Thread:	Request for Website info
From:	RGrable604@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 26 Feb 1997 22:04:01 -0800

Will this New Age Dicipline include Classical side of Astrology just curious.

Thread:	Pars Mortis
From:	Libran <mersey@groupz.net>	Date:	Sun, 23 Feb 1997 18:15:15 -0800

Status: U

Robert Zoller in "The Arabic Parts in Astrology" has Bonatti calculating
the part of death as the distance of the Moon from the eighth house cusp
added to the position of Saturn. In Astrolog 5.30 the program is set to
add this distance to the Ascendant. Which technique is correct?

Stan Price

Thread:	Update Mailinglists
From:	tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma)	Date:	Sun, 23 Feb 1997 11:06:36 -0800

Status: U

The following international Newsgroups, Mailinglists and Newsletters for
astrology are now available:

NEWSGROUPS
==========

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For astrological ADVERTISING!

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Love,
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---
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---

Thread:	Discovery STS 82
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Sat, 22 Feb 1997 13:09:12 -0800

>Being only a member since a week I hesitate to bring into discussion a
horary that does not do me any credit.

What does do you credit is that you are so honest. Such courage deserves
applause.

>>From a Professor in astronomy in Utrecht (Holland) I received the
following data about the Discovery STS 82 :
>Depart: 11 Febr.1997 - 03.5600 EST - Cape Kennedy 080W37 - 28N37 - AC
01.04 Cap - MC 16.07 Lib

Having looked at the chart, might I respectfully suggest that the data be
double-checked elsewhere - just for safety.

>Looking at the chart my explanation was the following :
>The ruler of the 1 st house, Saturn in Fall in the 3 rd in opposition wih
Mars Retro in Detriment in the 9 th
>gives the state of the Discovery as well as of the voyage, which are not so
good as both planets are in bad
>aspect with the AC also.
Although I would have used different significators, I agree with you that
the chart doesn't offer much hope at first sight. The Moon and ascendant
represent the ship itself with Saturn as the astronauts.

>The starting place is the 4 th house, with ruler the bad aspected Mars,
which is also the dispositor of the
>Moon; one could say there is something not OK with that place nor with the
Discovery either.

Lilly gives the 1st house to the point of departure, the 7th as the
destination, the 10th as the journey and the 4th to the return home.

>The object of the voyage is the 10 th house with ruler Venus, which makes a
trine with Mars in 9, but
>Mars Retro is receding from contact so I thought there will be postponement.
>
>Mercury, ruler of te 9 th is aspected well and that must have been the
reason why everything went smoothly
>after all. That is easy to say afterwards of course.
>But earnestly, would everyone of you have predicted that there would not be
any problem ?

It's easy to talk in hindsight, but you might agree that the traditional
significators are a little more helpful. I don't like the Moon and Saturn
below the horizon (and the Sun) because this usually offers a negative
outcome in this type of chart.

It's interesting to see all those airy planets in such a chart.

The angles are moveable which indicates a speedy journey, but Saturn
afflicts the Asc/Dsc which would suggest at least delay as you mention,
especially since Saturn is in fall. Mars' opposition to Saturn is unhelpful,
too (an understatement!). But perhaps you overlooked the strong recpetions
between Mars and Saturn, this should offset some of the evil of that
opposition. The other point to be noted is that Jupiter (reasonably strong
in this chart) interposes its rays between the two malefics. This, I think
is probably the saving indicator.

There is nothing whatever that can be said in defence of the malefics in
opposition - it is the nastiest of all configurations - only Jupiter can
mitigate the evil promised by that.

Since you were primarily interested (I think) in the safety of the crew, you
might like to look at the condition of Saturn. If the significator is
afflicted by the rulers of the 6th (illness), 8th (death) or 12th (general
misfortune) we might have cause to worry. I would say that Saturn is not
afflicted in this way and so that the crew will return safely.

The Moon's last application is to sextile the Sun and I would say that this
is often a promise of success.

I don't know much about this mission, but didn't I hear that they went to
fix the Hubble telescope and the damned thing fixed itself?! A wasted trip?
Saturn?

As I said it's easy to find the answer after the event, and I'm not sure
that I have, the chart isn't as clear as it might be. But maybe a look from
the traditional perspective might help.

Sincerely

Sue
>Anyhow I thought at the time that all the aspects named above, together
with Neptune in the first house and
>the last bad aspect of the Moon with that unfortunate that there would be
postponement or a earlier return
>than expected caused by a minor failure, expecting however that in any case
the astronauts would be safe and
>well because the 6 th house was unafflicted.
>
>As you all know the Discovery has just landed safely after a succesfull
voyage which has of course pleased me
>very much.
>But I am still not happy with the horary and should like to hear from you
what you would have predicted .
>
>TIA
>
>Paul Langeveld (Holland)
>
>
>
>
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Request for Website info
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:52:37 -0800

My publisher has asked me to do a brief book about the Internet for mental
health professionals. I would like to include a chapter on Astrology, New
Age disciplines, and mental health issues. If you know of any relevant web
pages, please let me know their URL addresses.

Thanks in advance,

Tony (aka Anthony Louis)

Thread:	Deng Xiaoping:
From:	"Hugh McNeill" <hcm@moose.co.uk>	Date:	Sat, 22 Feb 1997 03:03:50 -0800

Deng Xiaoping was born in Guangan county, Sichuan province, (on 22
August 1904). I don't think his time of birth is known.

I picked up a rather interesting comment from the Daily Express of 20
Feb.97, page 14, and I quote as follows:

"Xiaoping - a name he chose himself at the outset of a long career of
revolution and conspiracy - means "small, peaceful and balanced"".

Does this suggest he might have been aware of Libra rising in his
chart? Certainly, his ability to counter-balance Mao for much of his
career would support this.

Deng Xiaoping was given to mysterious comments, one of these to the
Queen on her first and only visit to China in October 1986. He told
her that during his days in France in the 1920's, he had not been
able to see England from the top of the Eiffel Tower. (Source: Daily
Telegraph Obituary, 20 Feb.97).

An example of Libran subliminal communication?

Hugh
.

