
>

Thread:	Is insurance 8th or 9th ruler?
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:31:32 -0800

Dear Fellow Listers,

I am very curious about which house my fellow listers use when asked about
that relatively modern fact of life, "insurance" would come under. I was
taught to use the ruler of the 8th, my friend says the 9th house. There are
differing opinions amongst authors.

Anthony Louis (Horary Astrologyp.460)" for insurance- 8, insurance
adjuster-9, insurance agents-9, insurance companies-9, insurance for fire
and damage,9, insurance policy-8, and insurance settlement-8."

Jacobson on Insurance, (Simplified Horary Astrology p.249), "insurance is
ruled by the 9th House and Jupiter; the policy by Mercury, and its maker by
the ruler of the 7th and Venus. Take the 1st, its ruler and the Moon for the
querent, also Fortuna if not in Pisces."

Barclay,(Horary Astrology Redidscovered p.57), The Ninth House:
"....ceremonies, insurance and publishers."

Rex Bills(THe Rulership Book p.70) gives insurance;" 8, Pluto, scorpio" and
then in parenthesis "(jup mars neptune, saturn 9)".

The queried was asked on Mar 13,1997 3:50p;(PST8) 122w33, 37n58
Would it be wise to settle the insurance claim, now?
The client had been under some pressure to settle with her insurance company
for an injury accident that took place last september.

Thanks in advance.
Dorothy

Thread:	War
From:	Charmaine Horvath <tisifone@akron.infi.net>	Date:	Wed, 26 Mar 1997 04:12:19 -0800

Hello Classy as in Classical Astrologers,

A question has popped up in an electional discussion. If there is a
war, and the attacker now wants to discuss peace and allows the one
attacked to pick the day, time and place, in the electional chart, which
house represents the attacker and which one represents the attacked?

This question has an immediate need to be answered as the attacked is
getting pressure to get on with it. My thoughts are that the first
house would be the attacker who started the war, and the seventh the
attacked who has to fight back. But I've read that the fourth could
also be the beseiged one. Remember that the attacked fought back
vigorously and has gained the advantage at this point.

Thank you all so much ahead of time.

Charmaine

Thread:	UK General Election Data
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:40:38 -0800

>To: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
>From: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)
>Subject: Re: UK General Election Data
>
>>>To: Wm Lilly@halcyon
>>>From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
>>>Subject: Re: UK General Election Data
>>>
>>>>To: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)
>>>>From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
>>>>Subject: Re: UK General Election Data
>>>>
>>Patricia,
>
>Thanks for your thoughts on the UK Election. It seems to me that the
impetus for change can be seen from the angles in the announcement chart -
moveable signs on Ascendant and MC with very late degrees on the Ascendant
suggesting it is all over for this government.
>I'm not sure about Uranus in the polling chart. Although a "modern"
significator of change it is sitting in a fixed sign on the MC. The Ascedant
is mutable which is perhaps inconclusive.
>
>In the announcement chart I would take John Major to be signified by the
first and the Moon since he has called the contest with Tony Blair signified
by the seventh and Saturn.
>
>Moon in the twelfth of misery and self destruction suggests Major blows the
campaign by his own action while Saturn in the tenth seems to put Blair into
office. However, Saturn is in its fall and peregrine while the Moon is in
its own sign. This suggests to me that the timing is right for Blair to win
but that his basic character is open to question perhaps more than Major's.
>
>Jupiter in the seventh also seems to be an indication that Blair gets the
victory.
>>>
>In the polling chart, if we keep the same signification of first and
seventh for Major and Blair respectively we see that Mercury for Major is in
a pretty desperate state - retrograde, peregrine, under sunbeams and in the
twelfth while Jupiter (Blair), although peregrine, sits triumphant, albeit
still peregrine, in the tenth. This seems to make more sense than the
alternative signification which some might prefer of tenth and fourth
although I would be interested to hear the chart argued from that point of view.
>
>All the best,
>Jonathon
>
> Hi Jonathan,
>>>>
>>> Following your posting the posting regarding the UK election I
>>wrote very briefly as follows:
>>>
>>> 1. "Just taken a very brief look at the open of polls chart. One
>>thing is for sure - it looks like an election based on an extraordinary
>>amount of lies and deceit, in fact than usual. So whoever wins, the
>>electorate is bound to loose!"
>>>
>>>
>>> 1a. Well, from the furore about the obvious cover up of bribary,
>>corruption and sleeze at the disolving of parliament, it is apparent the
>>chart clearly defines the EXTRAORDINARY amount of lies and the deceipt which
>>has been perpetrated by this government, parliamentary ministers, and the
>>system as a whole. So much for the first paragraph of my original response.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 2. "Again based on a 60 second glance - Mercury on the announcement
>>MC and Uranus on the MC at start of poll makes a change look pretty evident.
>>However, I have only taken a fleeting glance at the charts and have not done
>>any cross references so I would not stake my reputation on this last remarks."
>>>
>>>
>>> 2a. Referring to my second paragraph in my original posting, as and
>>when I have time to look deeper into the relevant charts related to the
>>election results I will post you again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>regards,
>>>>
>>>>Patricia
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>>> You wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>The announcement for the UK General Election was made by John Major, the
>>>>>Prime Minister, at 12.35 p.m. GMT, 17th. March 1997, London (51N30,0W06).
>>>>>Ascendant for this chart is 29 degrees 19 minutes of Cancer.
>>>>>
>>>>>Polling will commence at 7.00 a.m. BST (-1) 1st. May 1997. Ascendant for
>>>>>chart set to London at this time shows 11 degrees 26' Gemini.
>>>>>
>>>>>Let the astrological debate commence - it may be rather more interesting
>>>>>than the political debate!
>>>>>
>>>>>Best Wishes,
>>>>>Jonathon Clark
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Thread:	UK General Election Data
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:40:33 -0800

Thread:	Astrology Magazine
From:	Pam Perry <pbc@chiswick.globalnet.co.uk>	Date:	Mon, 24 Mar 1997 04:35:22 -0800

Hi, I thought you might be interested in the monthly Astrology magazine
that I put on the WWW. It's called The Planets.
The URL is http://www.globalnet.co.uk/~pbc
Best Wishes Pam Perry

Thread:	UK General Election Data
From:	pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)	Date:	Mon, 24 Mar 1997 01:19:30 -0800

>To: treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)
>From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
>Subject: Re: UK General Election Data
>
> Hi Jonathan,
>
Following your posting the posting regarding the UK election I wrote
very briefly as follows:

1. "Just taken a very brief look at the open of polls chart. One
thing is for sure - it looks like an election based on an extraordinary
amount of lies and deceit, in fact than usual. So whoever wins, the
electorate is bound to loose!"

1a. Well, from the furore about the obvious cover up of bribary,
corruption and sleeze at the disolving of parliament, it is apparent the
chart clearly defines the EXTRAORDINARY amount of lies and the deceipt which
has been perpetrated by this government, parliamentary ministers, and the
system as a whole. So much for the first paragraph of my original response.
>

2. "Again based on a 60 second glance - Mercury on the announcement
MC and Uranus on the MC at start of poll makes a change look pretty evident.
However, I have only taken a fleeting glance at the charts and have not done
any cross references so I would not stake my reputation on this last remarks."

2a. Referring to my second paragraph in my original posting, as and
when I have time to look deeper into the relevant charts related to the
election results I will post you again.
>
>
>regards,
>
>Patricia
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> You wrote:
>
>>The announcement for the UK General Election was made by John Major, the
>>Prime Minister, at 12.35 p.m. GMT, 17th. March 1997, London (51N30,0W06).
>>Ascendant for this chart is 29 degrees 19 minutes of Cancer.
>>
>>Polling will commence at 7.00 a.m. BST (-1) 1st. May 1997. Ascendant for
>>chart set to London at this time shows 11 degrees 26' Gemini.
>>
>>Let the astrological debate commence - it may be rather more interesting
>>than the political debate!
>>
>>Best Wishes,
>>Jonathon Clark
>>
>>
>>
>

Thread:	Zodiac Gazette
From:	Rowena Wall <urana-star@mindspring.com>	Date:	Sun, 23 Mar 1997 05:33:43 -0800

Hi:

I am the Sysop of the Zodiac Gazette, the Astrology Forum
for Delphi Online Services. We have just gone ::LIVE:: on the We
and would love to have you and your list members visit us at
http://www.delphi.com/zodiac.

We will be building a Resources page and if you will email
the information about how to join your List, I will post that
information there for you.

Thanks a lot.

Rowena,Sysop
Zodiac Gazette

Thread:	Missing Fordham student webphoto
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:47:29 -0800

Status: U

It's possible to see a photo of Patrick McNeil, the missing Fordham
University Student, that Tony presented to the list a couple of weeks back at:

http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/nypd/html/

they list him as a white male, 6'1", brown eyes and black hair.
birthdate 2/24/1976, tatoo of an Irish Cross on his Right arm, and a gold
stud in his tongue.

Tony wrote:
>According to the New York Times: "Family Appeals for Help in Finding Fordham
>Student." Fordham University student Patrick McNeill disappeared just after
>midnight of Sunday 2/16/97 in NYC. Here are the details from the Times
>Article of 2/27/97:

> "Patrick McNeill Jr., a Fordham University student who disappeared after
>wandering away from a bar on Manhattan's Upper East Side..."

> Several of the search parties started at the Dapper Dog bar on East 92nd
>Street and Second Avenue, where Patrick went for a night of drinking with
>friends Feb. 16. He left around midnight and disappeared.
> Some of the searchers headed east, where one witness told police that he
>saw Patrick walking down 90th Street, apparently disoriented, between 12:30
>and 1 a.m. Others headed west, the direction that Patrick would have walked
>if he had taken the No. 4 or No. 6 subway train back to Fordham University.
> "He was supposed to wait for some girl who wanted to ride back on the
>subway with him to Fordham," Mrs. Corbetta said. "She went to the bathroom,
>and we don't know what happened, but when she came out, he was gone."
> The McNeills found out that he was missing the next day, when Patrick did
>not show up for his volunteer duty at an ambulance corps in the Bronx and a
>co-worker called the family.
> Patrick, whose 21st birthday was Monday [? Feb 24,1976 ?], was a junior,
>studying accounting. He grew up in Port Chester, the second of three
>children, and was captain of Port Chester High School's football team. He
>worked driving a school van from the Fordham campus in the Bronx to the
>Lincoln Center campus. In his spare time, he booked acts for TOPS, a
>University entertainment lounge.
> Anyone with information about Patrick's disappearance can call the search
>team's help line at (914) 939-7400, or toll-free at (888) 939-8990. The 48th
>Police Precinct in the Bronx is investigating the case; its number is (718)
>299-4119. "
>The above quote is Copyright 1997 The New York Times
>=========
>I cast the chart for 12:30 AM since the accounts of his last being seen range
>from midnight to 1 am on 2/17/97:
> Patrick McNeill Missing 17 Feb 1997 12.30 A.M. (5)
> 74.00 WEST 40.43 NORTH Regiomontanus
missing fordham student A.L.
17 Feb 1997
12.30 A.M. (5)
73.57 WEST
40.43 NORTH
10H 23M 08S
Regiomontanus
05 LIB 03 VIR 24 CAN
* NN00Lib * *
MA05Lib *
* * *
29 LIB * 18 GEM
* * * * *
* * MO01Can *
* * * * *
* * *
* * ** * ** * *
* *
* *
21 SCO ****************** ******************* 21 TAU
PL05Sag * *
* *
* * ** * ** * *
* * *
* *NE28Cpr* * *
* UR05Aqu* *
* * JU06Aqu * * *
18 SAG ME11Aqu * 29 ARI
* VE17Aqu * SA05Ari *
SU28Aqu * SN00Ari
* * PF24Pis *
24 CPR 03 PIS 05 ARI

>21 of Scorpio rises, so Mars signifies the missing student. Mars seems to be
>descriptive of this student/athlete. Mars is retrograde in the 11th at 5 of
>Libra (a westerly sign, and Patrick had headed west from the bar). Mars is
>also in peregrine and in detriment, but is in mixed reception with Saturn.
>In Lilly's system, Mars is the weakest planet in the chart.
>
>The Moon, which can rule the missing person, lies in the 8th of death at
>almost 2 of Cancer. Moon applies to square Mars at 5 of Libra and to square
>Saturn at 5 of Aries. Mars and Saturn are just separating from a recent
>opposition. I must say that these are ominous indications, and I would be
>itnerested in others' reactions to this chart.
>
>Tony
>
>
At 09:14 AM 3/8/97 -0500, you wrote:
>The following quote is from the NY Times on 3/6. He is still missing:
>
>"Patrick McNeill Jr., a Fordham University student, disappeared after leaving
>a Manhattan bar two weeks ago and his face is now plastered on utility poles
>all over the city. In his hometown of Port Chester, a room in the Village
>Hall has become the Patrick McNeill Volunteer Center. Neighbors and strangers
>work telephones, put up fliers and scour the city for the young man, who has
>apparently been spotted at least once since his disappearance. It is
>something to see. Jeff Gray, a friend of the McNeill family, said up to 800
>people have volunteered in some way, from school children holding bake sales
>to raise money for the center, to off-duty police officers volunteering their
>expertise. "

Thread:	Astrological Newsgroups, Mailinglists, Newsletters
From:	tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma)	Date:	Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:12:28 -0800

The following international Newsgroups, Mailinglists and Newsletters for
astrology are now available:

NEWSGROUPS
==========

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Sydney, Australia (33S52 151E13)

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19:14:54 MET, Tuebingen, Germany (48N31 09E02)

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"alt.astrology.marketplace" - born June 28, 1996, 09:17:30 pm PDT
(04:17:30 GMT June 29), San Diego, CA, USA
(32N43 117W09).
For astrological ADVERTISING!

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La Jolla, CA, USA (32N51 117W16)

(The "International Congress Agenda" is posted
to most of these newsgroups on a weekly basis)

MAILINGLISTS
============

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Love,
Tees
---
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---

Thread:	UK General Election announcement:
From:	"Hugh McNeill" <hcm@moose.co.uk>	Date:	Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:15:20 -0800

Here's an interesting chart:

John Major announced the date of the General Election (and his plans)
'live' to the Press at Downing Street, London, at between 12:34:45
and 12:35:20 GMT, 17 March '97.

The aspect patterns and Angular Planets seem to reflect the situation
quite appropriately, especially the positions of Neptune and Mercury,
and Pluto in relation to the Asc and MC.

Hugh McNeill
hcm@moose.co.uk

Thread:	UK General Election Data
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Tue, 18 Mar 1997 06:26:58 -0800

> Hi,
>
> Just taken a very brief look at the open of polls chart. One thing
>is for sure - it looks like an election based on an extraordinary amount of
>lies and deceit, in fact than usual. So whoever wins, the electorate is
>bound to loose!
>
> Again based on a 60 second glance - Mercury on the announcement MC
>and Uranus on the MC at start of poll makes a change look pretty evident.
>However, I have only taken a fleeting glance at the charts and have not done
>any cross references so I would not stake my reputation on these last remarks.
>
> Do you know the time of the close of polls?
>
10 p.m., I think.
Jonathon

>regards,
>
>Patricia
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> You wrote:
>
>>The announcement for the UK General Election was made by John Major, the
>>Prime Minister, at 12.35 p.m. GMT, 17th. March 1997, London (51N30,0W06).
>>Ascendant for this chart is 29 degrees 19 minutes of Cancer.
>>
>>Polling will commence at 7.00 a.m. BST (-1) 1st. May 1997. Ascendant for
>>chart set to London at this time shows 11 degrees 26' Gemini.
>>
>>Let the astrological debate commence - it may be rather more interesting
>>than the political debate!
>>
>>Best Wishes,
>>Jonathon Clark
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Thread:	UK General Election Data
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Mon, 17 Mar 1997 05:02:00 -0800

The announcement for the UK General Election was made by John Major, the
Prime Minister, at 12.35 p.m. GMT, 17th. March 1997, London (51N30,0W06).
Ascendant for this chart is 29 degrees 19 minutes of Cancer.

Polling will commence at 7.00 a.m. BST (-1) 1st. May 1997. Ascendant for
chart set to London at this time shows 11 degrees 26' Gemini.

Let the astrological debate commence - it may be rather more interesting
than the political debate!

Best Wishes,
Jonathon Clark

Thread:	News items
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Mon, 17 Mar 1997 00:37:56 -0800

Hi Carol,

Thanks for the two books, received last week. However, there was no mention
of Tony Louis' books; I did order two copies of each, but, to date, have
only received Brit Okin's. Are Anthony Louis' en route?

Regards

Angela

Thread:	Horary & Lies
From:	Leviam@aol.com	Date:	Sat, 15 Mar 1997 09:48:04 -0800

Status: U

Dear Sue,
In a message dated 97-03-14 16:16:16 EST, you write:

>I don't think that there is just one although Mercury is used a lot in
>business deals. So, an afflicted Mercury, particularly by Saturn, would
>usually show something dodgey going on. The south node can also show
>treachery or deceit. Hard aspects between Moon, Mercury and Saturn can show
>lies. Essential dignity, or lack of it, can indicate the substance of the
>deal or of the person involved.

A few people have written about an afflicted Mercury, by Saturn, or/and
combust
showing deceit or lies. My questions are: 1) does this also refer to a natal
chart, and 2) would that imply only that the Native tends towards lying, or
could it also mean that rather the Native might tend to be the victim of
others' lies?

Honestly,
Levia

Thread:	Questions from cooncerned mother
From:	CURT MANWARING <chiron@servtech.com>	Date:	Sat, 15 Mar 1997 05:48:18 -0800

Status: U

Pat,

Thanks for your reply. I got the sense that her mother was being overly
controlling in the situation over the phone and someone else said that her
daughter really wants to leave NYC and not stay as her mother says. Thanks
for alerting me to Caput Algol.

>If you are asking about more than one person, look at the order in which the
>Moon applies to each planet and take the first planet for the first person
>asked about, the second for the second and so on ....

This brings up an interesting question; since the Moon only applys to one
more planet (excluding Neptune) might this mean that only the first question
is radical?

>Do you test for radicality in your locality? You will need to have a set of
>tables which gives you sunrise and sunset, daily, for the whole of the year
>shown according t Sun's occupation of each of the 360 degrees according to
>the coordinates of your place. This will enable you to discover the planet
>for each of the hours in a 24 hr cycle of any given day and to see,
>according to Lilly's rules, p121, whether your chart is radical or not. But
>it is important to remember that each new day begins at sunrise and not
>midnight as modern clock time would have it.

I am familiar with this, however Bonatti has an interesting variation on the
planetary hours. I have described this briefly in my article at
http://www.servtech.com/public/chiron/begin.htm (in the middle of the second
paragraph) and how this may be a clue that the days of the week came after
the planetary hours were laid down. This in no way alters the way planetary
hours are noted but does alter "the one who goes about" in other words the
ruler of the day. Bonatti had not yet fully lost the doctrine of sect. At
this time in history there were daytime and nightime rulers, with the first
hour of the night ruling that night.

Given my example the triplicity ruler is Mars (Ptolemaic) but the hour ruler
is Saturn and the day is Jupiter. Unfortunately there is little agreement
here. She did ask about her daughter though and the triplicity of the
ascendant and the lord of her daughter are the same, the problem with this
though is that all questions about all daughters would have to be radical
(given whole sign houses).

Thanks again,
Curt Manwaring

Thread:	Plantetary Hours
From:	Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com>	Date:	Sat, 15 Mar 1997 05:30:52 -0800

Status: U

Dear Angela,

I think you have a copy of the Traditional Astrologer, issue no 5, and
you'll find in there a section on the origin and use of planetary hours
with clear tables to show exactly when there is correspondence between the
ascendant and hour ruler. (page 32 onwards).

Best wishes,
Deb
----------------------------------------------
Editor - Traditional Astrologer Magazine
Ascella Publications

Thread:	Questions from cooncerned mother
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:44:22 -0800

Dear Curt,

Your querent's (the mother's) sigificator is conjunct Caput Algol, a very
potent fixed star which is destructive in nature.

I can give you an example of its destructiveness in a question I asked about
an assignment I had prepared for a course I was studying. I asked if it
would be passed. The Moon played a significant role in the question and was
conjunct Caput Algol almost in exactly the same position. I feared the
worst and my assignment was returned to me as "unscientific". I had to
re-package it entirely. However, (Moon in its exaltation despite being
conjunct Caput Algol perhaps?) when it had been re-done, I got the best
marks for it that I had ever got for any assignment from that particular tutor.

Perhaps - I am only offering a tentative observation, here - the mother is
not objective about her daughter, not able to fully understand her
daughter's view of the situation and may have an unintentional destructive
effect on the matter (even though trine daughter's significator, Mars which
is R. signifying change of mind in some questions). However, Moon in
exaltation - the mother has integrity in situation - so perhaps you could
ask her to ask her daughter to get in touch with you and ask a simpler
question about the most pressing issue as far as she, the daughter, is
concerned.

By the way, although not stricly multiple questions, Lilly gives an example
of multiple persons enquired after on p430/431 of Christian Astrology.
This may adapt from the people example he gives to more than one job option
if the jobs haven't actually been offered yet. I tried this formula with
film options for a client and it worked in that I was able to tell from the
sign describing the name of the Company which Company would buy his film.
Ivy Goldstein Jacobsen - Simplified Horary Astrology - operates a system
whereby you take the radical 10th for the present job and the 10th from that
10th for the next or the radical third for the present car and the third
from the third for the next one (I have tried this for a client and, in that
instance, it worked right down to the different descriptions of the two cars
under consideration but it is only one case study).