Hugh McNeill
hcm@moose.co.uk

Within the ashes
Lie love and inspiration

Thread:	Discovery STS 82
From:	"P. Langeveld" <Langeveld.P@net.hcc.nl>	Date:	Fri, 21 Feb 1997 06:48:18 -0800

To Members william_lilly@halcyon.com

Being only a member since a week I hesitate to bring into discussion a horary that does not do me any credit.
I would have preferred to start with one of my succesful ones of which I am happy to say, I have many.
But still I think I'll have to do it so there we go.

>From a Professor in astronomy in Utrecht (Holland) I received the following data about the Discovery STS 82 :
Depart: 11 Febr.1997 - 03.5600 EST - Cape Kennedy 080W37 - 28N37 - AC 01.04 Cap - MC 16.07 Lib

Looking at the chart my explanation was the following :
The ruler of the 1 st house, Saturn in Fall in the 3 rd in opposition wih Mars Retro in Detriment in the 9 th
gives the state of the Discovery as well as of the voyage, which are not so good as both planets are in bad
aspect with the AC also.

The starting place is the 4 th house, with ruler the bad aspected Mars, which is also the dispositor of the
Moon; one could say there is something not OK with that place nor with the Discovery either.

The object of the voyage is the 10 th house with ruler Venus, which makes a trine with Mars in 9, but
Mars Retro is receding from contact so I thought there will be postponement.

Mercury, ruler of te 9 th is aspected well and that must have been the reason why everything went smoothly
after all. That is easy to say afterwards of course.
But earnestly, would everyone of you have predicted that there would not be any problem ?

Anyhow I thought at the time that all the aspects named above, together with Neptune in the first house and
the last bad aspect of the Moon with that unfortunate that there would be postponement or a earlier return
than expected caused by a minor failure, expecting however that in any case the astronauts would be safe and
well because the 6 th house was unafflicted.

As you all know the Discovery has just landed safely after a succesfull voyage which has of course pleased me
very much.
But I am still not happy with the horary and should like to hear from you what you would have predicted .

TIA

Paul Langeveld (Holland)

Thread:	My father
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Fri, 21 Feb 1997 02:56:09 -0800

Best of luck to both you and your Dad, Julienne. Hope it works out well.

Regards
Angela

Thread:	Medical Astrology
From:	Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:25:59 -0800

At 06:03 PM 2/20/97 -0500, TonyLouis@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 97-02-20 16:57:12 EST, you write:
>
><<
> I've found Jane Ridder-Patrick's "A Handbook of Medical Astrology" (London:
> Penguin/Arakana,1992) to be an excellent overview of Medical Astrology and
> it has another advantage for a person pressed for time: it's short;)
>
>I agree. This is an excellent text and has a nice, very clear chapter on
>horary.
>Tony

I agree too, but last time I tried to get some for my students it was out of
print. I like the 'handbook' and easy reference in it really good to work
with. The Horary is good too. I might ask Arkana if they will be doig a
reprint.

Linda
>
>
>

Thread:	My father
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:07:55 -0800

Status: U

Hi All,

A few weeks ago, I asked if you all could help me with a orary about the
possibility of my father coming home.

I just wanted to let you know he came home yesterday.

Thank you...

Julienne

Thread:	Medical Astrology
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:03:45 -0800

Status: U

In a message dated 97-02-20 16:57:12 EST, you write:

<<
I've found Jane Ridder-Patrick's "A Handbook of Medical Astrology" (London:
Penguin/Arakana,1992) to be an excellent overview of Medical Astrology and
it has another advantage for a person pressed for time: it's short;)
>>

I agree. This is an excellent text and has a nice, very clear chapter on
horary.
Tony

Thread:	China - Deng Xiaoping
From:	Gill Norman <sysop@astronet.demon.co.uk>	Date:	Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:49:18 -0800

Status: U

2/19/97.

China announced the death of Deng Xiaoping - born Aug 22 1904,
at 2.40 am, Beijing time, 18 February '97. There will be 6 days of
mourning. (source: Daily Telegraph, Thurs 19 Feb 1997).

--
Gill Norman Astronet UK BBS
Glastonbury England 51N06 02W42

Thread:	Whole Sign Houses
From:	"J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix4.ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:06:26 -0800

Status: U

> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:08:06 -0500 (EST)
> From: Leviam@aol.com
>
> I am only slightly familiar with the Gauglin data. Was the 9th House peak
> only for sports champions?
>
No. All the sets showed it, although the intensity of the peak varied
somewhat between professions.

Lee
---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction

Thread:	Medical Astrology
From:	nmu6970@iac.co.jp (NMU)	Date:	Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:46:22 -0800

>In a message dated 97-02-19 16:25:26 EST, you write:
>
><< From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
> Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
> Calling all Medical Astrologers on this list,
> HELP !!!
> >>
>Patricia,

I've found Jane Ridder-Patrick's "A Handbook of Medical Astrology" (London:
Penguin/Arakana,1992) to be an excellent overview of Medical Astrology and
it has another advantage for a person pressed for time: it's short;)

Good luck!

Warmest Regards,

Neil Urquhart
----------------
You ask me why I live in the grey hills,
I smile but do not answer, for my thoughts are elsewhere.
Like peach petals carried by the stream, they have gone
To other climates, to countries other than the world of men.

Li Po

Thread:	Medical Astrology
From:	<jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>	Date:	Thu, 20 Feb 1997 05:44:39 -0800

An Encyclopedia Of Medical Astrology by Harvey Cornell is
also quite good but understand it's alot of reading.



jude <jdashiel@eagle1.eaglenet.com>

Thread:	Whole Sign Houses
From:	allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com>	Date:	Wed, 19 Feb 1997 20:31:48 -0800

Hi, Lee,

>> Evidently, whole sign houses do nothing in this case.

Was this whole signs starting from the Asc or from the MC or both? Perhaps
it would make a difference from the MC.


Allen

Thread:	Medical Astrology
From:	Herman Van Roey <astroX.baldur@glo.be>	Date:	Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:38:24 -0800

At 11:43 +0100 19-02-1997, Patricia Hamilton wrote:
>Calling all Medical Astrologers on this list,
>
>HELP !!!
>

It's not that I consider myself to be a true medical astrologer, but I have
a paramedical formation, and I study - and teach - medical astro now for
about 6 years.
I would advice you to read and study the book "Astrology and the Art of
Healing" by A.T. Mann, which gives an alternative and quite revolutionary
but VERY practical approach to M.A., based upon the developmental timescale
that is reflected in the houses of the horoscope. I one ever may say so
about M.A., this approach is *easy* (well, if you compare to classical
medical astrology, that is ;-)
It may have been reprinted in the mean time, but the book I have was
published in '89 by Unwin paperbacks.