If you are asking about more than one person, look at the order in which the
Moon applies to each planet and take the first planet for the first person
asked about, the second for the second and so on ....

Do you test for radicality in your locality? You will need to have a set of
tables which gives you sunrise and sunset, daily, for the whole of the year
shown according t Sun's occupation of each of the 360 degrees according to
the coordinates of your place. This will enable you to discover the planet
for each of the hours in a 24 hr cycle of any given day and to see,
according to Lilly's rules, p121, whether your chart is radical or not. But
it is important to remember that each new day begins at sunrise and not
midnight as modern clock time would have it. If not by these rules then the
Ascendant has got to describe the querent in an accurate way, either by
appropriate zodiacal birth chart significators or by physical description of
the querent. For example, if I ask a question and it gives the sign of
Cancer rising then, because I have Moon on the Ascendant, and Cancer is
ruled by the Moon you could take my question to be radical even if you could
not check the ruler of the hour and whether or not that planet matched up by
nature, triplicity or was the same planet as the ruler of the chart for the
question.

If the mother is asking about her daughter's University then the radical 9th
and its ruler should be considered in relation to the radical fifth and its
ruler and not the 9th from the fifth. If the daughter is not at the
University it is not her University yet. A colleague of mine asked a
similar question for her daughter and a potential university - whether she
would get a place or not - and was advised, I was told, by Olivia Barclay
to analyse the radical chart in this way.

Hope this helps.

Good wishes,

Pat.

Thread:	FW: afflicted mercury
From:	Prafulla Gang <prafulla@emirates.net.ae>	Date:	Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:16:06 -0800

-----Original Message-----
From: Prafulla Gang [SMTP:prafulla@emirates.net.ae]
Sent: Friday, March 14, 1997 10:56 AM
To: 'Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com'
Subject: afflicted mercury

Hi,
Mercury denotes artificial intelligence, communication and nervous =
system. The affliction may cause damage to these natural characteristics =
in addition to house rulership, which it may indicate in a chart.
Mars indicate skills and courage in terms of routine life and its =
relationship with mercury may lead to foul/rash language/mind and if =
mars is functional malefic, this may make a person a liar . However, =
second house and 5th house needs to be read with this affliction.
Saturn is natural friend to mercury and can influence it to the extent =
of rigidity, discipline, maturity.=20

Prafulla Gang=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Deborah Houlding [SMTP:Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 1997 2:54 PM
To: Carol A. Wiggers
Subject: Help

Hi Anne,

You write:

>HELP!! Now I don't have Neptune to look at for swindles, frauds and
suspicious business deals - what planet do I use. ??

--- Look for an afflicted Mercury. If its debilitated and afflicted by =
a
bad aspect to the malefics it corrupts communication and understanding. =
In
a birth chart Mercury square Saturn can be a sign of a liar, the square =
to
Mars can show exaggeration, etc. But you need to look at the overall
theme. If Saturn is dignified it is likely to show a reserved speaker, =
but
if it is peregrine and poorly dignified it tends to show corruption, or =
an
affliction to the mind or speech (it can show a speech impediment, for
example). The state and position of Mercury should also guide you. A
heavily afflicted Mercury is a sure indication of a liar or a thief but =
it
is more likely to show a sinister mind if positioned in or ruling a =
'dark'
house or combust, than it would if it was elevated, well dignified or
receiving good aspect from the luminaries.

In horary the general tenor of the chart will show whether a business =
deal
is against someone's interest, but look at the relationship between 1st =
and
7th house ruler to show how well the two parties understand each other =
and
their intent towards each other. Also consider any afflictions to the =
3rd
house and its ruler though, as warnings of problems with verbal or =
written
contracts.

Hope this helps,

Best wishes,
Deb
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D
Editor: Traditional Astrologer Magazine
Ascella Publications

Thread:	Help
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:32:45 -0800

At 05:05 PM 3/13/97 +0000, sueward@easynet.co.uk wrote:
>>HELP!! Now I don't have Neptune to look at for swindles, frauds and
>>suspicious business deals - what planet do I use. ??
>
>I don't think that there is just one although Mercury is used a lot in
>business deals. So, an afflicted Mercury, particularly by Saturn, would
>usually show something dodgey going on. The south node can also show
>treachery or deceit. Hard aspects between Moon, Mercury and Saturn can show
>lies. Essential dignity, or lack of it, can indicate the substance of the
>deal or of the person involved.
>
>There are numerous factors that might be involved including weak/afflicted
>significators, I'm sorry that I can't offer you just a one-planet answer.

I would also look at Mercury, but I would add Mars conflicts to the mix.
Mars?Mercury can do jsut what first occurs to it - acting impetuously or in
anger without second thoughts or moral...

Julienne

Thread:	Julienne's Father
From:	GrizWiz@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:38:42 -0800

Status: U

Dear Julienne,

You wrote

<<I did ask Zip Dobyns, who didn't do a horary, but from transits and
progressions to my father's chart felt he would not come home, and
that he probably will die
very soon, around his birthday on April 1. He saw the doctor today, who
recertified him for Hospice - thinks he could die any day. He just keeps
going though, and I'll be here as long as it takes, I hope. He is sleeping
in his own bed tonight, for the first time since June 14th of last year.>>

My thoughts for you are tenderness for your impending loss. Your caring for
your father is so evident. Near my mother's death, three years ago this
month, I also faced many tough decisions. I was doing charts when I wasn't
at her side. Please know that my prayers are with you and your father.

Warmest regards,
Joanne Uppendahl

Thread:	Questions from concerned mother
From:	CURT MANWARING <chiron@servtech.com>	Date:	Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:59:24 -0800

Status: U

Hello,

I was recently asked a few questions by a client concerned about her
daughter's welfare. She asked (12:41 pm on Mar 13th in Syracuse, NY) Will
she get into NYU or Colombia University for Grad school? (By this question
she is not asking which but whether she will make it at all into either of
these so that she could stay in NYC which she would prefer to do). What are
her job prospects for now and after grad school? She is currently employed
as a graphics artist part time and her current employer wants her to stay on
full time but she would prefer to go back to school. (and) Will she ever
have a boyfriend and get married? The chart follows:

_________________________________________________________
|Taurus 20 | MC Ar 00 32 |Mercury 25 Pi 11 |
|Moon 26 Ta 02 | Saturn 8 Ar 06 |Sun 23 Pi 11 |
| | |Venus 18 Pi 11 |
| | |Pisces 7 06 |
| | | |
| | | |
|Gemini 24 | |Aquarius 14 13 |
_________________________________________________________
| |Mar 13 1997 |Jupiter 11 Aq 30 |
| |12:41 PM EST | |
| |Syracuse, NY USA | |
| | | |
|Asc 20 Can 47 | |Capricorn 20 47 |
| | | |
| | | |
_________________________________________________________
|Leo 14 13 | |Sagittarius 24 40 |
| | | |
| | | |
|Virgo 7 16 | | |
|Fortuna 23 Vi 37 | | |
|Mars 28 Vi 10 R | | |
|NN 28 Vi 44 | Libra 00 32 |Scorpio 20 16 |
_________________________________________________________

The only stricture here is Saturn ruling the 7th which is why I thought it a
good idea to e-mail this list. I am not thrilled about Neptune in the 7th
either and am trying to make sure everything is aboveboard, and that I
understand the question. Since the mother is signified by Cancer the 5th
(Scorpio) signifies her daughter. One very interesting thing is that her
daughter's natal Mars is at 28 Pisces 10 (exactly opposite transiting Mars
to the minute). Had she called a few days ago with these angles, Mars would
have been in considerably worse condition. As it is, Mars has some dignity
(mutual reception by triplicity with Venus, in own bounds and MR by face
with Mercury, however Mercury is so ill situated as to be of no help to Mars
and by Bonatti's rules would only be exchanging debility. Mars is also out
of sect but as well placed by sect as it can be in the daytime. I find it
interesting that Mars is the only personal planet below the horizon and
retrograde. This gives me the feeling that somehow her daughter is not
interested in the public aspirations her mother has for her or that somehow
her daughter is not taking an active part.

The first question is whether she will get into a grad school locally or if
she will have to travel to get into grad school. I am not exactly sure how
to look for this. If the question had been; (which is better?) I could have
looked to the 4th from the 5th and the 7th from the 5th and which of those
two houses is better dignified and whether the Moon applies to malefics or
benefics and/or to which does the Moon apply more strongly or to which place
her personal significator is better received. I suppose I have to treat
this as two questions in order to get an answer: Will she get into grad
school? And will she stay or leave? I looked to the lord of the 9th (from
the 5th) and I find Mars making a trine to the Moon with reception.
According to the Dorothean triplicity rulers Venus has dignity in the
Ascendant by both triplicity and bound whereas the Moon only by house.
Therefore Venus is Almuten. It makes little difference here because there
is mutual application of Mars (by trine) with the Moon, and Venus receives
the Moon. The Sun and Mercury interfere however with the direct translation
of light from Venus to Mars. It seems likely she will make it into at least
one grad school and since it is the Moon in the 7th doing the perfecting it
seems more likely that it is a place away from home. Now as to whether she
will stay or leave. The 4th from the 5th is Aquarius, her current location
(whole sign houses). Noting Jupiter and Uranus there it seems likely that
there will be a change/expansion in her environment. The lord of her 4th
(Saturn) has no relationship to Mars which is in aversion so I suspect it is
rather likely she will leave. Checking with the 4th from her current place
which is Taurus (the place where she would move to if moving) I find Mars
making an opposition with Venus with reception in eachother's triplicity.
Also the exaltation lord (the Moon) ruling this place is applying to a trine
of Mars with reception, signifying some connection between this outside
location and her daughter. I am not entirely comfortable with this reading.
I am fairly certain due to the Sun's and Mercury's position of interference
as well as the Retrogradation of Mars, that there is some unfinished
business to attend to before anything can perfect, indicated by the houses
in which they rule.

As to her job prospects, I feel again that I have to divide it between now
and her post doctorate situation. Her current job would be signified by
Aries, 6th from the 5th. Saturn therein explains her reluctance to stay
with her current employer. I would say that because Mars is in aversion to
this place that it is unlikely she will stay there. Leo represents her
ultimate career (10th from 5th) and Mars opposes the Sun, possibly either a
change in direction for her career or difficult relations with a boss. The
opposition does not bring a satisfactory perfection to the matter. I am
inclined to say that she should change her approach to her career in some
significant way but to avoid making any decisions until Mars goes direct.

As to the question of marriage, Mars signifies her and Taurus signifies her
marriage partner. I would use both Venus and the Moon, here the Moon helps
considerably being in trine to Mars, but I suspect marriage is not uppermost
in her daughter's mind. The Moon signifies her mother and so could
represent her wishes for her daughter and her involvement in any situation
leading to marriage.

If anyone has any suggestions as to where possible flaws in my logic may
lie, please let me know, I meet with the client on Monday.

Thanks,
Curt Manwaring

Thread:	Julienne's *%$# horary.
From:	JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net>	Date:	Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:29:46 -0800

Status: U

At 03:21 AM 3/13/97 +0000, Julienne wrote:
>At 05:34 PM 3/12/97 +0000, Deborah Houlding wrote:
>
>>I've come across situations before where Saturn has ruled the 7th and been
>>afflicted in the 10th, and where the Moon moves on to contact that Saturn
>>-- and where I've seen it in operation it has led to a lot of detrimental
>>publicity where horary, or the astrologer's judgement has been called into
>>question -- just as we are warned against by the traditional aphorisms.

There seem to be more problems discussing this chart than all the others
I've seen on this list combined!

The questioner recalls only the negative answers, though a positive one is
given. There is some discussion about whether the question was phrased well
enough to be understood, and even some difference of opinion as to how the
question was phrased. Finally, there seems to be some concern about whether
the horary practitioner should go back and see what made a particular chart
work or not work. So I wonder:

Should this chart have been read?

Given that the Saturn situation suggests trouble for the astrologer, does
this mean that it will be a failure, or that it will be correct but poorly
received? In such a case, what will the prudent astrologer do?

Was the question phrased properly?

What should the astrologer do to make sure that he or she understands the
question? The skills we need as astrologers are not just technical; people
skills are important too. Perhaps we expect more of each other than of lay
clients, but we are human beings who have difficult times too, and it seems
fair to give each other the consideration we give to a client. If the
questioner is upset, we can guess that the question may need further
clarification and act accordingly. "Measure twice, cut once."

Should we go back to questions which did not "pan out" and figure out what
the problem was?

I don't see why not, provided it's not just flogging a dead horse. After
all, one of the precepts of this list is to discuss real cases, not just
theory. Practice makes perfect (not that I expect horary to be perfect) and
practice in every other serious endeavor I have been involved in includes
making mistakes and analyzing them in order to avoid them again. Not
focusing on them extensively, but knowing they are there and finding the
other path that walks you around them. Julienne said:

>I gather no one liked my idea of testing on the List? Forget about my
>question, but share our interpretations on other horaries, and then look at
>what went right or wrong?

I see nothing wrong with doing this, but I'm open to suggestions as to why
this would be a problem. Obviously questions have to be raised with
respect, and taken with grace, or riot could ensue! Which I am not at all
interested in watching, let alone participating in.

>I'm sorry if I've upset some people, but I think we astrologers, just as any
>professionals, have to be self-policing. Of course, other professionals
>don't like it any more than we do.:)

Given that those who do not "police" or regulate or otherwise take
themselves in hand find themselves taken in hand by others, I much prefer
that we do it ourselves. Jury of our peers and all that. But more
important, it would seem like a good idea to find out what we are doing
right, and what we might do better at, without feeling accused or accusing.
I hope we can do that here.

-JoAnne

JoAnne Schmitz
jschmitz@qis.net

Thread:	Julienne's *%$# horary.
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Fri, 14 Mar 1997 01:16:23 -0800

Status: U

Hi Julienne, I, for one, do agree with the idea of examining charts after the
event, be they right or wrong - but they do need to have been initially judged
before the event to be of any use in such a forum.

I never fail to be impressed by Deb's knowledge, and this case, plus the other
recent posting on a Neptune replacement, is no exception. I may differ with
you, Deb, in various aspects of this particular situation, but I hold your
depth of knowledge and awareness of Horary in the highest regard - it truly
is impressive and I find it extremely inspirational as well as informative.
Thanks very much.

Regards

Angela

Thread:	Help
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:05:54 -0800

>HELP!! Now I don't have Neptune to look at for swindles, frauds and
>suspicious business deals - what planet do I use. ??

I don't think that there is just one although Mercury is used a lot in
business deals. So, an afflicted Mercury, particularly by Saturn, would
usually show something dodgey going on. The south node can also show
treachery or deceit. Hard aspects between Moon, Mercury and Saturn can show
lies. Essential dignity, or lack of it, can indicate the substance of the
deal or of the person involved.

There are numerous factors that might be involved including weak/afflicted
significators, I'm sorry that I can't offer you just a one-planet answer.

Regards

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Julienne's horary.
From:	Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com>	Date:	Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:42:00 -0800

Hi Julienne

Thanks for your comments. I'd like to assure you that I don't think you
upset anyone with your questions and comments and certainly not me. Your
presumption that I thought you were 'attacking horary' is quite wrong
though. I have never thought that, and I don't view debates on this list
as attacks. We all learn from the interaction of our discussions and your
horary, and the fact that it went wrong, can turn out to be a valuable
experience for all of us. I would like to put right any misinterpretation
of my meaning and intent though, especially where you say:

>I hear you saying that we did get it right, and I guess
the suggestion then is that I'm just being querrulous or troublemaking.

If you read my responses from a detached position, I'm sure you'll see
that's not what I said, thought, or intended to imply. If I had viewed
your points as troublemaking or anything other than 'questioning' in
nature, I wouldn't have replied to them. Instead I see you philosophising
about the nature of horary, which you admit is new to you, and on this
level you have pushed out questions that deserve a response. So let's just
take it as read that no-one is suggesting that you did anything wrong and
it is simply the use of horary that we are discussing here.

> I can't believe a chart is automatically doomed to be a failure for an
astrologer.

----- Take it from me, some are doomed to be a failure if judgement is
rushed without due consideration to the issues at hand. And with some, we
will get the judgement right and bring heaps of trouble on our own heads
through the involvement. Horary warns against all this through the
'considerations before judgement'. One of the main considerations is an
affliction to the 7th house ruler, which shows the astrologer's judgement
is impaired in some way. Another is an afflicted Saturn in the 10th house,
and especially if Saturn rules the 7th and the Moon makes contact to it,
this brings public discredit to the astrologer. The chart cast for your
horary is a perfect illustration of this and if we bear in mind that it had
the Moon on the Midheaven applying directly to the Sun on an angle, it
becomes apparent why this 'fallen horary' has attracted so much attention
in a public arena. The lights on angles bring matters out into the open
and the Moon on the 10th makes them public. The afflicted Saturn in the
10th means that what attracts the attention is the astrologer's 'flawed'
judgement.

One thing we should bear in mind is that Saturn is about bearing
responsibilty as well as getting things wrong. To me, this consideration
is a warning that the responsibilities of our judgement come back to us,
and we therefore have to take great care to act with the utmost
responsibility in ensuring that we understand the situation properly and
give appropriate advise. There is a gravity to the situation that the
astrologer may not be aware of.

Where I say that I don't believe an email forum like this is the right
place to try to deal with such complicated emotional issues, you say:

>But I didn't ask for all the complicated emotional issues to be dealt
with. Those I've been working on in other ways.

---- What you probably don't realise about horary is that it gets to the
very heart of a situation, whether you want it to or not. There is a
common misconception that horary is the materialistic, mundane, trivial,
'fortune telling' branch of astrology, where in fact, when handled
properly, it is the most spiritual and profound of all branches. It can
also be used for quick, simple answers to uncomplicated mundane issues, but
your situation was neither uncomplicated nor devoid of emotional
complexity. Although we look at a horary to answer a specific question, the
whole backdrop of personalities and events surrounding the querent's
situation is revealed in the symbolism of the chart. As I said before
horary doesn't tell us what we 'want' to know, it tells us what we 'need'
to know.

Best wishes,
Deborah
==============================
Editor: Traditional Astrologer Magazine
Ascella Publications

Thread:	Help
From:	Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com>	Date:	Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:57:57 -0800

Hi Anne,

You write:

>HELP!! Now I don't have Neptune to look at for swindles, frauds and
suspicious business deals - what planet do I use. ??

--- Look for an afflicted Mercury. If its debilitated and afflicted by a
bad aspect to the malefics it corrupts communication and understanding. In
a birth chart Mercury square Saturn can be a sign of a liar, the square to
Mars can show exaggeration, etc. But you need to look at the overall
theme. If Saturn is dignified it is likely to show a reserved speaker, but
if it is peregrine and poorly dignified it tends to show corruption, or an
affliction to the mind or speech (it can show a speech impediment, for
example). The state and position of Mercury should also guide you. A
heavily afflicted Mercury is a sure indication of a liar or a thief but it
is more likely to show a sinister mind if positioned in or ruling a 'dark'
house or combust, than it would if it was elevated, well dignified or
receiving good aspect from the luminaries.

In horary the general tenor of the chart will show whether a business deal
is against someone's interest, but look at the relationship between 1st and
7th house ruler to show how well the two parties understand each other and
their intent towards each other. Also consider any afflictions to the 3rd
house and its ruler though, as warnings of problems with verbal or written
contracts.

Hope this helps,

Best wishes,
Deb
============================
Editor: Traditional Astrologer Magazine
Ascella Publications

Thread:	Open and closed questions in horary
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Thu, 13 Mar 1997 05:03:51 -0800

Hi Pat, nice interpretation.

Cld I query something which has begun to lead into mental stupor and
confusion?! You say the triplicity was the same between Lord of the hour,
Mars, and Lord of the Ascendant, Jupiter; both occupying the Air triplicity. I
am now wondering if I have misunderstood the Triplicity ruling; I thought that
the hour ruler and ruler of the Ascendant, or the Ascendant itself, needed to
be OF the same triplicity, not occupying the same sign trip. Or, alternatively,
ruler of the hour ruling the triplicity of the Asc or Asc ruler. Furthermore,
I had taken it to mean the triplicity of the planet, rather than the
triplicity of the sign, if you follow me. This is difficult to elucidate -
using your chart, Mars is in Libra, it is a nightime question, therefore,
Mercury rules the triplicity, ergo, Mars is in Mercury's trip. Jupiter is in
Aquarius, the nightime triplicity ruler of Aquarius also being Mercury.
Consequently, they are both in Mercury's triplicity, but neither one is in the
other's; they are, I suppose, similar in nature, but not identical, Jupiter
being hot and moist, Mars being hot and dry, would this count, do you think?

I have never associated the triplicity purely by way of sign placement to
count for radicality. Your chart obviously worked out extremely well, whereas I
would have judged it not to be radical, so, I think I stand corrected.

Clarification anyone .............. please.

Many thanks

Confused

Angela

Thread:	Computer crash
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Thu, 13 Mar 1997 02:58:14 -0800

Hi Deb,

Thanks for your reply.

In answer to your question "If this thread is going to continue, shall we
re-name it or tag it onto the 'questions' thread?" - I think we've probably
exhausted the subject now, but I've enjoyed the discussion with you
very much indeed. Many thanks.