Hope this helps, and wish you success with your talk !

Herman VR.

IAHA! Integratieve Astrologie & Holistisch Advies!
*** Remembering the future,I cannot help wondering
as I stand in eternal now, what the past will bring...***

If you reply by E-mail, don't forget to eliminate the (anti-Spam) X from
the adress <:-)

Thread:	Whole Sign Houses
From:	Leviam@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 19 Feb 1997 16:08:18 -0800

Dear Lee,
In a message dated 97-02-19 01:31:40 EST, you write:

>I did a screening with the sports champions, using both tropical and
>sidereal houses. I did not break out diurnal-nocturnal as a
>preliminary screen.
>
>The results in whole sign houses - both tropically and sidereally -
>were poorer than in standard houses. Also, equal house off the Asc did
>not do anything to clarify the 9th House peak.

I am only slightly familiar with the Gauglin data. Was the 9th House peak
only for sports champions?

Thank you.

Levia

Thread:	Medical Astrology
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:08:23 -0800

In a message dated 97-02-19 16:25:26 EST, you write:

<< From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Calling all Medical Astrologers on this list,
HELP !!!
>>
Patricia,

If you can get a copy, there is an excellent book called Know Your Type by
Ralph Metzner, Anchor Books, 1979, New York. Chapter 4 is the best
description of astrological typology I have ever read. The author shows the
connections between the 4 humors of ancient Greece, Jungian typology and
astrology.

Tony

Thread:	Medical Astrology
From:	pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)	Date:	Wed, 19 Feb 1997 02:44:09 -0800

Calling all Medical Astrologers on this list,

HELP !!!

I have been asked to give a talk in a couple of weeks to an Association of
Complementary Therapist. It is expected the audience will be in the region
of 250 to 300 people. GREAT - except, not having a medical background, I
am not a Medical Astrologer. In my practice I deal with the usual personal
charts and problems, and having a business and financial background, I
specialize in in business and financial astrology.

The disciplines represented by this audience will include aromatherapy,
chiropractic, homeopathy, psychotherapy, counselling, hynotherapy,
kinesiology, reiki, nutritional therapy, Alexander technique, metamorphic
technique, reflexology, massage, yoga, spiritual healing, and no doubt
others as well as members of the general public. There are astrological
references for some - but it would be nice to appeal, without getting too
technical, to as many of the disciplines as possible.

Apart from the general history of astrology, one immediately thinks of
Hippocrates, Culpepper, and Jung, in respect of some of the disciplines -
but I am sure there are many other interesting and well known people to whom
I could refer. So if anyone can send me a few astrological hints,
references and anecdotes on the above subjects and/or relevant great names I
would be most grateful.

In anticipation of your feedback - thank you.

Patricia Hamilton

Thread:	Re[2]: HOrary Charts
From:	"Nicholas Grier" <n.grier@napier.ac.uk>	Date:	Wed, 19 Feb 1997 01:54:00 -0800

Thank you for your helpful response. It was good of you to take the
trouble.

Nicholas Grier


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: HOrary Charts
Author: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com> at internet-gateway
Date: 14/02/97 01:17


>Message was resent -- Original recipients were:
To:
william_lilly@halcyon.com-------------------------------------------------------
------------------------
In a message dated 97-02-13 16:22:58 EST, you write:
>> I should be very interested to see your and others' points of view on
these matters.

Nicholas Grier
>> Napier University

Nicholas,

I've given my own opinions in CAPITALS below each of your points.

<< 1. Do you think it is valid to re-ask questions even if you receive a
negative answer the first time ? For instance, if you ask "Will such
and such happen to me ?" do you think that if you receive a negative
answer that means that that answer stands for all time, or do you
think it merely stands until such time as you have altered the
situation by taking further steps towards achieving the desired
result.
I BELIEVE THAT THE ANSWER STANDS UNLESS THERE ARE COMPELLING REASONS TO CAST
ANOTHER CHART.

2. Equally, is it valid to ask "Will such and such happen within the
next two years ?" Can one see that far ahead ? I ask because, for
example, I understand Tarot readers are unlikely to prognosticate that
far ahead, though of ocurse Indian astrologers often prognosticate many
years ahead -with alarming accuracy !
LILLY WAS ABLE TO TELL A WOMAN THAT SHE WOULD NEVER IN HER LIFE HAVE
CHILDREN. IF THERE IS A COMPELLING REASON TO ASK ABOUT A TIME FRAME, THE
CHART OUGHT TO BE VALID FOR THAT TIME FRAME. THE SERIOUSNESS OF INTENT OF
THE QUERENT IS THE ISSUE.

3. Does anyone use parallels and contraparallels in their
interpretations ? Do they work ? Can an intervening parallel impede
success ? What are others' experiences ? IVY JACOBSON AND HER
FOLLOWERS (GILBERT NAVARRO, ETC.) USE PARALLEL AND CLAIM TO GET GOOD
RESULTS.

4. Does anyone, apart from Flamsteed when setting up observatories,
use antiscia ? Do people find that they are indicative of success and
how are they used ? What about contra-antiscia ?
LILLY USED BY ANTISCIA AND CONTRA-ANTISCIA. I FIND THEM USEFUL IN MY
OWN HORARY CHARTS.

5. I am never sure how much attention to pay to semi-sextiles or
quincunxes intervening before a coming together of significators. My
experience is that unless they are with a benign planet they are not
generally indicative of overall success. What do others feel ?
I FIND THAT THE MINOR ASPECTS ARE USUALLY NOT TOO SIGNIFICANT UNLESS THEY ARE
THE ONLY ASPECTS OCCURING BETWEEN SIGNIFICATORS AND ARE FORTIFIED BY OTHER
FACTORS SUCH AS MUTUAL RECEPTIONS, ETC.

6. I know some people do not believe in using the trans-Saturnian
planets, but I do as I do not believe we can turn back the clock. My
experience is that, broadly speaking, one should use traditional
significators except for obviously unsuitable things, so electronic
communication would be ruled by Uranus rather than Mercury. Is this
fair comment ? I also find that where, say, the moon or a significator
makes a hard aspect to a trans-Saturnian planet before there is a union
of significators, the trans-Saturnian planet is more than likely to
deny success. Is that others' views ?
IF YOU DECIDE TO USE TRADITIONAL METHODS, I THINK IT IS BEST TO IGNORE THE
TRANS-STATURNIAN PLANETS. MODERN HORARY TECHIQUES, OF COURSE, USE THEM. I
BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE MANY SYSTEMS OF HORARY ANALYSIS, BUT THAT ONE SHOULD
BE INTERNALLY CONSISTENT AND STICK TO A PARTICULAR SYSTEM WHEN READING A
CHART.

I should be very interested to see your and others' points of view on
these matters.

Nicholas Grier
Napier University

HOPE THIS IS USEFUL. I'LL BE INTERESTED TO READ WHAT OTHERS THINK.

TONY

Thread:	Fwd: NOTICIAS ASTROLOGICAS
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:03:33 -0800

In a message dated 97-02-18 19:26:01 EST, gracent9@abaforum.es (gracentro=
)
writes:
<< ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Estimados amigos:
=20
Desde Gracentro entidad cultural interesada en la recuperacion del
conocimiento astrologico y en su divulgacion, vamos a enviar a todos
aquellos interesados que nos lo soliciten algunos capitulos del libro
SUMMA ASTROLOGICA, editado por Gracentro en 1996, recuperado y
traducido al castellano.
=20
Para ello solo tienes que enviarnos un e-mail indicandolo.
=20
Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Estimados amigos:
=20
Desde Gracentro entidad cultural interesada en la recuperacion del
conocimiento astrologico y en su divulgacion, vamos a enviar a todos
aquellos interesados que nos lo soliciten algunos capitulos del libro
LIBRO CONPLIDO EN LOS IUDIZIOS DE LAS ESTRELLAS, editado por Gracentro
en la pasada conjuncion del Sol-Jupiter, recuperado y traducido al
castellano.
=20
Para ello solo tienes que enviarnos un e-mail indicandolo.
=20
Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Estimados amigos:
=20
Desde Gracentro entidad cultural interesada en la recuperacion del
conocimiento astrologico y en su divulgacion, vamos a enviar a todos
aquellos interesados que nos lo soliciten algunos capitulos del libro
FUNDAMENTOS MAS CIERTOS DE LA ASTROLOGICA, recuperado y traducido al
castellano por Gracentro en 1997.
=20
Para ello solo tienes que enviarnos un e-mail indicandolo.
=20
Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es
=20
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
From gracent9@abaforum.es Tue Feb 18 19:25:15 1997
Return-Path: gracent9@abaforum.es
CC: TonyLouis@aol.com
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: gracent9@abaforum.es (gracentro)
To: bini@overnet.com.ar (RAFAEL BINI)
CC: pote@bigfoot.com (REGINA CELIA CRUZ), rosemary.dantas@bbs.centroin.co=
m.br
(ROSEMARY DANTAS), rdrodrig@iis.com.br (ROSENDO RODRIGUEZ), cheb5@unm.edu
(STANLEY B HAGYARD), TonyLouis@aol.com (TONY LOUIS), vmfastro@copa.rio.co=
m.br
(VERA MOREIRA FIGUERA), chediv@censsw.gov.ab.ca (VERONICA CHEDIV),
wfalcao@ax.ibase.org.br (WALDEMAR FALCAO), wilton@e-net.com.br (WILTON
CARVALHO)
Date: 97-02-18 19:26:01 EST

Nuestros mejores deseos a todo el movimiento astrologico.

Los pasados dias 15 16 y 17 de Febrero, estuvimos presentes en el
congreso de astrologia de Barcelona, nuestras felicitaciones a la
Asociacion de Astrologia de Catalunya por el magn=EDfico trabajo de
organizacion.

Mas de 150 astrologos de toda Espa=F1a y Europa se dieron cita en esta
extraordinaria reunion.

Destacamos sobre todo las exposiciones de Jesus Lidon con su ponencia
El zodiaco del silencio y la Astro-mundial, la ponencia de Mariano
Aladren sobre la Astrologia en el simbolismo de la Corona de Aragon
y la ponencia de nuestro compa=F1ero Jose Luis Carri=F3n sobre los Cambio=
s
climaticos y sociales del proximo milenio.

En este congreso presentamos con gran exito el LIBRO CONPLIDO DE LOS
IUDIZIOS DE LAS ESTRELLAS traducci=F3n realizada en Toledo en la Corte
de Alfonso X el Sabio, y que Gracentro ha editado en castellano por
primera vez.

Quedamos a la espera de la realizacion del proximo XIV Congreso Iberico
de Astrologia a celebrar en Finestrat (BENIDORM) Alicante los proximos
5,6,7 y 8 de Junio.

Os enviaremos mas informacion cuando la tengamos disponible.

Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Estimados amigos:

Desde Gracentro entidad cultural interesada en la recuperacion del
conocimiento astrologico y en su divulgacion, vamos a enviar a todos
aquellos interesados que nos lo soliciten algunos capitulos del libro
SUMMA ASTROLOGICA, editado por Gracentro en 1996, recuperado y
traducido al castellano.

Para ello solo tienes que enviarnos un e-mail indicandolo.

Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Estimados amigos:

Desde Gracentro entidad cultural interesada en la recuperacion del
conocimiento astrologico y en su divulgacion, vamos a enviar a todos
aquellos interesados que nos lo soliciten algunos capitulos del libro
LIBRO CONPLIDO EN LOS IUDIZIOS DE LAS ESTRELLAS, editado por Gracentro
en la pasada conjuncion del Sol-Jupiter, recuperado y traducido al
castellano.

Para ello solo tienes que enviarnos un e-mail indicandolo.

Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Estimados amigos:

Desde Gracentro entidad cultural interesada en la recuperacion del
conocimiento astrologico y en su divulgacion, vamos a enviar a todos
aquellos interesados que nos lo soliciten algunos capitulos del libro
FUNDAMENTOS MAS CIERTOS DE LA ASTROLOGICA, recuperado y traducido al
castellano por Gracentro en 1997.

Para ello solo tienes que enviarnos un e-mail indicandolo.

Alberto Quilis Quilis
gracent9@abaforum.es

Thread:	Follow-up: sale of business
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:03:30 -0800

>An Apology:

My brain went seriously out of gear on this one. It is, of course, a seventh
house matter since the question is about buying and selling and the
stricture regarding the astrologer does not therefore apply.