Keep well,

Angela

Thread:	Joanne's property question
From:	JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net>	Date:	Wed, 12 Mar 1997 20:12:29 -0800

At 02:50 AM 3/12/97 GMT, you wrote:
>Dear Joanne,
>
>I am interested to look at your questoin chart "Can we get this house?" but
>you don't appear to have put the actual date on which you asked the question
>and you have written 76@37 for the longitude. Could you clarify and update
>on the situation, if possible, please?

Oops! It is 76W37. And the date was March 8, 1997.

We ended up signing the lease at approximately 4:28pm EST, March 10, 1997,
when Saturn was precisely trine my Sun (my birth data: 11/30/1959, 12:26 pm
EST, same location as house, Baltimore MD). The meeting time for signing
the lease was originally to be about 7pm but the husband half of the couple
wanted to do it earlier.

I'm still concerned about affording the place even though we have signed the
lease, so the question is still "outstanding." Thanks for your interest.

-JoAnne

JoAnne Schmitz
jschmitz@qis.net

Thread:	Julienne's *%$# horary.
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:31:17 -0800

At 05:34 PM 3/12/97 +0000, Deborah Houlding wrote:

>Hi Angela,
>
>I just read your latest comments on 'why the chart went wrong'. I know
>that we don't have a fundamental disagreement over this but some of your
>comments still don't sit right with me and I think that there is a valuable
>point that you are missing.

>I've come across situations before where Saturn has ruled the 7th and been
>afflicted in the 10th, and where the Moon moves on to contact that Saturn
>-- and where I've seen it in operation it has led to a lot of detrimental
>publicity where horary, or the astrologer's judgement has been called into
>question -- just as we are warned against by the traditional aphorisms.
>Pat Harris will be able to tell you about her experiences where a horary
>she published with this kind of warning in it led to a great deal of public
>distress and aggravation for her. The question is 'why'? I don't think
>that the universe acts out of spite to trip us up, but rather that it is
>displaying an indication that something is not right somewhere along the
>line which will lead the astrologer to fail. The only thing I can suggest
>is that the question asked about a cloudy matter where moral issues were
>tangled up with an assesment of what was likely to happen.

Hi Deb,

I get the feeling that you think I was attacking horary. I'm sorry if it
seemed that way, but after being an astrologer for 35 years, and in the
company of astrologers here, I think it is important to examine when we
don't get it right. I hear you saying that we did get it right, and I guess
the suggestion then is that I'm just being querrulous or troublemaking. I
don't think it helps to personalize it, Deb, and I'm sorry if I lead you to
that mistaken conclusion.

That said, I just can't agree with your statement that "something is not
right somewhere along the line which will lead the astrologer to fail." That
just doesn't make any sense. If horary works, then that should also have
been evident to the astrologers looking at the chart. I can't believe a
chart is automatically doomed to bea failure for an astrologer.

I also don't believe the universe acts out of spite - I think it just rolls
along without any attention to you or me. But I don't think my question was
about a cloudy matter at all. Further, moral issues are continually a part
of any judgements we make, not only in horary but in all astrology. You've
mentioned emotionaland moral issues as though such aspects somehow
disqualify considerations, and I just can't accept this. I'm open to your
showing me, but it would go against most of my experience.

>> I do feel her question was fair and clear as to what was at issue and
>what she needed to
>know, the only thing which was not apparent (in her question, that is) was
>the
>extent of how horrendous her situation actually was and, seemingly, still
>is.
>
>----- We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think that even
>now that question is a clear one, certainly it wouldn't be to me because
>the matter is so complex. If Julienne had come to see you, or telephoned
>you to ask for a consultation, would you have taken that question without
>spending considerable time discussing what was involved, the part her
>brothers were playing -- and why? -- what the doctors thought, why she
>wanted to bring her father home, etc., etc.? Only when there is a complete
>understanding of the situation and what it is that the querent needs to
>know are we really equipped to attempt to bring some resolution through
>horary.

But you all could have asked me those questions if you had wanted to.

>>I also believe that we have to be honest enough to admit that sometimes,
>
>even oft times, we get it wrong - but there are also times, even oft times,
>
>when we get it right.

>----- Whilst I admire your willingness to accept personal responsibility,
>it doesn't help if the astrologer says 'its just one of those things,
>sometimes I get it right and sometimes I get it wrong' because this
>undervalues the true depth of horary, in that the astrologer may have got
>it wrong, but there was a reason, and the chart reflected this and tried to
>warn of it. If we are to learn for the future we need to look back at the
>chart and use it as a guide to what went wrong. Also Angela, you were not
>the only astrologer to attempt a judgement on this chart, there was a
>collective response and in the main it attempted to answer the question
>'SHOULD I bring father home?' -- but none of us on this email list could
>have known enough about the situation to be able to offer a valuable or
>inspired judgement.

Why do you feel you have to know so much to be able to answer a horary? Why,
for instance, do you need to know the doctor's opinion?

And why isn't it legitimate that sometimes we get it right and sometimes we
get it wrong, as in any field, and then we go back and look at why? If you
really believe the fault lay in the question here, Deb, then how would you
have reframed it?

>>The question was asked at a time of great need and emotion and we should
>have
>been able to help...... I always thought the intensity of the emotion and
>need were of equal importance in imprinting itself on the cosmic help-line.
>
>----- From the little I know of Julienne's situation, there has been a
>great deal of intense emotion and need for a considerable time. If anyone
>was going to try to use horary sincerely to try to help her then it would
>have been better for them to have spent some time exploring her situation
>and giving her some valuable, well thought-out advice, even if this meant
>delaying judgement for days or weeks. What's the point of rushing in if
>the response is not right?

Well, Deb, my father is on Hospice, which means the doctor thinks he has six
months or less to live, and he has been on it for 8 months already, which
means he is on borrowed time. There was the possibility my father didn't
HAVE weeks. Family situations have always been around for the life of any
family, but this situation is one that I only started to become aware of
about a year and a half ago, and not really aware until last September. As
to the issue of my brothers not letting my father come home to his own home,
that I did NOT know until after my mother died in January. Maybe I should
have known, but I suppose I didn't look as clearly at what was happening
with my brothers as I might have. Part of that was just disbelief - I
couldn't believe it was happening, and thought it would all reverse at some
point. You know more about it than anyone else on the List, Deb, (although I
am not sure of everyone on the List...I can think of one other person who
knew something of it all last September), as I discussed it with you last
year when it started to really hit me.

But, as you say, astrologers on the Lilly List could have delayed their
answer if they had wanted to, but they didn't.

>Because her situation is not a trivial one, it seems even more
>innapropriate to try to deal with it in a trivial manner. I'm sorry but I
>just don't believe that an email forum like this is the right place to try
>to deal with such complicated emotional issues.

But I didn't ask for all the complicated emotional issues to be dealt with.
Those I've been working on in other ways.

>If this thread is going to continue, shall we at least re-name it or tag it
>onto the 'questions' thread? I hope that Pamela can see that I do believe
>there is more to horary then just trying to deal with straight-forward
>predictions; and although I am sure that there is no issue that horary
>cannot deal with, that does not mean it can be used to answer any
>indiscriminate question without due consideration of its worth and value to
>the querent.

Here I agree with you - I also believe that there must be more to horary
that just straight predictive yes/no answers, but at the same time I am not
sure that the rules have to be as rigid as they seem to be, and nor am I
sure that there is always only one interpretation possible.

I'm here to learn _ I don't know as much as you, Deb, about the classical
rules for horary, but one of the ways I learn is by testing those who use
it. The second way is to learn it myself and then test myself. This was not
a purely acadmeic moment, however, as I was so overwhelmed I asked the
question on here, which you also consdier inappropriate. I wonder if part of
the problem is also that it's such a nasty question - or at least the
implications behind it are? Who wants to think things like this happen,
especially to people in our own lives. I nearly wrote to you privately, Deb,
but didn't want to lump you with it. I didn't want to ask my vclose friend
astrologers, because they might not have been objective. I did ask Zip
Dobyns, who didn't do a horary, but from transits and progressions to my
father's chart felt he would not come home, and that he probably will die
very soon, around his birthday on April 1. He saw the doctor today, who
recertified him for Hospice - thinks he could die any day. He just keeps
going though, and I'll be here as long as it takes, I hope. He is sleeping
in his own bed tonight, for the first time since June 14th of last year.

I gather no one liked my idea of testing on the List? Forget about my
question, but share our interpretations on other horaries, and then look at
what went right or wrong?

I'm sorry if I've upset some people, but I think we astrologers, just as any
professionals, have to be self-policing. Of course, other professionals
don't like it any more than we do.:)

Love,

Julienne

Thread:	Computer crash
From:	Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com>	Date:	Wed, 12 Mar 1997 09:58:44 -0800

Dear Carol, I tried to post this to the list but I'm not sure if its been
received so maybe I got the address wrong (again!). If so can you forward
it for me this time?

--------------------------------

Hi Angela,

I just read your latest comments on 'why the chart went wrong'. I know
that we don't have a fundamental disagreement over this but some of your
comments still don't sit right with me and I think that there is a valuable
point that you are missing. You write:

>I do uphold Horary and its practise, and everyone will practise in a way
which
works for them - that is how it should be - but no-one is infallible, and
even
if Horary is, it's practitioners (however experienced and knowledgeable)

certainly are not. People do get it wrong, and sometimes it isn't because
the
question was in error, but the astrologer was. Reading Julienne's recent

posting, I obviously got some details wrong in my interpretation; there are

various reasons I could attribute that to, but, at the end of the day, I

didn't get it right - I have to take that on the chin and not subscribe it
to
the fact that her question was at fault - it wasn't, I was.

---- That was the point that I was trying to make, that the astrologer was
unable to make an accurate, incisive judgement because his/her
understanding of the situation was not fully informed. This was partly
because of the way that the question was phrased, and my argument is that
the astrologer should have probed it more deeply, but no-one is
apportioning blame. All I am trying to get across is that the horary was
not wrong or ineffectual, but that it accurately described the situation
that occured, even to the point of indicating that the astrologer's
judgement would not please the querent.

I've come across situations before where Saturn has ruled the 7th and been
afflicted in the 10th, and where the Moon moves on to contact that Saturn
-- and where I've seen it in operation it has led to a lot of detrimental
publicity where horary, or the astrologer's judgement has been called into
question -- just as we are warned against by the traditional aphorisms.
Pat Harris will be able to tell you about her experiences where a horary
she published with this kind of warning in it led to a great deal of public
distress and aggravation for her. The question is 'why'? I don't think
that the universe acts out of spite to trip us up, but rather that it is
displaying an indication that something is not right somewhere along the
line which will lead the astrologer to fail. The only thing I can suggest
is that the question asked about a cloudy matter where moral issues were
tangled up with an assesment of what was likely to happen.

> I do feel her question was fair and clear as to what was at issue and
what she needed to
know, the only thing which was not apparent (in her question, that is) was
the
extent of how horrendous her situation actually was and, seemingly, still
is.

----- We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think that even
now that question is a clear one, certainly it wouldn't be to me because
the matter is so complex. If Julienne had come to see you, or telephoned
you to ask for a consultation, would you have taken that question without
spending considerable time discussing what was involved, the part her
brothers were playing -- and why? -- what the doctors thought, why she
wanted to bring her father home, etc., etc.? Only when there is a complete
understanding of the situation and what it is that the querent needs to
know are we really equipped to attempt to bring some resolution through
horary. And note I use the words 'needs to know' because what the querent
'wants' to know is not always the same; and yet the horary will tell them
what they need to know, not what they want to know. If the two are not the
same then the chart will come up with some kind of warning or consideration
before judgement to indictate this, and again we'll have another chart that
is probably going to be interpreted wrongly, but which is highly
illuminating in hindsight.

> Nothing is foolproof because it is reliant upon humanbeings to interplay
and
we are not computers (and even computers throw wobblies!!).

------ Please note the header for this thread!! I read everything
symbolically so to me this is suggesting a conflict of perspectives and
ideas across a computer generated forum. However, although we mortals are
subject to error the universe is a greater intelligence and usually gets it
right. If we paid more attention to what it is saying to us, we wouldn't
need to demand it to answer so many questions. It gives us lots of
indications and pauses for thought, primarily in the considerations before
judgement, which should never be used to encourage us to turn away from a
situation, but always to increase our understanding of it.

>I also believe that we have to be honest enough to admit that sometimes,

even oft times, we get it wrong - but there are also times, even oft times,

when we get it right.

----- Whilst I admire your willingness to accept personal responsibility,
it doesn't help if the astrologer says 'its just one of those things,
sometimes I get it right and sometimes I get it wrong' because this
undervalues the true depth of horary, in that the astrologer may have got
it wrong, but there was a reason, and the chart reflected this and tried to
warn of it. If we are to learn for the future we need to look back at the
chart and use it as a guide to what went wrong. Also Angela, you were not
the only astrologer to attempt a judgement on this chart, there was a
collective response and in the main it attempted to answer the question
'SHOULD I bring father home?' -- but none of us on this email list could
have known enough about the situation to be able to offer a valuable or
inspired judgement.

>The question was asked at a time of great need and emotion and we should
have
been able to help...... I always thought the intensity of the emotion and
need were of equal importance in imprinting itself on the cosmic help-line.

----- From the little I know of Julienne's situation, there has been a
great deal of intense emotion and need for a considerable time. If anyone
was going to try to use horary sincerely to try to help her then it would
have been better for them to have spent some time exploring her situation
and giving her some valuable, well thought-out advice, even if this meant
delaying judgement for days or weeks. What's the point of rushing in if
the response is not right?

Because her situation is not a trivial one, it seems even more
innapropriate to try to deal with it in a trivial manner. I'm sorry but I
just don't believe that an email forum like this is the right place to try
to deal with such complicated emotional issues.

If this thread is going to continue, shall we at least re-name it or tag it
onto the 'questions' thread? I hope that Pamela can see that I do believe
there is more to horary then just trying to deal with straight-forward
predictions; and although I am sure that there is no issue that horary
cannot deal with, that does not mean it can be used to answer any
indiscriminate question without due consideration of its worth and value to
the querent.

Best wishes,
Deb
===================================
Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com
Editor: Traditional Astrologer Magazine
Ascella Publications

Thread:	Help
From:	pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)	Date:	Wed, 12 Mar 1997 01:15:35 -0800

>To: Anne Fryer <afryer@light.iinet.net.au>
>From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
>Subject: Re: Help
>
>Anne,
>
> I do not understand why you - "do not have Neptune for swindles,
frauds and
>>suspicious business deals - what planet do I use. ??" - perhaps you
would kindly clarify this statement ?
>
> Anyhow, have you thought of Pluto for underground, criminal
activities. Hidden agendas, etc. Saturn to Mercury for delayed info',
Saturn to Venus for non achievable returns and so forth.....
>>
>>Patricia
>>
>>
>>
>

Thread:	Joanne's property question
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:50:53 -0800

Dear Joanne,

I am interested to look at your questoin chart "Can we get this house?" but
you don't appear to have put the actual date on which you asked the question
and you have written 76@37 for the longitude. Could you clarify and update
on the situation, if possible, please?

Best wishes,

Pat.

Thread:	Help
From:	Anne Fryer <afryer@light.iinet.net.au>	Date:	Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:38:11 -0800

HELP!! Now I don't have Neptune to look at for swindles, frauds and
suspicious business deals - what planet do I use. ??

Many thanks.

Thread:	Computer crash
From:	RG4invirgo@aol.com	Date:	Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:07:11 -0800

In henry Coley's book ther is a book written by Lilly called Annus
Tenebrofus, I was wondering if anyone has a copy or access to microfilm at
the London Library I'd pay for the charge of copy please let me know thanks
RG

Thread:	Open and closed questions in horary
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:37:24 -0800

Dear Patricia,

Some answers which aren't yes or no can be quite empowering in a very
practical and useful way.

I was writing up some social science research a week ago and couldn't find
an important research paper in amongst my other papers (about fifty of them)
where I believed it oought to have been. I'd put these papers away a year
ago, thinking I wouldn't have to use them again but, of course, in the
event, I did. Anyway, I spent about three hours searching for this paper
until it dawned on me that I could actually ask where it was.

I asked: "Where is the Norton paper?" 7.3.1997 2 10 a.m.(!) GMT 51n04 1w19
(Twyford, England).

At the tme, I was in our sitting room.

The chart gave a void of course moon but according to rule in Lilly p121, it
was radical. Lord of the hour qas Mars and Lord of the Ascendant was
Jupiter both occupying the Air triplicity.

Lord of the 2nd is Saturn which is in Aries an eastern sighn (Lilly p352)
Aries itself signifies ceilings (!) (Lilly p93). However, as the ruler of
the 2nd and the ruler of the 4th aren't in the same sign, one should,
apparently, just take the ruler of the 4th for describing where a lost or
mislaid thing is (Lilly p352). Ruler of 4th is Mars. Mars is in Libra
which is a moveable sign indicating that the paper was in a chamber above
another e.g. an upper room. However, ruler of 4th Mars was in Libra
denoting west, not east. Mars itself would denote a place where fire is
used. It is in the 9th house which is associated with books and learning.
Mars is also R. and this can be an indicator of a lost thing returning to
its owner (Lilly p467).

If I were to take the ruler of the 2nd, the lost possession rather than the
mislaid possession, that would be Saturn signifying a dark place in the
house, East because it is in Aries and in a place of epistles and letters
(Saturn in 3rd) near a ceiling (Saturn in Aries).

The Moon as an added descriptor, indicates that the paper is east - Moon
oriental of the Sun (rising before the sun) (Lilly p320). Lord of the
Moon's house is Saturn which is in Aries showing a place which is inhabited
by small beasts. Venus, Lady of Moon's terms is in the 3rd in Pisces -
common and cadent - the goods are in a shared common (Lilly p353 lst para.)
The Moon being void of course could, in this question, be indicating that
there was nothing to worry about and that I would find it.

I found the Norton paper because the above forced me to look again in a
place I had dismissed as already having been thoroughly searched.

In the bedroom above the sitting room, which I share with my husband and our
three cats, on the eastern wall, near a radiator, on the floor (which is, of
course, the sitting room ceiling) under a pair of my black jeans (okay, I'm
untidy) was another pile of files relating to my research that I had not
seen. I keep various piles of files relating to different research in a
particular area of the bedroom floor where these files were (no more shelf
room or cupboard space left in the house!). So I got out the top file
marked "papers read" but, by this time, it was getting on for 3 a.m. and my
husband was asleep in bed (could Venus have indicated shared bedroom rather
than shared common - Venus rules beds) so I left the file (the colour of
which was blue) until the following day. Sure enough, after I had searched
through it, I found the paper, almost at the bottom of the pile, of course!

So, that was very helpful and I wish I had asked the question three hours
earlier.

It is recommended by some horary practitioners that the 4th should be used
for mislaid and the 2nd for lost but sometimes it is hard to judge which
applies. I hadn't actually mislaid the paper, so much as forgotten where I
had carefully stashed it. Lilly says look at both if the rulers of both are
in one sign (p352). On balance, the 4th ruler seems to be the more
applicable, here, if the Moon is the key indicator of direction.

Pat.

Thread:	A question about questions
From:	"Nicholas Grier" <n.grier@napier.ac.uk>	Date:	Mon, 10 Mar 1997 02:31:21 -0800

Patricia,
I think you raise a very interesting point, but it seems to me that
what horary can be very good at is giving you information that you
could not possible know otherwise, and that skill should not be
ignored or disregarded. For example, I once did a horary for a person
who wanted to know if her offer for a house would be successful. I
successfully indicated that it would be. She wanted to know whether or
not she had made an acceptable offer. She wasn't interested in
philosophic niceties, or taking responsibility for her life. HAd she
wanted to know that sort of thing, she could have asked "Ought to put
in an offer for this house ?"

So it seems to me that you get in horary what you ask for. The clearer
and more specific the question, the clearer and more specific the
answer. Moral or metaphysical questions have their place as well, and
are well worth answering, but since there are few things cut and dried
in morals or metaphysics, it not surprising that astrological answers
to such questions are not always easy to understand.

Nicholas

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: A question about questions
Author: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> at internet-gateway
Date: 10/03/97 03:38

>Message was resent -- Original recipients were:
To:
william_lilly@halcyon.com-------------------------------------------------------
------------------------
Hi All Horary Astrologers,

I've be reading with interest the debate regarding questions.
Recent postings lead me to think that most querents are asking for a `yes'
or `no' answer. In other words the debate seems to be more about closed
ended questions rather than open ended ones such as you would get with
`what' `why' `how'.

Is this a limitation of horary or is just the way the debate has
gone? Surely it would be more empowering for the client if horary can
answer open ended questions? Astrology as I know it is about getting the
client to think as well as take responsibiliy for the outcome - not just the
astrologer.

Patricia

Thread:	Computer crash
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Mon, 10 Mar 1997 04:26:45 -0800

Hi Deb, thanks for your reply. Truly, I do agree with you; it is most
essential that a thorough understanding is achieved of any question, and, yes,
it is the hardest part of horary to have to tell a client that things are not
going to pan out quite as 'hunkey-dorey' as they anticipate; this in itself is
reason enough to understand the question fully. However, I think that
sometimes there is a danger of using the 'question' as something of a hat-peg
to hang an inaccurate interpretation on. Sometimes it is quite obvious when a
question is totally 'naff' either in its subject matter or manner of enquiry.
Sue's example of "Should I increase my (insurance) premiums" being a good one;
I think anyone would have run a mile from that and certainly directed it
straight back to the querent; there are also many times when some
clarification is needed as to exactly what a querent is trying to discover;
but there are times when it is quite obvious what a person is asking and needs
to know, regardless of their exact phraseology, and sometimes we get it wrong.
It's as simple as that.

I do uphold Horary and its practise, and everyone will practise in a way which
works for them - that is how it should be - but no-one is infallible, and even
if Horary is, it's practitioners (however experienced and knowledgeable)
certainly are not. People do get it wrong, and sometimes it isn't because the
question was in error, but the astrologer was. Reading Julienne's recent
posting, I obviously got some details wrong in my interpretation; there are
various reasons I could attribute that to, but, at the end of the day, I
didn't get it right - I have to take that on the chin and not subscribe it to
the fact that her question was at fault - it wasn't, I was. I do feel her
question was fair and clear as to what was at issue and what she needed to
know, the only thing which was not apparent (in her question, that is) was the
extent of how horrendous her situation actually was and, seemingly, still is.

I can only apologise to Julienne, but I don't think it should be taken as
indicative of Horary as whole when interpretations are not 100% accurate.

Nothing is foolproof because it is reliant upon humanbeings to interplay and
we are not computers (and even computers throw wobblies!!). To assume
something or someone is going to get it all right, all the time is as gross an
error as total condemnation; and anyone who assumes their own infallibility is
even more in the dark. I do believe in astrology and I do believe in Horary,
but I also believe that we have to be honest enough to admit that sometimes,
even oft times, we get it wrong - but there are also times, even oft times,
when we get it right.

We are happy to take the congrats when we're right, we need to be able to take
the punishment when wrong, even Lilly wasn't right all the time - in the main,
we only get to read of his successes. Yes, I agree that some questions are
superfluous; some are inconsequential; and some are just too fogged, and the
astrologer has every right, indeed a bounden duty, to insist on clarification
before proceeding - but I do not agree that this was one of those instances.
The question was asked at a time of great need and emotion and we should have
been able to help, the fact that we couldn't come up with the goods MAY be in
part attributable to the method of communication, but that, I feel, is the
only gleaning of a possible reason. I am very sorry that there was no clear
cut help or direction for Julienne, she was obviously at a time when it was
greatly needed, as indeed is very often the case, unfortunately, it is usually
a time when people have more to think about than how clear they are
elucidating their circumstances - I always thought the intensity of the
emotion and need were of equal importance in imprinting itself on the cosmic
help-line.

Having said all of that Deb, I do agree with you in essence!!

Keep well

Regards

Angela

Thread:	House horary and electional
From:	JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net>	Date:	Sun, 9 Mar 1997 09:22:17 -0800

Status: U

Hi all,

Sorry to be so long-winded, but I do want everyone to know just what the
situation is to make the question make sense. It's sort of time sensitive,
so if someone can look at it soon I'd be extremely grateful.

My boyfriend Phil and I (we've been living together for about 7-8 years)
went to look at a house for rent Saturday. It was not what we wanted, but
since the weather was nice we went walking around, peeking into windows when
we could, looking down alleys to see how big the houses for sale are.
Nothing looked that great, kind of fixer-upper heaven I guess but we're
looking for something we could actually move into. One of the problems with
the current place is that it was dirty when we moved in and it's just
depressing, has never looked any good, decorated totally against our taste
(cheap country-theme gewgaws).

Then Phil said, let's hop back in the car and check out the other side of
the neighborhood. We had been concentrating on the east side but the west
side is just as good, and I had suggested we look at it more a week or so
earlier. It's a little more gentrified.

We drove up one of the streets and noticed a smiling lady on the steps of a
nice big house. There was a sign in the window, OPEN, house for rent! We
quickly turned around and parked and walked on up.

It has everything we want. They are even putting a new dishwasher in. And
the lady said she liked us. All the way home I was thinking, can we do
this? Do we have the finances? And for an hour and a half I scrambled
around with my checkbook calculating, thinking, hoping, figuring what it
would take. And still not knowing, since the rent is more than we pay now,
enough more to think, if not worry about. Typically I have a fair idea but
not an exact one about our budgetary situation.

I asked the question, can we do this? Can we get this house? So I did a
horary for the question, at 5:38pm EST, 76@37, 39N17. (Of course you might
be casting your own chart for the time you understand the question).

Ascendant 13 Vir 34. Mars and North Node conjunct in the last degree of
Virgo in the first house (so no wonder the impetuousness). Fourth house
cusp of the house itself is 11 Sag 07; my Jupiter is 11 Sag 45, so it's an
expansion, and you bet I could expand into this! Packed 7th house (the
couple who own it, I would guess?) with Sun/Moon about to make that eclipse
thing.

The positive thing I see is that the ruler of the Ascendant (Mercury in
Pisces in the 7th) is disposited by the ruler of the 4th house (the house)
(Jupiter in Aquarius in the 5th). But this may also say, we are moving but
the house is not moving (in a succedent house).

On the negative side, Mercury is combust the Sun. Also, the movement of the
planets has me worried. Mercury, our significator, won't be hitting
anything but the Sun any time soon, and house significator Jupiter is also
not going to run into anything soon. I can see the Moon as the wife,
friendly, encouraging and helpful, positively disposed towards us, but her
influence is over; we haven't met the husband yet, and he would probably be
the Sun, the next contact. Sun rules the 12th of hidden opposition, but
again, is disposited by Jupiter.

I'm also wondering what effects the eclipse may have had.

Now for the electional question: Should I try to schedule our meeting to
make the agreement for when Mercury is exactly conjunct the Sun within the
sun's disk, so that it is not combust but cazimi? We have tentatively
scheduled to meet on Monday evening at 7pm, so I would expect if we do sign
something it would be at or before 8pm. We can't move this meeting much
either way, unless we delay it to another day.

Thanks for reading the question,
JoAnne

JoAnne Schmitz
jschmitz@qis.net

Thread:	FW: North Node in the first house and Lee Lehman's comments
From:	Prafulla Gang <prafulla@emirates.net.ae>	Date:	Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:44:42 -0800

Status: U

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse [SMTP:treelife@easynet.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 1997 8:23 PM
To: Prafulla Gang
Subject: RE: North Node in the first house and Lee Lehman's comments=20

You have sent this to me directly but addressed it to everyone - I =
assume it
was meant for the list in general so you might need to re-send it to
william_lilly@halcyon.com
All the best,
Jonathon

>To all,
>
>WITHOUT PREJUDICE
>
>The concept of moon's nodes are primarily taken from vedic astrology =
and
tropical astrologers have picked up from there at very late stage. =
Western astrologers do not have any authoritative literature on =
functions and role of moon's nodes in the astrology and horoscope. =
Hence reference to any western astrologer for typical interpretation of =
moon's nodes is absurd. They have simply applied trial and error.
>
>With respect to role of karma in astrology, I will like to raise a =
basic
question- why there are different configurations in different horoscopes =
coupled with destined life. It is so, only for different karmas. Vedic =
astrology, considers these Nodes as karmic agents and their role is to =
make sure that, destiny is in line with karmas.=20
>
>The question of proof is also absurd and childish. Many things we =
believe
have no proofs- like existence of God etc. These are belief and =
practices.
However, these are not myths, they are spiritual powers.
>
>Likewise, astrology is not meant for reading future and/or =
characteristics
etc,. the basic objective of the astrology is to guide the human being =
in observing its obligation to its soul.=20
>
>Prafulla Gang
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse [SMTP:treelife@easynet.co.uk]
>Sent: Thursday, March 06, 1997 3:01 PM
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: RE: North Node in the first house and Lee Lehman's comments=20
>
>Lee -
>In one sense I absolutely agree with your comments about karma.
> It is a word that can get in the way, disguise ignorance etc. etc.
> However, I don't think we should confuse the linguistic form with the
>underlying truth which is common to all spiritual traditions i.e. "as =
you
>sow you shall reap" or "measure for measure" as the Bible puts it or =
"To
>every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" as Newton's third =
law
>of motion has it.
> I wouldthink that as learned a man as William Lilly was familiar with =
this
>principle. What interests me is whether this was expressed in the=20
>

Thread:	Julienne, this must have gotten lost
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:00:45 -0800

Status: U

>>At 09:03 AM 3/5/97 +1100, Linda wrote:
>>>At 06:25 AM 3/4/97 +0000, Julienne wrote:
>>>>At 12:27 AM 3/4/97 +0000, Osmar Jardim wrote:
>>>>>Julienne wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a question. I had asked a horary of the List some weeks back,
about
>>>>>> whether my father would come home or not. All the answers I received
said,
>>>>>> "No.".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My father is home.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do we look at what went wrong?
>>>>>>
>>>No, I don't think that's necessary. Your question was 'Should my father come
>>>home' not 'Will my father come home' There is a big difference.
>>
>>I saved the posts in question (I save too many but here it came in handy).
>>Julienne's question, verbatim, was:
>>
>>>Will I succeed in bringing my father home with me (that part is important -
>>>that I be with him), and is it the best thing for my father?
>>
>>And since Angela Reeve could not find her reply, I pulled that out of my big
>>hat, but the chart data was not included:

>>>Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:06:55 +8
>>>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:00:37 EST
>>>From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)"
>><usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>
>>>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>>>Subject: I need your insight
>>>
>>>Hi Julienne, I have erected a chart, not for your co-ordinates, but for the
>>
>>>time I understood your dilemma as it does make more sense to me that a
>>chart
>>>should be for when the astrologer understands the subject matter. Here goes

>>>You are obviously going through a very difficult time (Saturn in Aries),

Hi Angela,

The above statement is true.

>>and
>>>Saturn in the first house indicates that there could be obstruction to your
>>
>>>proposed course of action;

Also very true.

on the other hand, there are fixed signs on all
>>
>>>four angles which show that something is already underway and is unlikely
>>to
>>>be stopped. Saturn (your sig) does not make any aspect, but the Moon is
>>
>>>applying to sextile Neptune and is moving towards conjunction Saturn, plus
>>
>>>being in an intercepted sign, I feel indicates a covert plot afoot,
>>however, I
>>>think there are developments which will alter the anticipated situation.

There was a covert plot, I suppose, as my brothers had already taken over my
father's home and made plans to buy it out from under him. I didn't know
this until I got into the house two weeks ago.

>>>Your father's sig is Mercury, and there does appear to be a significant
>>change
>>>taking place for him within a '3', indeed, even as we speak, I would say
>>his
>>>circumstances have altered, this could be indicative of his state of
>>health,
>>>or maybe you have decided to act quickly due to anticipated opposition.

There was no particular change in his health, and nor was I able to act
quickly. It took about another 6 weeks after my horary question to get him home.

>>>In very brief conclusion, I would say that your father's condition will
>>
>>>dictate how events should best proceed, if his health allows you to move
>>him,
>>>then I would say that is what you will do, but if his condition
>>deteriorates
>>>then you will know it is best for you to give him all your love and support
>>
>>>whilst remaining in the hospice.

His health was not an issue. The point of Hospice is to allow people to die
in their homes instead of nursing homes or hospitals, so he would have been
allowed home no matter how ill he was. Hospice is a support system which
works either within a nursing home or at the person's own home. He would
have been "in Hospice" whether in a home or in his own home.

There is a speedy change shown and one
>>which
>>>is already in progress; this will provide the signpost for you. At the
>>present
>>>moment a move does not look to be particularly adviseable, unless the chart
>>is
>>>saying you have already accomplished it (Mercury stationary).

I had not accomplished it. However, the doctor felt the move WAS advisable.
It only became a problem when my brothers indicated they didn't want him to
come home. The ONLY hitch in the plan to bring him home was the opposition
of my brothers.

Unless you
>>have
>>>already taken matters into your own hands, I would say tarry a little
>>while,
>>>let the dust settle in order to see clearer the best way forward; and at
>>the
>>>end of the day, maybe it is up to your father to say where he would prefer
>>to
>>>be. Is he able to make that decision? Today (13th) could be decisive as
>>
>>>Mercury turns direct.

My father had repeated, daily, to many witnesses including the doctor and
the nursing home staff that he wanted to come home. Yes, he is capable of
making such a decision. Two weeks after coming home, he is now much more
excited about life and able to express himself.

I did "tarry" a while, because I had no choice. There were too many legal
ramifications for anything to happen quickly without my brothers' agreement,
and I was too intimidated, to just kidnap him.

>>>All the best, Julienne, you are going through a difficult time, but things
>>>should lighten a little from around the 22 Jan.

Actually, my diary notes on the Jan. 23 that Daddy was very depressed, and
he came down with the flu a few days later.

Well...I feel very awkward about all this. Almost as though I am being
ungrateful for questioning people's interpretations of horaries.

I certainly don't want to seem ungrateful, and nor do I want to upset
anyone, but, whatever branches of astrology interest us, we must be ready to
look at our results honestly and without reacting emotionally to
questioning. There is, clearly, a LOT of astrology done, and I don't mean
just in horary, where people make what look like brilliant prediction and
interpretations, and we all ooh and aaah, but they work is often very
incorrect. If we can't share that with each other, I think that's too bad.
This should be (as should the other lists) wonderful places to share ideas
and consult with each other.

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular - I'm just feeling a bit bruised at
the reaction to my question, and unfortunately I think if we bruise each
other in such situations it really doesn't help astrology in the long run -
just makes others less likely to stick their necks out.

Deb mentioned that my question was highly emotional, and it was, because the
issues were so major - literally potential life or death. I know that
probably my father would be dead now if I hadn't taken care of him the way I
have for the last 11 months. But the emotional quality of an issue shouldn't
be a detraction - the most important issues ARE usually highly emotional,
and we have to be able to deal with them.

Thanks to all who helped,

Julienne

Thread:	??
From:	pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)	Date:	Sat, 8 Mar 1997 12:03:06 -0800

Status: U

>To: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)"
<usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>
>From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
>Subject: Re: ??
>
>> Hi Angela,
>
> You wrote:
>"Just for the record, regarding my comment about everything being in the

>>chart, it just needs the skill of the interpreter to see it - I wasn't

>>directing that at you personally - I meant it as a generalised comment."
>
> In no way did I take your comments personally - in fact it is
particularly sensitive and generous of you to think that I may have. Thank
you for your consideration. In a way, I suppose this is the problem with
written communication - it is so easy for misunderstandings to arise.
>>
>>"....... I can see both halves of the argument in that regard,
>>astrology is a science with a rule-book of practise; but I can't help
thinking
>>that a touch of intuition goes a long way towards guiding an
interpretation
>>along the appropriate pathway. I can't really justify that with chapter
and
>>verse, altho Lilly does seem to hint at the elusive 'X' factor on at least
a
>>couple of occasions, unless I am totally misinterpreting him; at the end
of
>>the day I think I'm just glad for all the help I can get!!"
>
> I agree.
>>
>>Regards

>>
>>Patricia

>>
>>
>

Thread:	A question about questions
From:	pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)	Date:	Sat, 8 Mar 1997 12:01:07 -0800

Status: U

Hi All Horary Astrologers,

I've be reading with interest the debate regarding questions.
Recent postings lead me to think that most querents are asking for a `yes'
or `no' answer. In other words the debate seems to be more about closed
ended questions rather than open ended ones such as you would get with
`what' `why' `how'.

Is this a limitation of horary or is just the way the debate has
gone? Surely it would be more empowering for the client if horary can
answer open ended questions? Astrology as I know it is about getting the
client to think as well as take responsibiliy for the outcome - not just the
astrologer.

Patricia

Thread:	The Question
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Sat, 8 Mar 1997 07:44:13 -0800

Status: U

I'd like to just add a few words to the current discussion on the question:

Deborah wrote:
>Hi Angela.
>
>Thanks for your comments, which were graciously put, as ever. Taking up a
>couple of them , you write:
>
>>For a start off, the majority of the public will not be aware of the
>finer points of asking, or the correct procedure or phraseology to be used,
>all they know is their worry and that is what they will voice, you can't
>always turn around and say, "Now go away and come back when you can ask it
>properly!" The essence is understanding that person's situation and need,
>not
>whether or no you agree it, let alone how they say it.

>--- The onus is never on the querent, or on the words used to express the
>question, but on the ASTROLOGER being able to understand the situation
>clearly and being able to fully appreciate how they may or may not be able
>to help. But yes, you can say "give this matter some more thought and
>let's determine exactly what it is you are wanting to know". If you don't
>do that, and the question is confused, either in the mind of the querent or
>the astrologer, then you dilute the clarity of your judgment and let your
>client down.
>
>Best wishes,
>Deb

I think that this point should be emphasised with no reference to any
particular issue current on the list. It is easy to fall into the trap, as
an inexperienced horary astrologer, of thinking that you have to answer
everything that comes your way. I know this because I've done it.

We say that horary can answer almost any _type_ of question and to a large
extent this is true, but that doesn't mean any question.

The most critical point in any dealings with a client is understanding the
question - your judgement stands or falls on this. If you think that your
client is less than clear about the situation then you have every cause to
ask them to come back to you when they have given it more thought. All of
those whose practise I know about do this. It is interesting that in urgent
or emergency situations, the question is as clear as a bell and there is
never any doubt about _the moment_.

One of the greatest problems in horary is the 'should I' question. It's not
that it is necessarily an invalid question, just that the chances of the
astrologer misunderstanding it are so great. This, I might add, is also one
of the most frequent sources of the cautions. I think that this is, at
least, part of Deborah's reticence with this type of question, certainly it
is mine.

A client was due to have surgery, she asked: 'Is it going to be safe?'.
There must be six interpretations of this question in the context of the
surgery alone, so it would have been most unwise of me if I had just
accepted this without further probing.

An early question in my career was 'Should I increase my [insurance]
claim?'. I judged this and got into quite a state about it because I thought
she was asking if it was worthwhile her pursuing an increased claim, but no,
she wanted to know if it was _right and proper_ for her to do so (as in
morally right). I'll leave it to your imaginations as to how this all went!
It would have been better had I turned this question down.

You can and you should ask for clarity. Lilly's comment on Bonatus'
aphorisms 1 - 3 regarding the question is helpful: "Those that take this
sober course, shall find the truth in what they enquire after; but whosoever
do otherwise, deceive both themselves and the artist; for a foolish Querent
may cause a wise Respondent to err, which brings a scandal upon the Art
amongst inconsiderate people, whereas the Astrologer is not blameable, but
the ignorant, silly Querent."

Sincerely

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Missing Fordham student update
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Sat, 8 Mar 1997 06:14:56 -0800

Status: U

The following quote is from the NY Times on 3/6. He is still missing:

"Patrick McNeill Jr., a Fordham University student, disappeared after leaving
a Manhattan bar two weeks ago and his face is now plastered on utility poles
all over the city. In his hometown of Port Chester, a room in the Village
Hall has become the Patrick McNeill Volunteer Center. Neighbors and strangers
work telephones, put up fliers and scour the city for the young man, who has
apparently been spotted at least once since his disappearance. It is
something to see. Jeff Gray, a friend of the McNeill family, said up to 800
people have volunteered in some way, from school children holding bake sales
to raise money for the center, to off-duty police officers volunteering their
expertise. "

Thread:	Computer crash
From:	Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com>	Date:	Fri, 7 Mar 1997 19:45:57 -0800

Hi Angela.

Thanks for your comments, which were graciously put, as ever. Taking up a
couple of them , you write:

>For a start off, the majority of the public will not be aware of the
finer points of asking, or the correct procedure or phraseology to be used,

all they know is their worry and that is what they will voice, you can't

always turn around and say, "Now go away and come back when you can ask it

properly!" The essence is understanding that person's situation and need,
not
whether or no you agree it, let alone how they say it.

--- The onus is never on the querent, or on the words used to express the
question, but on the ASTROLOGER being able to understand the situation
clearly and being able to fully appreciate how they may or may not be able
to help. But yes, you can say "give this matter some more thought and
let's determine exactly what it is you are wanting to know". If you don't
do that, and the question is confused, either in the mind of the querent or
the astrologer, then you dilute the clarity of your judgment and let your
client down.

I think I've answered your other comments in my earlier response. The point
that I'd like to emphasise is that I was not suggesting Julienne's horary
was 'onerous' or 'unallowable', but in my opinion the question, or the
situation, needed further understanding before it was judged upon.
Julienne asked to have it looked at again because it had seemed to her that
the horary had been wrong. I don't believe that the horary was wrong, but
that the understanding of the question from those astrologers who offered
judgement was not clear enough.

> How many times have we seen questions on this list about "Will I sell my

house?" - "Shall I change my job?" - "Will I win the Court case?" In every

case the querent wanted to do, intended to do, the things asked about -
wanted
to sell the house - wanted to change the job - intended to win the Court
case;
but they wanted the solice of knowing how things would, in all probability,

pan out. Isn't that what any predictive system is for?

----- No, because to suggest that horary exists to offer the solice of
knowing how things will turn out, suggests that we only appreciate it for
its ability to tell us -- yes, relax, its all going to turn out as you want
it to. More often than not I have to tell clients that their intended
course of action is not leading to success, or that their anticipated hopes
for the future don't match with hard reality. Although usually its hardest
and most uncomfortable role, that can often be the most worthwhile use of
horary. If the querent is sincerely looking for guidance then they will
get it, and if they are honest with themselves they will be able to admit
that they've come to a poor understanding of the situation and that the
horary is a way to reconnect with what they know -- deep down -- is
sensible and right. If the querent already has a firm and solid
understanding of the situation, and a committed course of action to boot,
then a horary will have little value to them and certainly no influence on
them. I'm talking here about the 'value' of the horary, not the validity
of it -- all horaries are capable of judgement, but if we miss the crux of
the matter at the time of the question, we only get to see its real message
in hindsight.