Best Wishes,
Jonathon

At 17:51 17-02-97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>>
>>I suggest that great care is needed interpreting this chart as there are, I
>>think, big warnings to the "Artist."
>>
>>Mars, as ruler of the seventh, signifies the astrologer. It is retrograde,
>>in its detriment and in the terms of Saturn. This certainly puts it in the
>>category of "unfortunate" in which case Lilly says, "the Artist shall scarce
>>give good judgement." (p. 123 Christian Astrology). Being in the twelfth
>>makes matters worse although this might not invalidate judgement of its own.
>>
>>Regards,
>> Jonathon
>
>I would have thought the ruler of the 7th would have related to the quesited
>rather to the astrologer. But if it casts doubts on the astrologer, perhaps
>I should give the opposite view to the one I have formed, and that would be
>correct! :-) I had read that Saturn's presence in the 7th house would cast
>doubt on the astrologer's judgement, or in the 1st if it relates to a question
>he or she is asking about themselves, but this is not so in this case and
>that is why I thought it safe to "have a go."
>
>If Mars signifies the astrologer, what signifies the buyer of the property?
>I would have thought that Venus would be the seller (querent) and Mars the
>seller,
>
>reagrds,
>
>Joanne
>
>ps I'm waiting for my copy of Christian Astrology to arrive! :-) Then I will
>be able to check your reference.
>
>
>
>>
>> (Although if I cast the chart for the question being asked in
>>>New Zealand the time being Feb., 15, 9:44 am, Daylight saving, NZT Zone -13
>>>174E47 41S18, Wellington, New Zealand - the Ascendant is in 0:Aries and
>>>Saturn is in the first house, which would mean the chart is not suitable
>>>for judgement. So this is a case where the place from which the chart is
>>>taken is very important.)
>>
>>If the chart is to be erected when the astrologer understands the question
>>then I suggest one should take the location of the astrologer.
>>(Jonathon)
>>>
>>>So taking the chart as in Vienna, the querent(seller) is signified by Venus
>>> and the quesited (the buyer) by Mars. There is no aspect between
>>>Venus and Mars, however the Moon trines first Mars and then Venus before it
>>>leaves Gemini, which would suggest that the business would sell within a
>>>year.
>>Timing: since the Moon moves 3.5 degrees in Gemini in the 8th to
>>>trine Mars,
>>> would that mean 3 1/2 months until sale? ALthough it has to move 12 degrees
>>>to trine Venus...
>>>
>>>The business (a garden centre) would come under the 4th house ruled by
>>>Saturn. The Moon sextiles Saturn after moving 3 degrees. Since the business
>>>is owned by a group of friends, would be also perhaps look at the 11th
>>>house which is ruled by the Sun (Leo). The last aspect the Moon makes before
>>>leaving Gemini is a trine to the Sun.
>>>
>>>This all looks quite hopeful to me. BUT, Mars is retrograde in the 12th
>>>house, which would seem to suggest some kind of difficulty with the Buyer.
>>>Mars is also applying to a tight opposition with Saturn in the 6th which
>>>could also slow matters down. Furthermore, Venus is pretty well unaspected
>>>by any other planets although it is applying a trine to the ascendant.
>>>Looking at the planetary strengths, none of the significators is doing
>>>very well: Venus scores 6, Mars -15, Moon -2, Sun -5, Saturn -2.
>>>(according to my Matrix software which calculates Lilly's planetary
>>>strengths.)
>>>
>>>Your comments on the above would be welcome. This business is becoming a
>>>major drain on the energies of all concerned, and everyone wants to sell
>>>it as quickly as possible (for a reasonable price.)
>>>
>>>regards
>>>
>>>Joanne
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Thread:	Whole Sign Houses
From:	"J. Lee Lehman" <leephd@ix9.ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Tue, 18 Feb 1997 19:04:30 -0800

Status: U

Thought the Board might be interested in a question put to me last
weekend by Hank Friedman. He was referred to me, since I have the
Gauquelin professional data available for inquiry. Hank's question
was: are the peaks observed on the cadent sides of the Ascendant
and MC actually a whole-sign house phenomenon, i.e., was the peak
actually angular if whole-sign houses are used?

I did a screening with the sports champions, using both tropical and
sidereal houses. I did not break out diurnal-nocturnal as a
preliminary screen.

The results in whole sign houses - both tropically and sidereally -
were poorer than in standard houses. Also, equal house off the Asc did
not do anything to clarify the 9th House peak.

Evidently, whole sign houses do nothing in this case.
---
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction

Thread:	Follow-up: sale of business
From:	allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com>	Date:	Mon, 17 Feb 1997 19:33:44 -0800

Hi, Joanne,

>> probably it doesn't make much difference to the outcome whether its -9
or -15.

Perhaps not in this chart, but what about other charts?

>> I think they apply the traditional factors, but from the score maybe
they count one thing extra.

I wonder what that is?!

>> Did you get the same scores for the other planets?

Yes, I did.

>> As you suggest, they may have taken a wider orb for the opposition with
Saturn, and I have noticed they do use quite wide orbs.

But even so, I could not come up with -15.


Allen

Thread:	Chart rectification
From:	Joanne Greig <joanne@actrix.co.at>	Date:	Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:22:43 -0800

At 17:28 16-02-97 -0800, you wrote:

>Joanne,
>
>I am very skeptical that a horary chart can tell you the Ascendant of your
>natal chart. My recommendation would be to rectify your chart using
>traditional methods, testing it carefully against transits and progressions
>for major events in your life.
>
>Best Wishes,
>Tony
>

I too was sceptical, and was surprised by the plausable result. I just tried
9:46 Cancer for my wedding, and it resulted in Saturn and Neptune being
conjunct the
Desc. within a degree and Jupiter (retrograde) conjunct the Asc. The Moon was
conjunct the MC. Could be a direct hit!
One of my problems with the rectification is trying to dissociate the effects of
transits to the planets from the houses. However, the above seemed to work.

cheers

Joanne

Thread:	Chart rectification
From:	Joanne Greig <joanne@actrix.co.at>	Date:	Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:23:34 -0800

I may write to them,

cheers,
Joanne

At 21:43 16-02-97 -0500, you wrote:
>Did you try hospital records it might be on microfish of the time you were
>born It wasn't on my birth certificate either but the hospital had a record
>of time
>
>
>Rodger
>
>