I'm not necessarily referring to Julienne's horary in that comment, but
let's bear in mind that her situation is a highly emotive one. Although
this list is set up in the spirit of detached, academic debate, there's a
fine line between being open about the situation as you see it, and
personally offensive to the person still living the situation out. I guess
I'm walking warily down that line, and let's face it, we'd never take a
client's chart and publish it along with their identity and personal
details for all to see. I'm happy to continue the philosophical discussion
if you wish, but I don't think I have anything to add to my comments on
Julienne's chart.

Best wishes,
Deb
==============================
Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com
Editor: Traditional Astrologer Magazine
Ascella Publications

Thread:	Computer crash
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:37:32 -0800

At 01:11 PM 3/7/97 +0000, Deborah Houlding wrote:
>--- Hi Julienne,
>
>With regard to your comment after my statement:

>But the way your question was phrased suggests that you had already decided
>that it was in your father's best interests to bring him home, so your
>question was really about 'will I succeed'? I may be misintepreting it
>still, but the point is that the question is complex and needed further
>probing for any of us to know what you were really wanting out of that
>horary.

Deb, I did indeed feel it was in my father's best interests for him to come
home. Who wants to languish in a nursing home? And his doctor agreed with
me. However, when my brothers were so opposed, I thought I had better look
carefully at what I was doing, in case there were things that I weren't
seeing, which my brothers were. That was why I asked the Lilly List - I
thought that would be a more objective place to go.

>If my assumption was correct, you were determined upon a course of action
>that none of us were going to persuade you against, even if we'd said "it's
>not in your father's interests, let him remain where he is". I'm not
>suggesting that you were bloody minded, just sure in your own mind of what
>you needed to be doing, and why.
>
>So what was the point of the horary?

I hate to belabour this, Deb, but as I just explained, I was not totally
determined. Further, as I described in my last post, it wouldn't have
mattered how determined I were if the people in charge (the doctor, Hospice,
etc) hadn't agreed. It wasn't just my brothers I had to deal with. After my
brothers spoke to these people, they changed their minds, and refused to let
my father come home. The deciding event was a meeting finally held with
everyone concerned, where my brother attacked me horribly. That seemed to be
the turning point. The doctor immediately, at that meeting, gave his
permission for my father to come home.

>I don't think this was a 'sincere' question because I doubt that you were
>really looking for guidance, and your mind was not fully open to
>alternatives.

Well, guess I can't convince you. You had to be here to see me go through
the process. I'm not sure what you mean by "alternatives". No one offered
any. because of the way our health system works, there are few channels or
alternatives. But I did explore everything I could think of, and asked for
ideas from others. My brothers had no alternatives - they consider him dead
already, and wanted him in the nursing home where they didn't have to deal
with him.

>--- I think that people are wrong if they assume that the value of horary
>lies in its ability to predict what will happen. As Dennis Elwell said
>recently "astrology should not be about prediciting disasters, it should be
>about preventing them".

Which one might say about all astrology. The whole point of astrology is to
increase our understanding of life processes so that we can be more
conscious and in charge of our own lives instead of just being buffeted by Fate.

It would be unfair to isolate this chart because
>it is a wide-spread attitude and your question was fairly typical as horary
>questions go, but the deep conviction that I have developed for the
>usefulness and value of horary has never arisen out of questions like this.
>It's derived from a few, rare charts where some kind of break through has
>been made in the querent's understanding which can lead to a whole life
>being trasnformed; or certainly there is a greater sense of value or
>purpose. It has nothing to do with the triviality of the question, but
>everything to do with the question being put in such a way that the querent
>is really able to benefit from it. Hence, the most trivial, mundane
>question, can have a deep sincerity because they hit the point, while the
>most profound and moving situations can be insincere in horary terms
>because they don't quite get to the heart of the issue. I hope you
>understand what I mean.

Deb, I hear what you're saying, but it would seem that we have to pass a
"question test" for horary to be valid? "Nope - your question's no good.
Bye!" It would seem to me that many, if not most questions, except for
pretty straightforward and simple ones, would carry within them some element
of ambiguity, or be subject to some level of misinterpretation, especially
on the Internet! :) - where voice and feedback are limited at best.

What do we do about all the left-over questions which don't pass the
viability test? And are people always so sure what they really want to know
when they ask questions? I think life is fantastically complicated, and that
astrology "works" to any degree, whether horary or any other branch, I think
is nothing short of totally impossibly mad and awesome. I think we have to
be able to deal with questions as they are, and try to phrase them as best
we can, and just hope we understand them.

>> Your interpretation seems sound, but, as Angela said, we can all do it
>after the fact.
>
>--- Any comments made at this point benefit from the adavantage of
>hindsight which is probably why most of us didn't want to look at the chart
>again. It doesn't actually prove anything. But it was your request that we
>do so now that the facts are known to see 'what went wrong'. The symbolism
>seems clear and accurate to me, so whereas you remain unconvinced that
>horary has any real value, to me it re-confirms my experience that all
>horary charts have validity and that when mistakes are made it is the
>result of a poorly understood question or an inability to see the real
>message of the chart, which always reveals itself in hindsight.

I am sure that a chart contains the concerns of the moment within it, but I
don't think any chart contains THE one possible description of coming
events. It is because it holds the moment within it that we can go back and
*see* the description of what actually happened within it, but I doubt if
what happened was really all that could have happened.

>I hope that things go more smoothly for you. More than anything I hope
>that some sort of peace is found with your brothers. Mars in the 4th house
>shows a deep-rooted conflict lying right at the base of all this and
>influencing everything. I don't believe that judges or courts will be able
>to sort this situation out for long without disruption resurfacing on a
>regular basis. Ultimately the only resolution will come through finding
>some level of agreement with your brothers.

Legally, Deb, it seems now to be pretty clear cut. However, we grew up in a
family where I was the scapegoat, so they are used to trashing me with
impunity. The few visits we have so far had to court and with the police are
the first ones where they have ever lost in a fight with me, simply because
I always just gave in and was quiet. But that was when I was the only issue.
Now my father is at issue, so I won't be quiet and watch him being mistreated.

I described part of what I have tried, but my brothers have spoken to me
very little over the last 35 years - and not much to each other either. They
all have Moon/Mars conjunctions, and Pluto is now conjunct my twin brothers'
Sun, Moon, and MC between 0 and 5 Sag. I will continue to try to build
bridges. My twin brothers only lived with me for two years after they were 4
years old, so they don't really know me. Their anger is really about my
parents.

>In the meantime, all the best to you and your father,

Thanks, Deb. He ate his first meal alone, tonight! Just picked up the knife
and fork and ate as though he'd been doing it all along. I've been feeding
him for months now. I can't believe the difference in him in just two weeks
at home. He's writing...which he hasn't done for at least a year, and
watching TV, etc. I knew he didn't have to be as bad as he was, but his
improvement is even beyond what I thought was realistically possible. It
makes me sick to think of all the elderly in these throw-away homes -
abandoned by their families. Something has to be done - and we're not far
off from the time when we will be the ones being stuck away in them.
Something to think about.

I'm sorry my questions seemed to have aroused some ire, and I wish this were
all about something other than my family. But - it is what it is. Life isn't
always comfortable.

Love,

Julienne

Thread:	North Node in the first house
From:	Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:33:05 -0800

At 12:59 PM 3/6/97 -0700, Dorothy and Alexander Kovach wrote:
>Linda Reid wrote:
>>However since Nodes feature in horary in some way, I'd personally be
>>interested in your interpetation of their application and 'meaning' when the
>>Nodal axis is close to the Asc (quesitor) in the horary chart. The
>>'decision' to ask the question when the Node is on the Asc must mean
something?
>
>Bonatus#111.
>"to consider in Nativities, and Questions, especially Lawsuits and
>controversies, whether the Dragon's Tail be inthe 7th? For that signifies
>damage or overthrow to the native's enemies and prosperity to the Native or
>Querent because the Dragon's Head will then be in the Ascendent."
>
>hope this helps,
>dorothy
>
Hi Dorothy,

Thanks - my horary library is small - and getting smaller unless I find Tony
Louis!

That's a pretty specific statement!

Regards,

Linda

>
>

Thread:	North node
From:	kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com>	Date:	Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:01:10 -0800

Status: U

Hi ya'll,
How come the nodes are "typically vedic"? North nodes have been used in
western astrology for centuries. I haven't personally investigated the
history of astrology but last summer in a discussion on the tropical vs.
sidereal zodiac Robert Hand stated that his understanding based on his
studies was that astrology started in the near east and spread from
there. Over the centuries Eastern and Western astrology developed along
different lines. I respect his opion because I know that through his
translations he has picked up a lot of history.
Kent

Thread:	Computer crash
From:	Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com>	Date:	Fri, 7 Mar 1997 05:11:52 -0800

Status: U

--- Hi Julienne,

With regard to your comment after my statement:

>The Sun is conjunct Neptune and 4th ruler, Mercury, is square Mars in the
>4th house. Both suggest a confused and unstable state of mind.

Well, I hope not unstable, but certainly I was confused. I couldn't, and
still can't, believe my brothers are doing this. I keep looking for where I
am the problem - as that seems almost more acceptable to me than seeing my
brothers in this light.

----- Sorry to confuse you further, but I was referring to your father's
state of mind here, not yours.

>The feeling I got from your response is that you think I asked the
question
trivially in order to make fun of the responses. Is this so?

----- No I never thought that and I wouldn't like anyone to assume that I
may have done. In my original post I wrote that I am wary about the
sincerity of horary questions; because it is my belief that we need to look
closely at what exactly is being asked, and make a decision firstly on
whether horary can help; and if so, how and why. I would not have taken
your question as it was put because it is a confused one, combining
together firstly: will I succeed? and then secondly, should I succeed?
Horary works best if such issues are isolated.

But the way your question was phrased suggests that you had already decided
that it was in your father's best interests to bring him home, so your
question was really about 'will I succeed'? I may be misintepreting it
still, but the point is that the question is complex and needed further
probing for any of us to know what you were really wanting out of that
horary.

If my assumption was correct, you were determined upon a course of action
that none of us were going to persuade you against, even if we'd said "it's
not in your father's interests, let him remain where he is". I'm not
suggesting that you were bloody minded, just sure in your own mind of what
you needed to be doing, and why.

So what was the point of the horary?

I don't think this was a 'sincere' question because I doubt that you were
really looking for guidance, and your mind was not fully open to
alternatives. That's not to say that I thought it was a trivial matter, or
asked in anything other than an earnest attitude, but the way the question
was put did not allow horary to be used at its most creative (which is in
illuminating a situation and offering better alternatives through
increasing our own understanding and awareness). The question was also put
in such a way that it could lead an astrologer into error through
misunderstanding; and that may be why 7th-ruler Saturn stood so prominently
in the 10th conjunct the South Node.

>As to "second-guessing the future"...what particular distinction are you
making there between ordinary interpretation of a horary and whatever you
think this question was?

--- I think that people are wrong if they assume that the value of horary
lies in its ability to predict what will happen. As Dennis Elwell said
recently "astrology should not be about prediciting disasters, it should be
about preventing them". It would be unfair to isolate this chart because
it is a wide-spread attitude and your question was fairly typical as horary
questions go, but the deep conviction that I have developed for the
usefulness and value of horary has never arisen out of questions like this.
It's derived from a few, rare charts where some kind of break through has
been made in the querent's understanding which can lead to a whole life
being trasnformed; or certainly there is a greater sense of value or
purpose. It has nothing to do with the triviality of the question, but
everything to do with the question being put in such a way that the querent
is really able to benefit from it. Hence, the most trivial, mundane
question, can have a deep sincerity because they hit the point, while the
most profound and moving situations can be insincere in horary terms
because they don't quite get to the heart of the issue. I hope you
understand what I mean.

> Your interpretation seems sound, but, as Angela said, we can all do it
after the fact.

--- Any comments made at this point benefit from the adavantage of
hindsight which is probably why most of us didn't want to look at the chart
again. It doesn't actually prove anything. But it was your request that we
do so now that the facts are known to see 'what went wrong'. The symbolism
seems clear and accurate to me, so whereas you remain unconvinced that
horary has any real value, to me it re-confirms my experience that all
horary charts have validity and that when mistakes are made it is the
result of a poorly understood question or an inability to see the real
message of the chart, which always reveals itself in hindsight.

I hope that things go more smoothly for you. More than anything I hope
that some sort of peace is found with your brothers. Mars in the 4th house
shows a deep-rooted conflict lying right at the base of all this and
influencing everything. I don't believe that judges or courts will be able
to sort this situation out for long without disruption resurfacing on a
regular basis. Ultimately the only resolution will come through finding
some level of agreement with your brothers.

In the meantime, all the best to you and your father,

Regards, Deborah
==============================
Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com
Editor: Traditional Astrologer Magazine
Ascella Publications

Thread:	Computer crash
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 7 Mar 1997 04:06:08 -0800

Status: U

In a message dated 97-03-06 20:45:43 EST, you write:

<< "Will I suceed in bringing my father home (that part is important -- that
I
be with him), and is it the best thing for my father?" >>

Deb,

The phrasing of this question suggests to me that she is "really" asking
"Will I get my wish?" Thus is becomes of matter of the 1st and 11th houses.
I posted my analysis previous that the chart indicates she will get her
wish.

Tony

Thread:	Nodes
From:	Prafulla Gang <prafulla@emirates.net.ae>	Date:	Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:35:17 -0800

Status: U

Angela Reeve,

The moon's nodes are typically vedic astrological concept and western =
astrology has picked up from there. In vedic astrology, both are =
considered as true karmic agents. Their placement in the chart, =
association with other planets etc indicate past karmas. Their =
dispositor in the chart is treated as karmic controlling planet (KCP). =
The effects of these karmic planets are purely dependent upon the house =
placement in the chart, association with other planets and strength of =
KCP, Under the circumstances, both can be malefic and benefic , =
depending upon chart configuration.
In terms of their nature, north node (Rahu) is considered like saturn; =
and south node (ketu) is considered like mars. Repeat, these =
comparisons are only for understanding their nature, not the functions =
in the chart.
In past months, the planetary transit had two complicated conjunctions- =
NN & Mars; and SN & ketu. This opposition in fact, hold the balance in =
universe. Now most of the planets will under the influence of these =
natural malefic planets between mid march to mid april 1997. This is =
universal phenomenon, however, depending upon individual charts, their =
ascendants, there have been uncertain events- both bad and good.

Prafulla Gang=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00) =
[SMTP:usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 1997 1:23 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: nodes

Hi Carol, re your reply about the nodes affecting the house/planet they =
=20
touch with the relevant natures ascribed to them by Lilly, viz NN =3D =
Jupiter/ =20
Venus; SN =3D Mars/Saturn - would you think that is why recent weeks =
have =20
seemed to be so difficult for so many people (at least in my neck of the =
woods)=20
because Saturn has been hanging around the South Node for so long? And =
that =20
maybe it is't just the onset of Spring which is bringing a lightening of =
=20
issues, but more likely the fact that Saturn is now separating from SN? =
=20

I am just interested to know how literally such interpretation of the =
Nodes =20
can be taken because Saturn conjunct the SN has been a universal =
configuration,=20
not an individualistic one. =
=20

Regards =
=20

Angela =
=20

Thread:	Computer crash
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:51:40 -0800

Status: RO

At 08:58 PM 3/6/97 +0000, Deborah Houlding wrote:

>Back to list business -- Julienne's question was 'will I SUCCEED in
>bringing my father home?'.

>The exact phrasing of the question was:
>
>"Will I suceed in bringing my father home (that part is important -- that I
>be with him), and is it the best thing for my father?"
>
>Under normal circumstances I wouldn't comment on or accept a question like
>this because the first part of the question indicates that the second part
>is really an afterthought as far as the horary is concerned -- she has in
>fact stated that what she really wants to know is will she be able to do
>it; will she win. The question of whether it's in father's best interest
>then becomes a red herring for the astrologer.
>
>Looking at the chart to see if the querent will be successful, the Moon's
>applying sextile to angular Sun and Jupiter gives an accurate reflection of
>her successful quest to re-unite with her father.

It was not a matter of reuniting with him - it was that if he came home
without me no one would have looked after him. My brothers have all said
they consider him dead already.

>".....and is it the best thing for my father?"
>
>The Sun is conjunct Neptune and 4th ruler, Mercury, is square Mars in the
>4th house. Both suggest a confused and unstable state of mind.

Well, I hope not unstable, but certainly I was confused. I couldn't, and
still can't, believe my brothers are doing this. I keep looking for where I
am the problem - as that seems almost more acceptable to me than seeing my
brothers in this light.

Mercury
>Square Mars also indicates strife and conflict connected with the father
>and the family property. However, Mercury is in its station, turning
>direct, and has passed the square of Saturn (8th house ruler) showing that
>danger of death is diminishing. It is moving on to the immediate
>conjunction of benefic Venus in the radical 6th (turned 3rd) showing an
>improvement in his state of health and frame of mind.

He has indeed improved in the two weeks since he has been home - and this
has been commented on by the agency representatives who come to check on
him. He is overjoyed to be home. I haven't told him anything about what is
happening with my brothers. He spent the first few days sleeping on a
mattress on the floor because my brothers wouldn't let him have his room
back until the judge first spoke to them in court. They went to court to
have our father removed from the home and sent back to the nursing home.

Venus rules the
>radical 5th (2nd from the 4th) showing that there are financial
>implications in bringing the father home, that he will benefit from
>personally. The square aspect from Mars in the 4th to the Mercury/Venus
>conjunction suggests the conflict involved in the situation is as much
>about money as anything else.

It may be, but my father knows nothing of it...and I don't see any way he
will really benefit financially - especially as there is nothing he could do
with any money. For my brothers is may be money, but for my father it's
property - but he doesn't know it.

The only money issue I know of, which I didn't know about when I asked the
horary, is that my brothers were intending to rent a studio over the garage
to collect rents. Apparently they saw the house as a source of income for
themselves. They discussed none of this with me. In any case, I think it's
unconscionable that they want him to stay in a nursing home so they can make
money from his home. It's his home, and he supposedly could die at any
moment. Surely they could wait.

>With the father's significator (Mercury) gaining in strength, the father
>will not be damaged by being brought home
>
>With the querent's significator strong and applying to fortunate aspects,
>she is likely to be successful
>
>With Saturn ruling 7th, opposite Mars, conjunct South Node and positioned
>in 10th, the astrologer is unlikely to please the querent and unlikely to
>benefit through the question.
>
>With Sun ruling 3rd house and Part of fortune in the 3rd, Julienne's best
>course of action appears to be to try and establish whatever peace she can
>with the brothers.

>Unlike Angela or Julienne, I have no reservations at all about the validity
>of horary astrology. From a viewpoint of complete scepticism I have --
>through experience -- been moved to one of complete confidence and trust in
>it.
>However, I am very wary about the sincerity of questions and the issue of
>what, exactly, is being asked, and how and why could horary help. I
>dislike 3rd party questions or those that fail to offer some kind of
>meaningful insight to give the querent greater freedom/understanding of
>their circumstances.
>
>In this case I'm sure that Julienne was already determined upon a course of
>action, so all this horary could ever offer was a chance to second-guess
>the future. Because of that I don't think the question was a sincere one
>and perhaps that was why there was a potential danger of disrepute for
>astrologers became involved in it.

I was indeed determined to do what I could to bring my father home, because
he had lost 28 pounds in the Nursing Home, and was terribly depressed and
fading fast, but it wasn't my decision to make. The doctor had to agree, as
did the nursing home and Hospice. My brothers were equally determined that
he not come home, but although I knew they were opposed, I didn't know the
full extent of this, nor did I understand fully their reasons when I first
asked the question. You're right that it was financial - or at least about
property. What I have since discovered is that they had simply moved my
parents things out and moved in to the house themselves. My father's
reappearance only upset that.

"...is it the best thing for my father" was not just an afterthought at all.
The opposition from my brothers was so ferocious that I had to do a lot of
thinking about my own motives. I had to be sure that I really could take on
the responsibility as it meant taking care of him completely by myself. I
was, in the face of my brothers' supposed fears about my competency, trying
to be clear about whether I was only going to be harming my father. Also, I
think it wasn't realy about my winning at all - but my father's winning. I
had to do it for him, so only in that sense was I a winner.

I can't understand why you don't think the question was a sincere one.
Watching my father dying in the Nursing Home for 8 months, begging to be
taken home, has been a heartbreaking and sickening experience. The only
reason he was there was because my mother was at home dying, and she
couldn't tolerate him in the house at the same time. Since he came home, my
brothers have had the police to the house four times, and I have spent two
days in court. So far the court has defended my father and me, but my
brothers have not given up, and two of them filed more charges against me today.

The feeling I got from your response is that you think I asked the question
trivially in order to make fun of the responses. Is this so?

As to making peace with my brothers - I have tried, and I have suggested
mediation as they won't talk. The Judge in court suggested the same thing.
My brothers refuse, because they still think they have everything, and
compromise with me would mean they lose something, and that my father would
be allowed to stay in his own home until he dies. They even think his
bedroom furniture and refrigerator are theirs, and don't want him using
them. My father now has a lawyer who is handling everything for him, and
protecting his rights, and I am focusing on taking daily care of my father.
Dad can't walk, can't feed himself, and I even have to change him ten times
a day. He is 6 foot four, and not easy to handle or move. He has Lymphoma.
This wasn't just a fun decision, Deb. I can't even leave the house because
my father can't be left alone. Whether it was the best thing for him really
was about whether I could do this job.

As to "second-guessing the future"...what particular distinction are you
making there between ordinary interpretation of a horary and whatever you
think this question was?

Your interpretation seems sound, but, as Angela said, we can all do it after
the fact.

Well...thanks for writing. Sorry about your computer - mine crashed two
weeks ago, too.

Love,

Julienne

Thread:	Computer crash
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Fri, 7 Mar 1997 01:34:11 -0800

Status: U

Hi Deb, sorry to hear about your computer mishap, hope all's better now. My
e-mail address is USFMD8X5@IBMMAIL.COM.

Your interpretation of Julienne's chart was, as always, superb. I always enjoy
reading your postings. However, I do disagree with your comments about the
manner in which her question was asked. I know this is of utmost importance,
it is applicable in many such instances across the board, and I do not wish to
minimise that, but there are extents to which such conditions can be used or
applied. For a start off, the majority of the public will not be aware of the
finer points of asking, or the correct procedure or phraseology to be used,
all they know is their worry and that is what they will voice, you can't
always turn around and say, "Now go away and come back when you can ask it
properly!" The essence is understanding that person's situation and need, not
whether or no you agree it, let alone how they say it.

In Julienne's case, yes, it was obvious that her preferred course of action,
indeed intent, was to bring her father home. She basically wanted to know a)
would she succeed, and b) was she doing the right thing? What's wrong with
that? Don't we all do that? I know I do. I may ask for advice in any number of
situations, but very often I know what I would like to do, and all things
being equal, intend to do, it is only natural that people will look for some
support in that intended action, or want to be aware of any unanticipated
'potholes'. I really don't see why that is so onerous or so 'unallowable'; it
is normal reaction to say "I would really hope to be able to do this, is there
any reason why I can't or shouldn't?"

How many times have we seen questions on this list about "Will I sell my
house?" - "Shall I change my job?" - "Will I win the Court case?" In every
case the querent wanted to do, intended to do, the things asked about - wanted
to sell the house - wanted to change the job - intended to win the Court case;
but they wanted the solice of knowing how things would, in all probability,
pan out. Isn't that what any predictive system is for? The fact that a person
has a desired, even determined, course of action in mind should not detract
from their sincerity of enquiry.

I am normally in complete concurrance with your opinions and sentiments, Deb,
but in this instance, although I agree in the theory, I think your actual
practise in the way you state it here, is just a little unreasonable and
unfair in its implied rigidity and judgmental quality.

Regards

Angela

Thread:	North Node in the first house and Lee Lehman's comments
From:	RG4invirgo@aol.com	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:26:57 -0800

On the Nodes specifically! The nodes are this if it is a North Node it is
equal to a trine or a sextile, if South Node is equal to a square or
opposition. This is Horary and in my opinon goes for Natal as well. The
problem with Karma based nodes is that it was made up and not based on
anything, however it is good reading if you like fiction. The more that is
created with no historical facts the more confused people get. Nodes is just
one of the area's this has happen to how about asteroids, chiron, Lilith,
Tsquares, Grand Trines, Kite's, Boomerangs, Midpoints, where does it in. As
far as Karma I think cause and effect is as old as BC just different lingo,
such as channeling replaced the word Mediumship.

Thread:	Computer crash
From:	Deborah Houlding <Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com>	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:09:15 -0800

Firstly a request:

I have just received my computer back since it literally burst into flames
at the start of the week. I have had to re-install my email server and I've
lost all the addresses in my email address book. I'd be grateful if anyone
who knows me would post an email message so that I can build my address
book up again.

I've also lost several emails that I was about to respond to and a number
that should have reached me, but didn't. If anyone has an outstanding
message that needs a reply, can you please re-send it?

Back to list business -- Julienne's question was 'will I SUCCEED in
bringing my father home?'.

With acsendant at 10 Cancer, she is shown by the Moon which, at 14 Pisces,
is very strongly placed on the Midheaven. The Moon's next aspect is a
dexter sextile to the Sun at 22 Capricorn. The Sun is the natural
significator of the father in a day time chart. The aspect is already in
orb and since these two planets are both angular and above the horizon,
there is a major indication of success here; that the querent will get what
she wants.

The exact phrasing of the question was:

"Will I suceed in bringing my father home (that part is important -- that I
be with him), and is it the best thing for my father?"

Under normal circumstances I wouldn't comment on or accept a question like
this because the first part of the question indicates that the second part
is really an afterthought as far as the horary is concerned -- she has in
fact stated that what she really wants to know is will she be able to do
it; will she win. The question of whether it's in father's best interest
then becomes a red herring for the astrologer.

Looking at the chart to see if the querent will be successful, the Moon's
applying sextile to angular Sun and Jupiter gives an accurate reflection of
her successful quest to re-unite with her father.

".....and is it the best thing for my father?"

The Sun is conjunct Neptune and 4th ruler, Mercury, is square Mars in the
4th house. Both suggest a confused and unstable state of mind. Mercury
Square Mars also indicates strife and conflict connected with the father
and the family property. However, Mercury is in its station, turning
direct, and has passed the square of Saturn (8th house ruler) showing that
danger of death is diminishing. It is moving on to the immediate
conjunction of benefic Venus in the radical 6th (turned 3rd) showing an
improvement in his state of health and frame of mind. Venus rules the
radical 5th (2nd from the 4th) showing that there are financial
implications in bringing the father home, that he will benefit from
personally. The square aspect from Mars in the 4th to the Mercury/Venus
conjunction suggests the conflict involved in the situation is as much
about money as anything else.

With the father's significator (Mercury) gaining in strength, the father
will not be damaged by being brought home

With the querent's significator strong and applying to fortunate aspects,
she is likely to be successful

With Saturn ruling 7th, opposite Mars, conjunct South Node and positioned
in 10th, the astrologer is unlikely to please the querent and unlikely to
benefit through the question.

With Sun ruling 3rd house and Part of fortune in the 3rd, Julienne's best
course of action appears to be to try and establish whatever peace she can
with the brothers.

Unlike Angela or Julienne, I have no reservations at all about the validity
of horary astrology. From a viewpoint of complete scepticism I have --
through experience -- been moved to one of complete confidence and trust in
it.
However, I am very wary about the sincerity of questions and the issue of
what, exactly, is being asked, and how and why could horary help. I
dislike 3rd party questions or those that fail to offer some kind of
meaningful insight to give the querent greater freedom/understanding of
their circumstances.

In this case I'm sure that Julienne was already determined upon a course of
action, so all this horary could ever offer was a chance to second-guess
the future. Because of that I don't think the question was a sincere one
and perhaps that was why there was a potential danger of disrepute for
astrologers became involved in it.

Best wishes
Deb
----------------------------------------------
Deborah_Houlding@compuserve.com
Editor - Traditional Astrologer Magazine
Ascella Publications

Thread:	North Node in the first house
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:02:05 -0800

Linda Reid wrote:
>However since Nodes feature in horary in some way, I'd personally be
>interested in your interpetation of their application and 'meaning' when the
>Nodal axis is close to the Asc (quesitor) in the horary chart. The
>'decision' to ask the question when the Node is on the Asc must mean something?

Bonatus#111.
"to consider in Nativities, and Questions, especially Lawsuits and
controversies, whether the Dragon's Tail be inthe 7th? For that signifies
damage or overthrow to the native's enemies and prosperity to the Native or
Querent because the Dragon's Head will then be in the Ascendent."

hope this helps,
dorothy

Thread:	North Node in the first house-reply
From:	"J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix16.ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 15:42:07 -0800

Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au> wrote:
> However since Nodes feature in horary in some way, I'd personally be
> interested in your interpetation of their application and 'meaning' when the
> Nodal axis is close to the Asc (quesitor) in the horary chart. The
> 'decision' to ask the question when the Node is on the Asc must mean something?

Yes, but what? I did a search of my horary files for the North Node
conjunct the Asc. The results did not highlight any particularly
significant charts, either in terms of type of question, accuracy of
judgment, or "hotness" of the question for the Querent.

In Lilly's horaries, there were four examples with the North Node
conjunct the Ascendant. The below shows what Lilly has to say.

p. 200. Report RE Cambridge. Lilly explicitly mentioned that the
conjunction benefited the Querent's "side," i.e., Parliament.

p. 417. Husband away at sea. Lilly doesn't mention the conjunction.

p. 455. Charles I & Ireland. Lilly mentions that the Sun is conjunct
SN, but nothing RE the conjunction of NN to Asc.

p. 467. Horse lost or stolen. Lilly mentions the conjunction as
favoring the Querent over the thief.

So: half the time Lilly doesn't even mention it, and when he does,
it's simply one argument of benefit to the Querent. Thus, I conlcude
that the NN cnj Asc is no different than any other benefic cnj the
Asc: an argument of favor, but not anything compelling.
---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction

Thread:	Nodes
From:	"Nicholas Grier" <n.grier@napier.ac.uk>	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 04:20:39 -0800

Some writers are of the view that the Nodes are significant in an
event chart if they are in the exact degree as a planet. It is said to
have sometimes fatal significance in an accident chart, a view with
which I would concur. However in my limited experience in more
domestic horary charts I have not found that the position of the nodes
tells me anything. The virtue of a discussion group is that someone
somewhere will be able to provide a practical example of its meaning.
Nicholas Grier

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: nodes
Author: william_lilly@halcyon.com at internet-gateway
Date: 06/03/97 07:46

Linda and members of the list,
Lilly noted that the north node had a benefic nature like that of
jupiter and venus while the south node had a malific nature like mars
and saturn. I would read it as having that type of effect on the
house it is found in and any planet it is in aspect with. I will
have a look and see if other authors have indicated anything
different than that.
Carol
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Thread:	Registered: Ian Goldsmith
From:	Ian Goldsmith <igoldsmi@nla.gov.au>	Date:	Wed, 5 Mar 1997 16:06:09 -0800

Thread:	North Node in the first house and Lee Lehman's comments
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 02:58:17 -0800

Lee -
In one sense I absolutely agree with your comments about karma.
It is a word that can get in the way, disguise ignorance etc. etc.
However, I don't think we should confuse the linguistic form with the
underlying truth which is common to all spiritual traditions i.e. "as you
sow you shall reap" or "measure for measure" as the Bible puts it or "To
every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" as Newton's third law
of motion has it.
I wouldthink that as learned a man as William Lilly was familiar with this
principle. What interests me is whether this was expressed in the astrology
of the time. It appears not to have been unless what we are studying is only
the exoteric astrology and matters of such import were contained in another,
esoteric form.

>2. Karma on a classical horary board? I think not! I doubt anyone in
>the classical Western tradition even knew the word! Further, for
>those of you who prefer modern, I would suggest it's a
>conversation-stopping word more designed to feign knowledge than to
>actually say something. If you want to say "connection," then fine -
>but karma? The wonder of karma to modern astrology is that all sorts
>of statements can be made about karma that can never be verified, and
>THAT is definitely NOT what horary is about!
>---
>J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
>P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
>Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
>Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction
>
>

Thread:	Freewill in the horary chart
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 02:40:07 -0800

Angela,

I understand the idea of freewill as implying, to some extent, an
indetrminate future - a future that can be shaped by the individual.

In horary, we are seeking answers about the outcome of a matter. Some
charts will not give answers about outcomes but contain various "barriers"
to judgement. At this point in my development as a horary astrologer, I
have the philosophical viewpoint that these "barriers" are indicators that
not enough action has occurred in a matter to pre-determine the outcome in
relation to the life of an individual. It implies, to me, that more time
must pass for, perhaps, several potential outcomes to be narrowed down to
one eventuality. This "narrowing down" might be a product of the choices
the individual/querent has or has not made in his or her life leading up to
a given point in relation to asking a question.

I see the Cosmos as a living Being and of which we are all part and, if God
as an entity exists, I imagine the Cosmos operating as both a gigantic
switchboard to which horary astrology allows us a direct line which provides
a means for us to communicate with that Entity and also provides us with the
symbolic language inherent in its Body. But like all materially manifest
things the Cosmos as a divine language has its limits. Man and the stars
being both God's creations are, in effect, one within that Creator. The
life of the Cosmos is expressed in cycles where an outward journey from a
point will end in its return to that point so this can be seen as
pre-destination. But, within those cycles many things may happen along the
way. "Fixity" can appear "flexible" at the level of manifestation at which
we exist on the earth because of this phenomenon. However, in true Cosmic
terms, everything may very well be pre-ordained on a grander and more
profound scale than our earth bound brains can imagine. So, essentially,
the great overall plan is pre-ordained but it is still possible to shape
its expression in little ways through the, by comparison, small vehicles of
our individual lifetimes using choice at the earth bound level. (In
physics, there is a good analogy for this dual divine quality of
pre-ordination and free will: light behaves as both a particle and a wave.)
In the end, having come from the Source, we will all find our way back to
It, even though some routes we may take may be more tortuous than others -
hence the appearance of free will within a pre-ordained World.

The above forms just the beginnings of a theory which has arisen out of my
personal belief system and I would deeply appreciate yours and others
further thoughts on this.

Pat.

Thread:	North Node in the first house-reply
From:	Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Wed, 5 Mar 1997 22:21:23 -0800

At 06:56 AM 3/5/97 +0000, J. Lee Lehman wrote:
>
>Two points:
>
>1. Nodes are NOT planets, they are points, specifically the points of
>intersection between the plane of the ecliptic and the plane of the
>astronomical body in question.
>
>2. Karma on a classical horary board? I think not! I doubt anyone in
>the classical Western tradition even knew the word! Further, for
>those of you who prefer modern, I would suggest it's a
>conversation-stopping word more designed to feign knowledge than to
>actually say something. If you want to say "connection," then fine -
>but karma? The wonder of karma to modern astrology is that all sorts
>of statements can be made about karma that can never be verified, and
>THAT is definitely NOT what horary is about!

Great Reply - it's also not what contemporary/psych astrology is about but
it seems to have stuck to some blankets!
Even karma in its spirito/religio sense is totally misinterpreted as cause
and effect!

However since Nodes feature in horary in some way, I'd personally be
interested in your interpetation of their application and 'meaning' when the
Nodal axis is close to the Asc (quesitor) in the horary chart. The
'decision' to ask the question when the Node is on the Asc must mean something?

Linda Reid
>

Thread:	Nodes
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 01:23:07 -0800

Hi Carol, re your reply about the nodes affecting the house/planet they
touch with the relevant natures ascribed to them by Lilly, viz NN = Jupiter/
Venus; SN = Mars/Saturn - would you think that is why recent weeks have
seemed to be so difficult for so many people (at least in my neck of the woods)
because Saturn has been hanging around the South Node for so long? And that
maybe it is't just the onset of Spring which is bringing a lightening of
issues, but more likely the fact that Saturn is now separating from SN?

I am just interested to know how literally such interpretation of the Nodes
can be taken because Saturn conjunct the SN has been a universal configuration,
not an individualistic one.

Regards

Angela

Thread:	North Node in the first house-reply
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 01:15:09 -0800

re Nodal interpretation on 'decision' to ask something
Good question, Linda, I will be interested in any replies to this also.

Regards

Angela

Thread:	??
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 00:40:08 -0800

I'm impressed Joanne!! Thanks for both saving and forwarding this, was there
another one I sent later?

Regards

Angela

Thread:	??
From:	nmu6970@iac.co.jp (NMU)	Date:	Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:55:13 -0800

Angela Reeve wrote:

>...I do feel that a chart should tell the whole story if one is skilled

>enough to read it, including the vagaries of freewill

Is this possible? Although I am no expert on horary astrology, IMO it seems
that it is impossible to see the "whole situation" just as it is impossible
to describe the ENTIRETY of a human being through the natal chart. No matter
how good our tools are, how wide in application or how detailed, they are
always limited.

>otherwise, what's the point?

The point, surely, is that we have SOME insight into a problem/question.

Warmest Regards,

Neil Urquhart

Thread:	??
From:	pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)	Date:	Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:42:04 -0800

>Hi Angela,

The point you raise is interesting - as and when I have the time,
and feasible, I will go back to my 1991 charts and see if the `covert' issue
is shown. However, even if this concealment of the emergency meeting is in
the charts, it is doubtful I would have written about such `covert' action.
Similar to when I have seen various resignations regarding various members
of parliament I have had to be extremely careful with what I have written.
Although these are public issues involving people in the public arena, as
astrologers, I still feel we must be careful not to encroach upon public
lives. While journalist can and do, and get away with it, IMO astrologers
need to box more carefully.

You wrote:
".......it is the age-old debate of how can there be freewill if one

>can predict what is going to happen, and, conversely, how can there be such
a
>thing as prediction if freewill is operational."

Absolutely. However, some would argue that while ones destiny is
written - how one copes with that destiny is freewill!
>
> "However, at the end of the day, Horary is used to discover unknown
facts, >so I do feel that a chart should tell the whole story if one is
skilled
>enough to read it, including the vagaries of freewill, otherwise, what's
the
>point?"

With regard to the above I am NOT a horary astrologer, I specialize
in mundane. However, I do find the horary postings interesting.

>
>Regards

>
>Patricia
>
>

Thread:	??? I need your insight - Julienne's father comes home.
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 5 Mar 1997 12:16:44 -0800

In a message dated 97-03-04 21:34:16 EST, you write:
<< "shall I move
dad" question that Julienne asked in January. >>

I missed the original question in January and did not look at the chart until
now when I know the outcome. Just a few thoughts:

Juliene is the Moon (Cancer rising) in the 9th in Pisces. Moon occupies the
6th of the 4th of the father, so she is concerned about father's 6th house
state of health & illness. This is repeated by 4th ruler Mercury in the
radical sixth of illness.

Will father come home? Father's 4th is the radical 7th ruled by Saturn.
Mercury is past aspect to Saturn, and mars in the 4th is also past aspect to
Saturn. Mercury is also separating from a square to Mars. All these
recently separating aspects may indicate a recent separation from home but
give no indication about a return (since none apply).

Mercury (father) will conjoin the 7th cusp (4th of 4th) in about 7 degrees
suggesting a possible return in 7 weeks (measured after 1/12/97, the date of
the chart)) which would get him home the first week in March.

Saturn rules the radical 9th (father's 6th of health) and Mars rules the
radical 11th (father's 8th of death). Saturn also rules the radical 8th of
death. since Mercury (father) is separating from Mars and Saturn aspects,
concern about illness and death are not indicated.

The querent's wish for the father to come home is shown by the radical 11th
which is ruled by Mars and whose Almuten is the Sun. Querent is the Moon
which does not aspect Mars, but will sextile both Sun (querent's wish) and
eventually sextile Jupiter, the greater benefic, both indications that she
will get her wish.

I wish I had examined this chart before the fact, but maybe this Monday
morning quarterbacking will be of some value.

Tony

Thread:	??
From:	JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net>	Date:	Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:19:28 -0800

At 09:03 AM 3/5/97 +1100, Linda wrote:
>At 06:25 AM 3/4/97 +0000, Julienne wrote:
>>At 12:27 AM 3/4/97 +0000, Osmar Jardim wrote:
>>>Julienne wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I have a question. I had asked a horary of the List some weeks back, about
>>>> whether my father would come home or not. All the answers I received said,
>>>> "No.".
>>>>
>>>> My father is home.
>>>>
>>>> Do we look at what went wrong?
>>>>
>No, I don't think that's necessary. Your question was 'Should my father come
>home' not 'Will my father come home' There is a big difference.

I saved the posts in question (I save too many but here it came in handy).
Julienne's question, verbatim, was:

>Will I succeed in bringing my father home with me (that part is important -
>that I be with him), and is it the best thing for my father?

And since Angela Reeve could not find her reply, I pulled that out of my big
hat, but the chart data was not included:

>Resent-Message-Id: <9701140205.AA20216@mail1.halcyon.com>
>Comments: Authenticated sender is <cwiggers@mail.halcyon.com>
>Resent-From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>Resent-To: "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>Resent-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:06:55 +8
>Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:00:37 EST
>From: "Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)"
<usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: I need your insight
>
>Hi Julienne, I have erected a chart, not for your co-ordinates, but for the

>time I understood your dilemma as it does make more sense to me that a
chart
>should be for when the astrologer understands the subject matter. Here goes

>....

>
>You are obviously going through a very difficult time (Saturn in Aries),
and
>Saturn in the first house indicates that there could be obstruction to your

>proposed course of action; on the other hand, there are fixed signs on all

>four angles which show that something is already underway and is unlikely
to
>be stopped. Saturn (your sig) does not make any aspect, but the Moon is

>applying to sextile Neptune and is moving towards conjunction Saturn, plus

>being in an intercepted sign, I feel indicates a covert plot afoot,
however, I
>think there are developments which will alter the anticipated situation.

>
>Your father's sig is Mercury, and there does appear to be a significant
change
>taking place for him within a '3', indeed, even as we speak, I would say
his
>circumstances have altered, this could be indicative of his state of
health,
>or maybe you have decided to act quickly due to anticipated opposition.

>
>In very brief conclusion, I would say that your father's condition will

>dictate how events should best proceed, if his health allows you to move
him,
>then I would say that is what you will do, but if his condition
deteriorates
>then you will know it is best for you to give him all your love and support

>whilst remaining in the hospice. There is a speedy change shown and one
which
>is already in progress; this will provide the signpost for you. At the
present
>moment a move does not look to be particularly adviseable, unless the chart
is
>saying you have already accomplished it (Mercury stationary). Unless you
have
>already taken matters into your own hands, I would say tarry a little
while,
>let the dust settle in order to see clearer the best way forward; and at
the
>end of the day, maybe it is up to your father to say where he would prefer
to
>be. Is he able to make that decision? Today (13th) could be decisive as

>Mercury turns direct.