Thread:	Follow-up: sale of business
From:	Joanne Greig <joanne@actrix.co.at>	Date:	Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:22:09 -0800

I'd have to check with them what factors they use, but probably it doesn't
make much difference to the outcome whether its -9 or -15. I think they
apply the traditional factors, but from the score maybe they count one
thing extra. Did you get the same scores for the other planets? AS you
suggest, they may have taken a wider orb for the opposition with Saturn,
and I have noticed they do use quite wide orbs. I have checked Matrix's
computations against those of a traditional horary astrologer, and also
found some minor discrepanies, but not really enough to raise questions
in my mind about the outcome,

cheers,

Joanne


At 23:08 16-02-97 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi, Joanne,
>
>>> I received the question 14 Feb 1997 at 9:44pm CET, 16E20' 48N13'
>
>Looking at the planetary strengths, none of the significators is doing very
>well: Venus scores 6, Mars -15, Moon -2, Sun -5, Saturn -2, (according to
>my Matrix software which calculates Lilly's planetary strengths.)
>
>I get -9 for Mars:
>
>-5 in 12th house
>+2 oriental
>+5 not combust
>+4 exact trine to Jupiter (same degree)
>-5 detriment
>-5 peregrine
>-5 retrograde
>---- ----------------
>-9 total
>
>Mars is not exactly (same degree) opposite Saturn as Mars is at 5 Lib 25
>and Saturn is at 4 Ari 59. Even if Mars were, then that would bring the
>total to -13. With Jupiter at 5 Aqu 39, even if you did not feel that was
>an exact trine, then the score would be -17.
>
>I wonder how Matrix gets -15? Just checking.
>
>
>Allen
>
>

Thread:	Follow-up: sale of business
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:53:01 -0800

>Dear All,
>
>I wrote earlier for some help on a horary inquiry where it was not
>clear who the querent was and the time of the question. Well, on
>the advice of one of the members of this list I asked the querent
>to call me so I could be sure who the querent was and the time of the
>question. As a beginner please bear with me (and hopefully
>help me out!) These are the details of the question:
>
>Will the garden center business sell within a year?
>
>I received the question in Vienna Feb., 14 1997 at 9:44pm CET
>ZONE -1, 16E20' 48N13'
>
>In this case, it would seem that none of the strictures against judgement
>would apply.

I suggest that great care is needed interpreting this chart as there are, I
think, big warnings to the "Artist."

Mars, as ruler of the seventh, signifies the astrologer. It is retrograde,
in its detriment and in the terms of Saturn. This certainly puts it in the
category of "unfortunate" in which case Lilly says, "the Artist shall scarce
give good judgement." (p. 123 Christian Astrology). Being in the twelfth
makes matters worse although this might not invalidate judgement of its own.

Regards,
Jonathon

(Although if I cast the chart for the question being asked in
>New Zealand the time being Feb., 15, 9:44 am, Daylight saving, NZT Zone -13
>174E47 41S18, Wellington, New Zealand - the Ascendant is in 0:Aries and
>Saturn is in the first house, which would mean the chart is not suitable
>for judgement. So this is a case where the place from which the chart is
>taken is very important.)

If the chart is to be erected when the astrologer understands the question
then I suggest one should take the location of the astrologer.
(Jonathon)
>
>So taking the chart as in Vienna, the querent(seller) is signified by Venus
> and the quesited (the buyer) by Mars. There is no aspect between
>Venus and Mars, however the Moon trines first Mars and then Venus before it
>leaves Gemini, which would suggest that the business would sell within a
>year.
Timing: since the Moon moves 3.5 degrees in Gemini in the 8th to
>trine Mars,
> would that mean 3 1/2 months until sale? ALthough it has to move 12 degrees
>to trine Venus...
>
>The business (a garden centre) would come under the 4th house ruled by
>Saturn. The Moon sextiles Saturn after moving 3 degrees. Since the business
>is owned by a group of friends, would be also perhaps look at the 11th
>house which is ruled by the Sun (Leo). The last aspect the Moon makes before
>leaving Gemini is a trine to the Sun.
>
>This all looks quite hopeful to me. BUT, Mars is retrograde in the 12th
>house, which would seem to suggest some kind of difficulty with the Buyer.
>Mars is also applying to a tight opposition with Saturn in the 6th which
>could also slow matters down. Furthermore, Venus is pretty well unaspected
>by any other planets although it is applying a trine to the ascendant.
>Looking at the planetary strengths, none of the significators is doing
>very well: Venus scores 6, Mars -15, Moon -2, Sun -5, Saturn -2.
>(according to my Matrix software which calculates Lilly's planetary
>strengths.)
>
>Your comments on the above would be welcome. This business is becoming a
>major drain on the energies of all concerned, and everyone wants to sell
>it as quickly as possible (for a reasonable price.)
>
>regards
>
>Joanne
>
>
>
>

Thread:	Follow-up: sale of business
From:	allen edwall <allen_edwall@compuserve.com>	Date:	Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:09:17 -0800

Status: U

Hi, Joanne,

>> I received the question 14 Feb 1997 at 9:44pm CET, 16E20' 48N13'

Looking at the planetary strengths, none of the significators is doing very
well: Venus scores 6, Mars -15, Moon -2, Sun -5, Saturn -2, (according to
my Matrix software which calculates Lilly's planetary strengths.)

I get -9 for Mars:

-5 in 12th house
+2 oriental
+5 not combust
+4 exact trine to Jupiter (same degree)
-5 detriment
-5 peregrine
-5 retrograde
---- ----------------
-9 total

Mars is not exactly (same degree) opposite Saturn as Mars is at 5 Lib 25
and Saturn is at 4 Ari 59. Even if Mars were, then that would bring the
total to -13. With Jupiter at 5 Aqu 39, even if you did not feel that was
an exact trine, then the score would be -17.

I wonder how Matrix gets -15? Just checking.