>
>All the best, Julienne, you are going through a difficult time, but things

>should lighten a little from around the 22 Jan.

>
>Regards

>
>Angela

>
>
>>

Thread:	Ie
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 5 Mar 1997 07:00:24 -0800

In a message dated 97-03-05 02:44:01 EST, you write:

<< If you use Internet Explorer by microsoft......be sure that you go to
the microsoft site and pick up the new patch. >>

Carol,

Can you give the address of the patch. I'm having a hard time locating it.

Tony

Thread:	Tony Louis is missing!
From:	"P. Langeveld" <Langeveld.P@net.hcc.nl>	Date:	Wed, 5 Mar 1997 06:44:38 -0800

Hi Linda,

Basing myself on the assumption that it is the right thing to do I made the
chart at the moment of reading your letter i.e. 05/03/1997 at 10.54.30
GMT at Aagtdorp Holland 004E42 and 52N41 - AC 05.30 Cancer MC 29.26 Aqu.

Reading this chart I come to the following conclusions :
1. You 'll get your Ant.Louis book back for sure;
2. It *may be* in the possession of a lean male elderly person of medium length,
dark hair, little beard, bad humoured and quarrelsome;
3. Though this does not work out always he could be living in eastern
direction;
4. After four and a half day the Moon (you and the book) is making a conjunction
with Neptune being the dispositor of Saturn (the man who borrowed the book)
and a triangle with the node in your fourth house so I think you 'll have
it back at about the tenth of March;
If the direct Moon - Saturn sextile would do it, it would be after 12,5 days
i.e. the 17th of March.

Anxious to hear the outcome and wishing you luck.

Paul Langeveld - Langeveld.P@net.HCC.nl

Linda wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I lend books to my students and generally get them back, but someone
> borrowed my Tony Louis Horary book and all deny having it. I know I took it

Thread:	??
From:	pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)	Date:	Wed, 5 Mar 1997 05:59:40 -0800

>To: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>
>From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
>Subject: Re: ??
>
>>Hi Julienne,
>
> You wrote:
>> "When I spoke of the "intuitive process", I wasn't referring to Susie Q
> looking at a chart and guessing - I was referring to the educated
intuition
>> of the professional astrologer. I think that is a step up in
intuition. :)"
>
> IMO "educated intuition" is stiffled by rigid rules - even those of
the professional astrologer.
>
> ".......the question about getting my father home (and I don't have
a copy of it because my computer crashed and I haven't retrieved
>> the info yet), ...."
>
> Here it is...............
>> My question, at 4:45 pm, Cedar Grove, New Jersey, USA, January 12th,
1997, is:
>
> Will I succeed in bringing my father home with me (that part is
important -
> that I be with him), and is it the best thing for my father?
>
You then continued:

>> " ..... when someone wants me to give them a "yes" or a "no" to a horary
>> question."
>
> This is part of my point about astrology not being deterministic.
A "yes or no" answer leaves the participant no options. Effectively, it
takes the decision making process, based on additional information acquired
through astrology, away from the person/s concerned. In other words,
astrology then ceases to empower. Accordingly, it then becomes useless and
the enquirer may as well have gone to the local fortune teller.
>
> ".......It's the same feeling I ge when someone asks me in a
regular counseling session whether s/he is going to, for instance,
get a divorce or not. We (I) can see the likelihood, but is my job
just to play the clever astrologer and say "Yes! - I see a divorce
in your future!" (Bows all around) - or is it my job to explain
Pluto and Neptune and Uranus and Saturn transits and progression,
>> etc., and help the client understand the options and possibilities and
> "infuences" (used loosely) at work, so s/he can assume
responsibility for
> events, and not be simply buffeted by Fate? I think my (our) job is the
> latter - and I am afraid I feel the same job pertains in horary."
>
> Referring to the horary part of the above paragraph I am not in a
position to give you a considered response. With regard to the first part,
for me it is a matter of one's consulting technique. For instance, I very
rarely use the names of planets during consultations - they are meaningless
to non-astrologers, nor do I specifically refer to "transit" or
"progressions". I talk about background situations, periods, timescales and
so forth.
>
> "......horary ....It would be easier than testing natal work."
>
> Again no comment on horary testing. Personally, I am not in
agreement with any form of artificial testing either through the media or on
the internet. Referring to natal - I do not agree that it is difficult to
test. Whether natal/mundane/electional astrology the proof is when your
clients call you to let you know the outcome of what you've said, and
whether they keep coming back year after year, or indeed contact you after a
lapse of several years. When this happens you know you are on the right
road and that your interpretations are correct. Again, IMO the question is
not whether astrology works - we know it does. The question is more to do
with the skill of the interpreters.
>>
>> "Thank you for your words about my father...he is speaking and
understanding
>> well enough now to be able to make his own legal decisions. It's amazing
what some care and attention can do. Doesn't amaze me - but it seems to
amaze some..."
>
> Well done!
>
> Patricia
>>
>>
>

Thread:	North Node in the first house-reply
From:	"J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix16.ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Wed, 5 Mar 1997 03:56:42 -0800

Prafulla Gang <prafulla@emirates.net.ae> wrote:

> Moon's nodes are called karmic planets and their interpretation should not
> be taken as house placement. While looking at both the nodes- we must look
> at the followings;
> Sign placed
> Aspects/conjunctions with other planets
> Dispositor of node (its strength and functional nature in the chart)- and
> where is it placed

Two points:

1. Nodes are NOT planets, they are points, specifically the points of
intersection between the plane of the ecliptic and the plane of the
astronomical body in question.

2. Karma on a classical horary board? I think not! I doubt anyone in
the classical Western tradition even knew the word! Further, for
those of you who prefer modern, I would suggest it's a
conversation-stopping word more designed to feign knowledge than to
actually say something. If you want to say "connection," then fine -
but karma? The wonder of karma to modern astrology is that all sorts
of statements can be made about karma that can never be verified, and
THAT is definitely NOT what horary is about!
---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction

Thread:	??
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 03:00:59 -0800

At 08:12 AM 3/4/97 +0000, Angela Reeve UK(UTC
00:00) wrote:
>With the greatest of respect, Julienne, I thought I had said it looked as

>though you would carry through with your plan.

Angela,

If I have made a mistake, Angela, I apologize profusely. Would you mind
sending me a copy of your post - as mine is lost in my computer crash?

Thank you....

Julienne

Thread:	??
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Thu, 6 Mar 1997 02:59:31 -0800

At 10:03 PM 3/4/97 +0000, Linda wrote:
>At 06:25 AM 3/4/97 +0000, Julienne wrote:

>>>> Do we look at what went wrong?
>>>>
>No, I don't think that's necessary. Your question was 'Should my father come
>home' not 'Will my father come home' There is a big difference.

Actually, Linda, my question was "Will I succeed in bringing my father home
with me (that part is important - that I be with him), and is it the best
thing for my father?"

By the way, the reason it was important that I be with him, is that there is
no one else to look after him.

I'm not sure that anyone answered the secondpart of the question - most
focused on the "will I succeed?"

>>My own experience is that horary is largely intuitive. If it's more
>>than that, then we should be able to take the chart and see what we missed
>>why no one answered my question in the affirmative.
>
>If you have been practising horary astrology from an intuitive stance, it's
>little wonder you have reservations. Intuition is fine for psychics but
>horary has specific paradigms. One of them is in the phrasing of the
question.

As I explained in another post, I was not speaking of intuition without
solid knowledge, but of educated intuition, such as the medical doctor
brings to a diagnosis, for example. I think it's well understood that that
type of intuition is an important component of any scientist's work.

>Good health to you and your father,

Thank you,

Julienne

Thread:	??
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Wed, 5 Mar 1997 01:41:29 -0800

Hi Pat, I do agree with you about the freewill interplay, but couldn't it
be argued that if other facets are going to affect the outcome, be they
covert or not, the chart should still show them? Horary, after all said and
done, as any divinitory/predictive system, is consulted to shown the hidden
facts that are as yet unknown. However, that opens up a whole new can of
worms because it is the age-old debate of how can there be freewill if one
can predict what is going to happen, and, conversely, how can there be such a
thing as prediction if freewill is operational. It does seem to be something
of a misnomer!

However, at the end of the day, Horary is used to discover unknown facts,
so I do feel that a chart should tell the whole story if one is skilled
enough to read it, including the vagaries of freewill, otherwise, what's the
point?

Regards

Angela

Thread:	North Node in the first house-reply
From:	Prafulla Gang <prafulla@emirates.net.ae>	Date:	Tue, 4 Mar 1997 19:49:59 -0800

Hi
Moon's nodes are called karmic planets and their interpretation should not
be taken as house placement. While looking at both the nodes- we must look
at the followings;
Sign placed
Aspects/conjunctions with other planets
Dispositor of node (its strength and functional nature in the chart)- and
where is it placed

The effects of moon's nodes can not be taken as of other planets. They are
very different and very distinct as predictive tool. Vedic astrology gives
lots of importance to both the nodes.

Prafulla Gang
-----Original Message-----
From: harris [SMTP:harris@interalpha.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 1997 9:01 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: North Node in the first house

Dear All,

Does anyone have experience of interpreting questions where the north node
is close to the Ascendant or in the first house and the implications that
this has for the validity of the question, itself?

Pat.

Thread:	Murder
From:	kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com>	Date:	Tue, 4 Mar 1997 16:45:37 -0800

Status: U

Hi ya'll,
A friend dropped in this afternoon. She was very upset. Yesterday as
she was walking to her car after work, she heard three gun shots close
by. She looked and saw a man running away and another on the ground in
the last moment of his life. We talked awhile. Then she wanted me to
cast a chart and see what it looked like. So I cast an event chart.
The time was 5:10 pm, CST. 3/03/1997 90.12 w long. 32.18 n lat. time
zone 6 hr. west location Jackson, MS
The partile aspects were interesting. If anyone is interested there it
is.
Kent

Thread:	Tony Louis is missing!
From:	Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Tue, 4 Mar 1997 14:59:35 -0800

Status: U

Hi all,

I lend books to my students and generally get them back, but someone
borrowed my Tony Louis Horary book and all deny having it. I know I took it
to a network talk on horary along with a few other books which have all been
returned and I remember which people were there, so I know of 15
possibilities, all of whom say they haven't seen it. I'm asking the
question openly, so that anyone who'd like to answer can use their own
coordinates. "Who has got my book?" I'm asking at 9.24 am AEDT (-11) in
Wynyard Tasmania 40S59 145E41. I think I'm too close to these people to
find a proper description without letting my suspicious mind creep in and it
will be interesting to see if different locations for the charts come up
with a consistent description. ( for the Asc - my description -Pisces Sun
/Mercury - Aries Moon - Scorpio rising -Sagg intercepted in 1st -
unaspected Jupiter is a dominant planet. Neptune on the MC.

Love to all, where has everyone been?

Linda Reid

Thread:	??
From:	Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:16:45 -0800

Status: U

At 06:25 AM 3/4/97 +0000, Julienne wrote:
>At 12:27 AM 3/4/97 +0000, Osmar Jardim wrote:
>>Julienne wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a question. I had asked a horary of the List some weeks back, about
>>> whether my father would come home or not. All the answers I received said,
>>> "No.".
>>>
>>> My father is home.
>>>
>>> Do we look at what went wrong?
>>>
No, I don't think that's necessary. Your question was 'Should my father come
home' not 'Will my father come home' There is a big difference.

>My own experience is that horary is largely intuitive. If it's more
>than that, then we should be able to take the chart and see what we missed
>why no one answered my question in the affirmative.

If you have been practising horary astrology from an intuitive stance, it's
little wonder you have reservations. Intuition is fine for psychics but
horary has specific paradigms. One of them is in the phrasing of the question.

Good health to you and your father,

Linda

>
>

Thread:	??? I need your insight - correction
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:00:18 -0800

Status: U

"The position of Saturn or Mars in the 10th, and they peregrine or
unfortunate or the South Node in that house, the artist hardly gets any
credit for the question."
William Lilly's aphorism #3 (CA298.

For those who can read it, the chart below is the chart of the "shall I move
dad" question that Julienne asked in January. You will notice that Saturn is
ruler of the 7th house(the astrologer) and in a partile conjunction with the
south node, and is placed in it's fall at the MC. Saturn is also in
opposition to mars and in partile square to the ruler of the quesited, and
the end of the matter the fourth ruler, mercury.

Seems to me that Mr. Lilly is correct again.

bring dad home - julienne horary
12 Jan 1997
3.45 P.M. (5)
74.14 WEST
40.51 NORTH
23H 17M 34S
Regiomontanus
25 ARI 18 PIS 23 AQU
* SA02Ari * *
SN02Ari *
* * MO14Pis *
08 GEM * 02 AQU
* * * * *
* * UR03Aqu *
* * * * *
* * *
* * ** * ** * * JU27Cpr
* * NE27Cpr
* * SU22Cpr
10 CAN ****************** ******************* 10 CPR
* *
* *
* * ** * ** * *
* * * VE03Cpr
* *PF01Vir* * * ME02Cpr
* * PL04Sag *
* * * * *
02 LEO * 08 SAG
* * *
* MA02Lib
* * NN02Lib *
23 LEO 18 VIR 25 LIB

Julienne said on 3/4:
> "I have real reservations about horary astrology, and despite having been a
>professional astrologer for 35 years, I have never been able to find horary
>to work with any type of consistency. I hardly think anyone expects anyone
>to get *all* right answers, but if there is any value to horary, then it
>should surely be expected that there would be a high percentage of "right"
>answers. My own experience is that horary is largely intuitive. If it's more
>than that, then we should be able to take the chart and see what we missed -
>why no one answered my question in the affirmative.
>I don't intend my question as a criticism, just as a professional challenge
>and point of interest. Why didn't anyone see the question with a positive
>outcome?"

There is also the corrected time, as I recall several people chose to use
their own time and co-ordinates as the time when they came to understand the
question.

Julienne's 1/13/1997 post:
>To: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>
>>I am resending this post because I need to make two changes. 1) I have added
>>the lat. and long. below as there are two Cedar Groves in New Jersey.
>>
>>Second, I wrote 4:45. but meant 3:45 p.m....
>>
>>I'm sorry...but my brain is not functioning at its best now - .
>>
>>>As you know, my mother died this week. My father is also in Hospice, which
>>means he has been given less than 6 months to live. He has survived so much
>>though, that I am not sure whether he really has so little time to live. I
>>just don't know.
>>>
>>>I would like to bring him home, but don't feel very objective about my
>>analysis of any charts on this. Would you mind helping?
>>>
>>>My question, at 4:45 pm, ( correct to 3:45 pm) Cedar Grove, New Jersey, (
>>40 n 51, 74 w 14), USA, January 12th, 1997, is:
>>>
>>>Will I succeed in bringing my father home with me (that part is important -
>>that I be with him), and is it the best thing for my father?
>>>
>>>Hope that's not too complicated a question...
>>>
>>>I have to act quickly, I think, if I am to be able to do this, as I have
>>brothers who do not want him home.
>>>
>>>Thank you,
>>>
>>>Julienne
>>>
>>>Thank you,

Thread:	North Node in the first house
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Tue, 4 Mar 1997 09:01:41 -0800

Dear All,

Does anyone have experience of interpreting questions where the north node
is close to the Ascendant or in the first house and the implications that
this has for the validity of the question, itself?

Pat.

Thread:	??
From:	RG4invirgo@aol.com	Date:	Tue, 4 Mar 1997 07:53:32 -0800

I would like to have time of the question to see what went wrong with Horary.
One thing is for sure Horary works so let me know question and the place the
horary was performed thanks RG

Thread:	Patrick McNeil
From:	Osmar Jardim <osjardim@cwbone.bsi.com.br>	Date:	Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:18:43 -0800

harris wrote:
>
> Tony,
>
> I read your e-mail about the missing Fordham student Patrick McNeill while I
> was en route to a meeting yesterday morning (3rd March) and asked a question
> about him as follows:
>
> Where's Patrick McNeill? 3.3.1997 10 15 27 am Winchester, England 51n04 1w19.
>
> Gemini Rising gives Mercury as Patrick's significator following Lilly pp151-152.
>
> V of C Moon in Sagittarius - Sagittairus placing lessens effect of void of
> course moon which could indicate a hopeless situation in the matter of the
> question.
>
> Mercury, his significator, in the 11th, no harm should have come to him.
>
> Mercury will sextile Jupiter ruler of 11th in the actual ephemeris on 22nd
> March so news should be heard of him then.
>
> His significator in Pisces, northwest from where he was last seen, in the
> 11th house, southeast by south and occupying the eastern quadrant(!!). It
> doesn't seem possible that he coudl be in every direction at once .....
> (this would, of course, be really hedging your bets). Mercury in Pisces
> signifies he may be in watery places or in a house near water. Lilly
> suggests watermills, rivers, fishponds or springs where birds gather.
>
> His significator is in its fall but separating from a conjunction of Venus
> ruler of 6th which might indicate recovering from health problems (disposed
> of by Jupiter ruler of 11th - maybe with friends?) Combust to ruler of 4th,
> Sun which doesn't look helpful and may indicate something which cannot be
> seen relating to the end of the matter but Moon will change signs before the
> conjunction can be perfected. I think when the Moon changes sign it can
> show a new development in the situation - at any rate a change of some kind
> which might merit another question in the course of the development of the
> matter. He disappeared after agreeing to escort a girl home so Mercury
> separating from conjunction Venus (girl) in 11th going to combust of Sun
> ruler of 4th but in 11th seems to describe this.
>
> I notice that Part of Fortune is conjunct Scheat .....
>
> Let me know when/if you hear what has happened - I hope all turns out well
> eventually.
>
> Pat.
>
> PS. I think it was Osmar who recommended the 9th for missing persons and I
> would be interested to have Osmar's thoughts on this, too.

Thank you Pat for the oportunity of being of service.
You asked "Where is Patrick Mc Neil" and casted above chart.
According to a reading I will explain later on this email, Patrick is 50 and
a half miles South South East, from the local he was last seen. I wish somebody
with access to a map could tell us the cities or the localities that are there.
In that locality look for him on EAST direction. He is in a middle level or
middle height place.

I use Placidus. There is an advice I received from Gilbert Navarro.
He heard it from Marc Edmond Jones at the 1976 AFA Convention in Las Vegas.
Mr. Jones that his best advice to anyone in astrology was
FIND ONE METHOD AND STICK TO IT.

In this chart, Mercury rules Pat., the one who is asking the question;

The missing person is ruled by the ninth House, 04 CAPRICORN 52, Saturn.

We need to know the latitude of Saturn, the planet that rules Patrick,
the missing person, as to wether North or South, for the basic distance
he is. Saturn is +00 degrees 42min , North.
In addition, we note Saturn is in a succeedent house (11th).

For the basic distance, we must find the difference in degrees between
the Moon's degree and Saturn, whether is aspect or not = 101 degrees 07
minutes. (Moon at 25SA45 and Saturn at 06AR52). This difference is to be
multiplied by the number determined by the latitude and the type of house
the planet in question is (See page 72 of SIMPLIFIED HORARY ASTROLOGY).

Zero latitude and succedent house = half a mile;
101,07 x 0,5 = 50,54 miles.

The direction of the missing person will be determined by the house where
Saturn, the planet that rules him is located, the 11th house . Referring
to page 74 os SIMPLIFIED HORARY ASTROLOGY , 11th, S.S.E.

HAVING FOUND DISTANCE AND DIRECTION , 50,5 miles S.S.E., the sign Saturn
is in will tell us what direction in that area we will find Patrick.
Fire - Aries, EAST; the fire signs denote middle level or middle height.

Let's see the developments. Thank you for reading.

Osmar Jardim
osjardim@cwbone.bsi.com.br
Rua Joao Ferro, 114 82030-370 Curitiba - PR BRASIL Tel.: 55 41 272-5246

Thread:	??
From:	pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)	Date:	Mon, 3 Mar 1997 23:59:20 -0800

>To: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>
>From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
>Subject: Re: ??
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>>Hi Julienne,
>
> Although I responded to your original posting it was not on a
horary basis. Perhaps the answer to your question lies in the fact that
everyone has free-will, whereas horary, in some respects, seems rather
deterministic.
>
> Moreover, while astrology can, and does, give the flavour of
events, freedom of choice plays an important part in the unfoldment of any
event. For instance, my monthly astrological forecast dated February 11,
1991 stated that the UK banks were in difficulties and there was a risk of a
run on them February/March 1991. It didn't happen. Why - because the Bank
of England took covert measures to avert the problem. In fact, it was not
until May 30,1993 The Sunday Times revealed the truth and full extent of the
problem that occured in the banking system February 1991. The Sunday Times
article categorically stated that the Bank of England "had held a covert
emergency meetings" early in February to shore up and stave off a possible
run on the high street banks.
>
> Although the `horary' deductions to your question may well have
been correct, the same result may not have shown up on your personal chart.
And, then there is the unknown element of the other players involved and
free-will.
>
> I feel I write the above advisedly, having had my forecasting
monitored by a national newspaper over a five year period, during which time
the success rate of my forecasting was consistently between 75 - 80 percent.
>
> On a non astrological basis - I am delighted you achieved your wish
and managed to take your father home. I trust all is working out well.
>
> With all good wishes.
>
> Patricia Hamilton
>
>You wrote:
> I have a question. I had asked a horary of the List some weeks
back, about whether my father would come home or not. All the
answers I received said,
> "No.".
>>
>> My father is home.
>>
>> Do we look at what went wrong?
>>
>> Julienne
>>
>>
>>
>

Thread:	??
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Mon, 3 Mar 1997 22:26:12 -0800

At 12:27 AM 3/4/97 +0000, Osmar Jardim wrote:
>Julienne wrote:
>>
>> I have a question. I had asked a horary of the List some weeks back, about
>> whether my father would come home or not. All the answers I received said,
>> "No.".
>>
>> My father is home.
>>
>> Do we look at what went wrong?
>>
>> Julienne
>
>Julienne,
>
>I wasn't around when this question was posed. I droped in when you told
>us your daddy was back home.
>Now he is back home. Wasn't this what you wanted?
>
>If horary astrologers got all right answers, nobody would afford paying
>us.