Allen

Thread:	Chart rectification
From:	RGrable604@aol.com	Date:	Sun, 16 Feb 1997 18:44:04 -0800

Status: U

Did you try hospital records it might be on microfish of the time you were
born It wasn't on my birth certificate either but the hospital had a record
of time


Rodger

Thread:	Chart rectification
From:	"Carol A.Wiggers" <cwiggers@halcyon.com>	Date:	Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:35:06 -0800

Love & Light
Carol
cwiggers@halcyon.com
http://www.horary.com
JustUs & Associates
1420 NW Gilman Blvd., Suite #2154
Issaquah, WA 98027-7001 USA
Phone (206)391-8371 Fax (206)392-1919
Horary, Electional, Predictive and Natal Correspondence Courses
The Horary Practitioner and The Traditional Astrologer Magazines
Rare Astrology Books republished in modern print, such as William Lilly,
Partridge, Gadbury, Griffin, Bonatus, Ramesey, Coley, etc.
Career Reports and Career Report Software Available
Astrology Software: Astrowin, Horary Helper for Windows, Electional Helper for Windows, Astroclock, etc.


-----Original Message-----
From: TonyLouis@aol.com [SMTP:TonyLouis@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 16, 1997 4:23 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: chart rectification

Joanne,

I am very skeptical that a horary chart can tell you the Ascendant of your
natal chart. My recommendation would be to rectify your chart using
traditional methods, testing it carefully against transits and progressions
for major events in your life.

Best Wishes,
Tony

Thread:	Follow-up: sale of business
From:	Joanne Greig <joanne@actrix.co.at>	Date:	Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:50:51 -0800

Dear All,

I wrote earlier for some help on a horary inquiry where it was not
clear who the querent was and the time of the question. Well, on
the advice of one of the members of this list I asked the querent
to call me so I could be sure who the querent was and the time of the
question. As a beginner please bear with me (and hopefully
help me out!) These are the details of the question:

Will the garden center business sell within a year?

I received the question in Vienna Feb., 14 1997 at 9:44pm CET
ZONE -1, 16E20' 48N13'

In this case, it would seem that none of the strictures against judgement
would apply. (Although if I cast the chart for the question being asked in
New Zealand the time being Feb., 15, 9:44 am, Daylight saving, NZT Zone -13
174E47 41S18, Wellington, New Zealand - the Ascendant is in 0:Aries and
Saturn is in the first house, which would mean the chart is not suitable
for judgement. So this is a case where the place from which the chart is
taken is very important.)

So taking the chart as in Vienna, the querent(seller) is signified by Venus
and the quesited (the buyer) by Mars. There is no aspect between
Venus and Mars, however the Moon trines first Mars and then Venus before it
leaves Gemini, which would suggest that the business would sell within a
year. Timing: since the Moon moves 3.5 degrees in Gemini in the 8th to
trine Mars,
would that mean 3 1/2 months until sale? ALthough it has to move 12 degrees
to trine Venus...

The business (a garden centre) would come under the 4th house ruled by
Saturn. The Moon sextiles Saturn after moving 3 degrees. Since the business
is owned by a group of friends, would be also perhaps look at the 11th
house which is ruled by the Sun (Leo). The last aspect the Moon makes before
leaving Gemini is a trine to the Sun.

This all looks quite hopeful to me. BUT, Mars is retrograde in the 12th
house, which would seem to suggest some kind of difficulty with the Buyer.
Mars is also applying to a tight opposition with Saturn in the 6th which
could also slow matters down. Furthermore, Venus is pretty well unaspected
by any other planets although it is applying a trine to the ascendant.
Looking at the planetary strengths, none of the significators is doing
very well: Venus scores 6, Mars -15, Moon -2, Sun -5, Saturn -2.
(according to my Matrix software which calculates Lilly's planetary
strengths.)

Your comments on the above would be welcome. This business is becoming a
major drain on the energies of all concerned, and everyone wants to sell
it as quickly as possible (for a reasonable price.)

regards

Joanne

Thread:	Chart rectification
From:	Joanne Greig <joanne@actrix.co.at>	Date:	Sun, 16 Feb 1997 03:50:49 -0800

Recently I have become obsessed with the idea that my mother gave me the wrong
time for my birth. This is important because an a keen amateur astrologer I
and always calculating transits and progressions to various houses. I asked
her to again confirm the time but she couldn't remember.
She said she went to the hospital in the small hours of the morning and I was
born "well before breakfast." We don't put birth times on the certificate,
in New Zealand unfortunately, unlike in the US.

Originally she had given me the time as 1:55 am NZT, 21 September 1958,
Gisborne, New Zealand. Using deduction, and checking against some life events
I eventually decided that the birth time was probably 2:36 am NZT, giving an
ascendant of 15:21 Cancer. (One look at me and you can see I have a Cancer
asc.)

HOWEVER, I was just reading in a book on horary that sometimes when people
don't know their exact birth time, you can do a chart for the moment they
ask and use the degree on the Asc. as possibly the same as the actual time.
I felt a bit sceptical about this, but tried it for the time I asked the
question
"what was the degree on my ascendant when I was born?". To my surprise I
received a plausible answer. The degree on the Ascendant was 2:46 Cancer,
which would have translated to 1:45 am, only 10 minutes before the time my
mother originally gave me. (ie 16 Feb. 1997, 12:24 pm CET, Vienna, Austria)

Does any one have any experience with this, or comments to make? I'm going to
try checking the new possible ascendant against my marriage date: 12 November
1989, Wellington, New Zealand at 10:30 am. The other special date is when I
arrived in Vienna 31 August 1992.

regards,

Joanne

Thread:	HOrary Charts
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Thu, 13 Feb 1997 14:58:29 -0800

In a message dated 97-02-13 16:22:58 EST, you write:
>> I should be very interested to see your and others' points of view on
these matters.

Nicholas Grier
>> Napier University

Nicholas,

I've given my own opinions in CAPITALS below each of your points.

<< 1. Do you think it is valid to re-ask questions even if you receive a
negative answer the first time ? For instance, if you ask "Will such
and such happen to me ?" do you think that if you receive a negative
answer that means that that answer stands for all time, or do you
think it merely stands until such time as you have altered the
situation by taking further steps towards achieving the desired
result.
I BELIEVE THAT THE ANSWER STANDS UNLESS THERE ARE COMPELLING REASONS TO CAST
ANOTHER CHART.