Hi Osmar,

Yes, it certainly is what I wanted, and what my father wanted. However, the
purpose of my question was to see if we could see why all the responses were
wrong.

I have real reservations about horary astrology, and despite having been a
professional astrologer for 35 years, I have never been able to find horary
to work with any type of consistency. I hardly think anyone expects anyone
to get *all* right answers, but if there is any value to horary, then it
should surely be expected that there would be a high percentage of "right"
answers. My own experience is that horary is largely intuitive. If it's more
than that, then we should be able to take the chart and see what we missed -
why no one answered my question in the affirmative.

I don't intend my question as a criticism, just as a professional challenge
and point of interest. Why didn't anyone see the question with a positive
outcome?

Cheers,

Julienne

By the way, my father is doing spectacularly - seems like a new person.

Thread:	??
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:14:15 -0800

Actually, Julienne, I do agree with you. I love horary, and continue to both
study and practise it, but I know exactly what you mean about being unsure as
to its true relevance - and I do apologise if that sounds like heresy to other
folk out there!!

The trouble is that going over charts as an aftermath is easy. There are
always going to be countless people with countless reasons as to why it was
plainly apparent what the outcome would be, and how clear the chart is, etc,
etc, but where were they before the event? That is the difficult bit. Making a
judgement afterwards is interesting, but it is also easy compared to putting
your neck on the line and committing to a judgement before the outcome is
known. Consequently, yes, I do agree with your sentiments, and,
nonetheless, would also be interested in a post-mortem, but can't help thinking
that a chart will always fit when the outcome is known, because you know which
'avenues' to explore; which aspects will be relevant; and a whole host of
other features which will suddenly be thrown into the limelight because they
are so applicable but, I still maintain, it is pointless unless they can be
seen before the event, that is the whole point of horary. OK, they can be
seen, but it is the recognition that counts, and maybe that is where your
point about intuition comes in. It is rare that a chart is so clear as to
shout the answer out loud, usually the chart has quite a few 'interesting
foibles'; to be able to accurately interpret such 'foibles' AFTER the event is
plain sailing, although interesting and generally quite impressive.

With regard to my own chart, I didn't use your co-ordinates, because I feel
that it is the time and place of the astrologer which counts, but that is
purely what makes sense to me, however, I don't believe I have retained my
chart, although, as I said in my previous posting to you, I thought I had
answered in the affirmative and said that your father would come home and you
would follow through with your plan, although there would be difficulties and
you needed to truly consider what would be in your father's best interests,
but to the best of my recollection, it was not a negative answer.It's 'Sod's
Law' that out of the veritable plethora of charts and interpretations that are
kept, you can bet your bottom dollar it is the one you don't keep that you
want!!

Hey-ho ....

Regards

Angela

Thread:	??
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:12:25 -0800

With the greatest of respect, Julienne, I thought I had said it looked as
though you would carry through with your plan.

Regards
Angela

Thread:	??
From:	Osmar Jardim <osjardim@cwbone.bsi.com.br>	Date:	Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:55:26 -0800

Julienne wrote:
>
> I have a question. I had asked a horary of the List some weeks back, about
> whether my father would come home or not. All the answers I received said,
> "No.".
>
> My father is home.
>
> Do we look at what went wrong?
>
> Julienne

Jukienne,

I wasn't around when this question was posed. I droped in when you told
us your daddy was back home.
Now he is back home. Wasn't this what you wanted?

If horary astrologers got all right answers, nobody would afford paying
us.

Osmar Jardim
osjardim@cwbone.bsi.com.br
Rua Joao Ferro, 114 82030-370 Curitiba - PR BRASIL Tel.: 55 41 272-5246

Thread:	Patrick McNeil
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:13:19 -0800

Tony,

I read your e-mail about the missing Fordham student Patrick McNeill while I
was en route to a meeting yesterday morning (3rd March) and asked a question
about him as follows:

Where's Patrick McNeill? 3.3.1997 10 15 27 am Winchester, England 51n04 1w19.

Gemini Rising gives Mercury as Patrick's significator following Lilly pp151-152.

V of C Moon in Sagittarius - Sagittairus placing lessens effect of void of
course moon which could indicate a hopeless situation in the matter of the
question.

Mercury, his significator, in the 11th, no harm should have come to him.

Mercury will sextile Jupiter ruler of 11th in the actual ephemeris on 22nd
March so news should be heard of him then.

His significator in Pisces, northwest from where he was last seen, in the
11th house, southeast by south and occupying the eastern quadrant(!!). It
doesn't seem possible that he coudl be in every direction at once .....
(this would, of course, be really hedging your bets). Mercury in Pisces
signifies he may be in watery places or in a house near water. Lilly
suggests watermills, rivers, fishponds or springs where birds gather.

His significator is in its fall but separating from a conjunction of Venus
ruler of 6th which might indicate recovering from health problems (disposed
of by Jupiter ruler of 11th - maybe with friends?) Combust to ruler of 4th,
Sun which doesn't look helpful and may indicate something which cannot be
seen relating to the end of the matter but Moon will change signs before the
conjunction can be perfected. I think when the Moon changes sign it can
show a new development in the situation - at any rate a change of some kind
which might merit another question in the course of the development of the
matter. He disappeared after agreeing to escort a girl home so Mercury
separating from conjunction Venus (girl) in 11th going to combust of Sun
ruler of 4th but in 11th seems to describe this.

I notice that Part of Fortune is conjunct Scheat .....

Let me know when/if you hear what has happened - I hope all turns out well
eventually.

Pat.

PS. I think it was Osmar who recommended the 9th for missing persons and I
would be interested to have Osmar's thoughts on this, too.

X-cs:
From: Self <cwiggers>
To: @LILLY.PML
Subject: february letters
Reply-to: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:12:15 +8

Dear members of the Lilly List,
If you missed any of the mail from last month it is now posted at the
horary site in a zip file for you to pick up. All other mail from
the beginning of the mail list is located there also.

Our server, and several others around the country are out from time
to time due to severe weather conditions so there is always a chance
that there will be days without mail. In this last case there was
very little mail coming throught, some very heavy snowfall and
avalanche danger plus I had the flu. Everything is caught up now
until the next bizarre weather pattern.

Thanks for your patience.
Love & Light
Carol

Thread:	??
From:	JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@qis.net>	Date:	Mon, 3 Mar 1997 15:38:29 -0800

At 11:30 PM 3/2/97 -0200, Osmar Jardim wrote:
>kent lambert wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ya'll,
>> What's going on? No one seems to be posting, or am I missing them?
>> Kent
>
>This phenomena, low activity in the list, has been happening since
>one or two days before last full Moon.
>The traffic was low in HEAL-L, WILLIAM_LILLY, AMORC-M, AMORC-L,
>Owner-Rosacruz-digest, The Nexus Group, Solstix and CROMAAT.
>Does anyone know why?

Oddly enough, the Freedom Astrology list just went from medium-slow to
super-heavy traffic at about that time. I don't know that very many people
on this and the other lists are also Freedom members so I can't say that
it's people busy on Freedom ignoring the other lists.

Jupiter was just hitting Freedom's ascendant at the Full Moon, with a trine
from transiting Mars and North Node in Libra. Uranus is creeping up on
Freedom's ascendant as well.

Is Saturn hitting the other lists at sensitive points?

-JoAnne

Thread:	Career question
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Mon, 3 Mar 1997 15:20:58 -0800

A psychologist colleague asked me whether he should stay in his current job
at a state hospital or look for a new job elsewhere. The state is cutting
back substantially on psychiatric services and there is talk of eliminating
the inpatient unit where he works. Here are the data:

Should I stay at my present job, or look for a job elsewhere?

03 Mar 1997 3.04 P.M. (5)
73.11 WEST 41.12 NORTH
ASC 12 Leo, MC 1 Taurus
Moon 1 Capricorn, Sun 13 Pisces (his natal sun is at 12 Pisces)
Venus at 5 Pisces on the Cusp of the 8th

My impression is that Moon sextile Venus (and eventually the sun) and trine
the MC is an argument to stay in his current job. What do others think? I'd
appreciate the feedback.

Tony

Thread:	??
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Mon, 3 Mar 1997 15:08:57 -0800

In a message dated 97-03-03 15:46:25 EST, you write:

<<
My father is home.

Do we look at what went wrong?
>>
Can you post the original data? I can't seem to find it in my computer.

Tony

Thread:	??
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Sun, 2 Mar 1997 23:40:37 -0800

I have a question. I had asked a horary of the List some weeks back, about
whether my father would come home or not. All the answers I received said,
"No.".

My father is home.

Do we look at what went wrong?

Julienne

Thread:	??
From:	Stan Price <mersey@groupz.net>	Date:	Sun, 2 Mar 1997 18:30:38 -0800

kent lambert wrote:
>
> Hi Ya'll,
> What's going on? No one seems to be posting, or am I missing them?
> Kent
Kent,
No one is posting as far as I can tell. Maybe that eclipse next Saturday
has all the trads scrambling for mundane interpretations of a
potentially catalytic event. Take a look at this scenario - Deng has
just died; Asia is in flux; and an eclipse is on the way! Maybe this
week we'll see some serious forecasting...

Umbrally yours,
Stan

Thread:	??
From:	Osmar Jardim <osjardim@cwbone.bsi.com.br>	Date:	Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:11:30 -0800

kent lambert wrote:
>
> Hi Ya'll,
> What's going on? No one seems to be posting, or am I missing them?
> Kent

This phenomena, low activity in the list, has been happening since
one or two days before last full Moon.
The traffic was low in HEAL-L, WILLIAM_LILLY, AMORC-M, AMORC-L,
Owner-Rosacruz-digest, The Nexus Group, Solstix and CROMAAT.
Does anyone know why?

Osmar Jardim
osjardim@cwbone.bsi.com.br
Rua Joao Ferro, 114 82030-370 Curitiba - PR BRASIL Tel.: 55 41 272-5246

Thread:	SUBJECT
From:	pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)	Date:	Sun, 2 Mar 1997 02:00:28 -0800

Status: U

Hi Carol,

For some reason I am not getting any `Wm Lilly' postings. Has the
list been suspended?

I must say I had a wonderful response to my request for help
regarding medical astrology. All the information forwarded to me was all
highly relevant and most valuable. With a little homework I will easily be
able to give a background talk on the subject having more than enough
material to fill the allotted 90 minutes.

Of course, on this subject I've been in contact with all the people
concerned directly - but would like to take this opportunity to endorse what
a terrific forum this is - and to acknowledge all the participants who make
this list so worthwhile.

kind regards,

Patricia Hamilton

Thread:	??
From:	kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com>	Date:	Sat, 1 Mar 1997 13:51:13 -0800

Status: U

Hi Ya'll,
What's going on? No one seems to be posting, or am I missing them?
Kent

Thread:	Missing Person Chart
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Sat, 1 Mar 1997 07:59:49 -0800

Status: U

I thought the following might be interesting to members of the Lilly list.

According to the New York Times: "Family Appeals for Help in Finding Fordham
Student." Fordham University student Patrick McNeill disappeared just after
midnight of Sunday 2/16/97 in NYC. Here are the details from the Times
Article of 2/27/97:
"Patrick McNeill Jr., a Fordham University student who disappeared after
wandering away from a bar on Manhattan's Upper East Side..."
Several of the search parties started at the Dapper Dog bar on East 92nd
Street and Second Avenue, where Patrick went for a night of drinking with
friends Feb. 16. He left around midnight and disappeared.
Some of the searchers headed east, where one witness told police that he
saw Patrick walking down 90th Street, apparently disoriented, between 12:30
and 1 a.m. Others headed west, the direction that Patrick would have walked
if he had taken the No. 4 or No. 6 subway train back to Fordham University.
"He was supposed to wait for some girl who wanted to ride back on the
subway with him to Fordham," Mrs. Corbetta said. "She went to the bathroom,
and we don't know what happened, but when she came out, he was gone."
The McNeills found out that he was missing the next day, when Patrick did
not show up for his volunteer duty at an ambulance corps in the Bronx and a
co-worker called the family.
Patrick, whose 21st birthday was Monday [? Feb 24,1976 ?], was a junior,
studying accounting. He grew up in Port Chester, the second of three
children, and was captain of Port Chester High School's football team. He
worked driving a school van from the Fordham campus in the Bronx to the
Lincoln Center campus. In his spare time, he booked acts for TOPS, a
University entertainment lounge.
Anyone with information about Patrick's disappearance can call the search
team's help line at (914) 939-7400, or toll-free at (888) 939-8990. The 48th
Police Precinct in the Bronx is investigating the case; its number is (718)
299-4119. "
The above quote is Copyright 1997 The New York Times
=========
I cast the chart for 12:30 AM since the accounts of his last being seen range
from midnight to 1 am on 2/17/97:
Patrick McNeill Missing 17 Feb 1997 12.30 A.M. (5)
74.00 WEST 40.43 NORTH Regiomontanus

21 of Scorpio rises, so Mars signifies the missing student. Mars seems to be
descriptive of this student/athlete. Mars is retrograde in the 11th at 5 of
Libra (a westerly sign, and Patrick had headed west from the bar). Mars is
also in peregrine and in detriment, but is in mixed reception with Saturn.
In Lilly's system, Mars is the weakest planet in the chart.

The Moon, which can rule the missing person, lies in the 8th of death at
almost 2 of Cancer. Moon applies to square Mars at 5 of Libra and to square
Saturn at 5 of Aries. Mars and Saturn are just separating from a recent
opposition. I must say that these are ominous indications, and I would be
itnerested in others' reactions to this chart.

Tony

Thread:	Agenda for March 1997
From:	tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma)	Date:	Sat, 1 Mar 1997 08:01:44 -0800

Status: U

Please feel free to copy and publish this information!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Till 31 August 1997 - Exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, NY,
USA, in the Islamic Wing: "Following the Stars: Images of the Zodiac in
Islamic Art". For further information from the museum, contact:
www.metmuseum.org. For further information from an astrologer, who works at
the museum, contact: leviam@aolcom.

28 February - 2 March 1997 - 2nd "Uranus in Aquarius" conference: "Toward an
astrology for the third millenium", Moscow, Russia, organized by Moscow
Astrology Research Center, Omega Club, "Russian Astrology" Journal and
Euro-Asian Chapter of NCGR, with Farida Asadullina, Peta High, Boros Izraitel,
Grigory Kvasha, Alphee Lavoie, Sergey Shestopalov, Elizabeth Teissier, Sergey
Vronsky, etc. Info: Russia, Moscow, 129626, p/b 5, phone 7-095-282-7402, fax
7-095-261-1806, Email: boris@izraitel.msk.ru

8 March 1997 - Yearly congress organized by Vlaams Astrologisch Genootschap
(V.A.G.), Sijsele (near Brugge), Belgium, with Paul Dijkstra, William De
Rijcke, Christoph Schunert-Weller and Adrie van der Ven. (no translations)
Info: V.A.G., Belgielei 149 box 7, B-2018 Antwerp, Belgium. Phone
32-3230-7511.

13 - 16 March 1997 - NCGR Conference "Astrology, A Revolutionary Experience",
Park Ridge Hotel, Valley Forge, PA, U.S.A. with Ida Cullen, Edith Custer,
Ralph and Lonnie Deamicis, Alison Diamond, Mary Downing, Rob Hand, Madalyn
Hillis, Helen Huber, Warren Kinsman, Alphee Lavoie, Lee Lehman, John
Marchesella, Sophia Mason, AdZe MiXXe, Fran McEvoy, Joan Negus, Ken Negus,
Arlene Marcia Nimark, Amanda Owen, Robert Schmidt, Cheryl Faye Schwartz, Jacob
Schwartz, William Trivett, Linda Waters, Lorraine Welsh. Info: phone
1-610-337-1800, fax 1-718-252-4306, email: amnimark@aol.com

14 - 17 March 1997 - Vedic Astrology in Paradise, Keauhou Beach Hotel, Kona,
Hawaii, U.S.A., organized by the American Council of Vedic Astrology, with
Christina Collins, Dennis Flaherty, David Frawley, Dennis M. Harness, Ph.D.,
Edith Hathaway, Linda Johnsen, James Kelleher, William R. Levacy, Chakrapani
Ullal. Info: phone 800-900-6595 or 1-206-5252229.

20 March 1997 - World Astrology Day begins with Aries Ingress at 13:55 GMT.
Anyone wishing to hold an event for World Astrology Day, please contact AFAN
at phone: 1-212-799-9187 or 800-578-AFAN, Fax 1-212-799-2748, Email:
KRGPhoenix@aol.com. Announcement of events will be posted in the AFAN
Newsletter as they become available.

21 - 23 March 1997 - "State of the Art" Astrology Congress, Sao Paulo, Brazil,
organized by Val Benedetti of "Escola Planeta", with Barbara Abramo, Rui Sa
Silva Barros, Valdenir Benedetti, Maria Alice Camargo, Rodrigo Araes C.
Farias, Henriette Fonseca, Dione Forti, Waldyr Bonadei Fucher, Douglas Gamero,
Ana Gonzales, Maurice Jacoel, Maryland Lewtwiler, Darci Lopes, Cid Marcus,
Adhemar Eugenio De Mello, Sergio Mortari, Hanna Optiz, Robson Papaleo, Adonis
Saliba, Raul Varella. Info: Email: valbenedetti@originet.com.br

22 - 23 March 1997 - Journees de l'ARRC Conference about Uranus and its
symbolism, computers and astrology, Paris, France, with Robert Amadou, Aline
Apostolska, Catherine Aubier, Andre Barbault, Lynn Bell, Jean Francois Berry,
Jany Bessiere, Bernard Blanchet, Christophe de Cene, Maurice Charvet,
Jean-Louis Coudret, Pierre Dicharry, Zip Dobyns, Suzel Fuzeau-Braesch,
Marielle Garel, Suzie Gentile, Katherine Hyman, Emmanuel Le Bret, Dominique
Levadoux-Feuillette, Solange de Mailly-Nesle, Mark Pottenger, Charles Ridoux,
Alexander Ruperti, Christine Saint-Pierre, Francis Santoni, Annick de
Souzenelle, Gilles Verrier, Anne Vigliengo, Bernard Villemin. Info: CEDRA, 7,
Place des Terreaux, 69001 Lyon, France. Phone 33-47823-7276, Fax
33-47808-2033.

28 - 31 March 1997 - Astro 2000 conference: "Hope and Healing for the New
Millennium", Denver Renaissance Hotel, Denver, CO, USA, with Christian Borup,
Steven Forrest, Jeffrey Green, Jeff Jawer, Michael Lutin, Tad Mann, Ingrid
Naiman, Alan Oken, Philip Sedgwick, Erin Sullivan, Noel Tyl. Info: phone
1-303-722-5145, fax 1-303-417-9432, Email: karenh22@aol.com
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Thread:	SUBJECT
From:	siderealm@juno.com (Michael K Jordan)	Date:	Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:32:30 -0800

Greetings:

Every few days there is a period which lasts from the
time the Moon completes its last aspect (angular relationship) and
before it enters the next sign
of the Tropical Zodiac when it is termed void of course.'
This period of time varies from a minute to two or three days, generally
averaging a number of hours.
During this time a unique set of conditions is in place regarding things
begun at this time.
When projects or events are initiated during this period, they generally
fail their intended purpose,
finding changed circumstances when the Moon moves to the next sign.
Appointments and engagements are broken without notification, obstacles
crop up unexpectedly, credentials turn up invalid,
and financial or material expectations fall way short of projections.
This period is a good time to review previous commitments but a bad time
to make new starts. The Void of Course Moon Period is a good time to do
routine tasks such as editing, filing, cleaning, editing, weeding your
garden, watering, resting, relaxing. Forcing yourself to take on new
things at this time increases your level of neurotic stress and gives you
loads of things to clean up after when the Moon is not Void of Course
when you should be starting things anew.
So take it easy during these periods and allow yourself to recharge.
Make as few commitments as possible
during the period and scrutinize the commitments which others make during
this period.
Creativity branches into new territory and results in new creative
circumstances.
Pandoras Box opens and surprises are in store. In politics, in the 14
presidential inaugurations since 1945, only four U.S. Presidents were
sworn in on January 20 during a Void of Course Moon Period, they were:
FDRs last term in 1945 (died in office), Richard Nixons last term in
1973 (resigned to avoid impeachment), John Kennedys last term in 1961
(murdered in office), and William J. Clinton in 1997.

Michael Jordan
Siderealm@juno.com
For a copy of the Void of Course Moon Ephemeris 1997 send $4 US to me at
82 Lawson Road
Kensington, CA 94707