2. Equally, is it valid to ask "Will such and such happen within the
next two years ?" Can one see that far ahead ? I ask because, for
example, I understand Tarot readers are unlikely to prognosticate that
far ahead, though of ocurse Indian astrologers often prognosticate
many years ahead -with alarming accuracy !
LILLY WAS ABLE TO TELL A WOMAN THAT SHE WOULD NEVER IN HER LIFE HAVE
CHILDREN. IF THERE IS A COMPELLING REASON TO ASK ABOUT A TIME FRAME, THE
CHART OUGHT TO BE VALID FOR THAT TIME FRAME. THE SERIOUSNESS OF INTENT OF
THE QUERENT IS THE ISSUE.

3. Does anyone use parallels and contraparallels in their
interpretations ? Do they work ? Can an intervening parallel impede
success ? What are others' experiences ? IVY JACOBSON AND HER
FOLLOWERS (GILBERT NAVARRO, ETC.) USE PARALLEL AND CLAIM TO GET GOOD
RESULTS.

4. Does anyone, apart from Flamsteed when setting up observatories,
use antiscia ? Do people find that they are indicative of success and
how are they used ? What about contra-antiscia ?
LILLY USED BY ANTISCIA AND CONTRA-ANTISCIA. I FIND THEM USEFUL IN MY
OWN HORARY CHARTS.

5. I am never sure how much attention to pay to semi-sextiles or
quincunxes intervening before a coming together of significators. My
experience is that unless they are with a benign planet they are not
generally indicative of overall success. What do others feel ?
I FIND THAT THE MINOR ASPECTS ARE USUALLY NOT TOO SIGNIFICANT UNLESS THEY ARE
THE ONLY ASPECTS OCCURING BETWEEN SIGNIFICATORS AND ARE FORTIFIED BY OTHER
FACTORS SUCH AS MUTUAL RECEPTIONS, ETC.

6. I know some people do not believe in using the trans-Saturnian
planets, but I do as I do not believe we can turn back the clock. My
experience is that, broadly speaking, one should use traditional
significators except for obviously unsuitable things, so electronic
communication would be ruled by Uranus rather than Mercury. Is this
fair comment ? I also find that where, say, the moon or a significator
makes a hard aspect to a trans-Saturnian planet before there is a
union of significators, the trans-Saturnian planet is more than likely
to deny success. Is that others' views ?
IF YOU DECIDE TO USE TRADITIONAL METHODS, I THINK IT IS BEST TO IGNORE THE
TRANS-STATURNIAN PLANETS. MODERN HORARY TECHIQUES, OF COURSE, USE THEM. I
BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE MANY SYSTEMS OF HORARY ANALYSIS, BUT THAT ONE SHOULD
BE INTERNALLY CONSISTENT AND STICK TO A PARTICULAR SYSTEM WHEN READING A
CHART.

I should be very interested to see your and others' points of view on
these matters.

Nicholas Grier
Napier University

HOPE THIS IS USEFUL. I'LL BE INTERESTED TO READ WHAT OTHERS THINK.

TONY

Thread:	HOrary Charts
From:	"Nicholas Grier" <n.grier@napier.ac.uk>	Date:	Thu, 13 Feb 1997 02:43:09 -0800

Dear Carol
I have been given your name by Deborah Houlding to whom I had written
suggesting various matters which I thought might be worth airing in
her excelllent magazine.
She suggested, however, that your discussion group might be a more
suitable venue, and she kindly gave me your email address.

The matters I raised with her are various technical questions
concerning horary questions. I should be interested in your and any
one else's views.

1. Do you think it is valid to re-ask questions even if you receive a
negative answer the first time ? For instance, if you ask "Will such
and such happen to me ?" do you think that if you receive a negative
answer that means that that answer stands for all time, or do you
think it merely stands until such time as you have altered the
situation by taking further steps towards achieving the desired
result.

2. Equally, is it valid to ask "Will such and such happen within the
next two years ?" Can one see that far ahead ? I ask because, for
example, I understand Tarot readers are unlikely to prognosticate that
far ahead, though of ocurse Indian astrologers often prognosticate
many years ahead -with alarming accuracy !

3. Does anyone use parallels and contraparallels in their
interpretations ? Do they work ? Can an intervening parallel impede
success ? What are others' experiences ?

4. Does anyone, apart from Flamsteed when setting up observatories,
use antiscia ? Do people find that they are indicative of success and
how are they used ? What about contra-antiscia ?

5. I am never sure how much attention to pay to semi-sextiles or
quincunxes intervening before a coming together of significators. My
experience is that unless they are with a benign planet they are not
generally indicative of overall success. What do others feel ?

6. I know some people do not believe in using the trans-Saturnian
planets, but I do as I do not believe we can turn back the clock. My
experience is that, broadly speaking, one should use traditional
significators except for obviously unsuitable things, so electronic
communication would be ruled by Uranus rather than Mercury. Is this
fair comment ? I also find that where, say, the moon or a significator
makes a hard aspect to a trans-Saturnian planet before there is a
union of significators, the trans-Saturnian planet is more than likely
to deny success. Is that others' views ?

I should be very interested to see your and others' points of view on
these matters.

Nicholas Grier
Napier University

Thread:	Third party questions
From:	RGrable604@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 12 Feb 1997 10:04:16 -0800

Hi Pat,
Joy hearing from you. As far as missing party is concern according the
Lilly and Coley the Ascendany and ruler is aways used if you do no know the
person it futher states if you know the person as an aquaintance use the
Seventh or if it is a friend the 11 Please exlain about third party
questions and I'll try to answer but these rules are for the classic thanks
again for writing

love
Rodger

Thread:	Third party questions
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:40:22 -0800

Dear Sue,

Many thanks for your discussion on significators for "strangers" re: house
rulerships - much appreciated, as always.

I have done quite a few missing persons charts and found Lilly's use of
Ascendant for the missing person to work very well in forecasting whether
the person will be found alive or not and even the location. However, I
think it was Osmar who suggested that the 9th would be very effective but I
haven't had the time to try this out with my missing persons questions, yet.
But isn't a missing person question a third party question, in that you are
seeking information about someone and putting them on the first house with
you as querent? In this instance, the significator would describe you and
the missing person in the same way unless, by placing the missing person on
the first you displaced yourself to the 7th ...... Where does the astrologer
go in a missing person question and where does the querent go in a third
party question according to describing significators?

Love,



Pat.

Thread:	Update mailinglists
From:	tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma)	Date:	Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:29:31 -0800

The following international Newsgroups, Mailinglists and Newsletters for
astrology are now available:

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==========

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Love,
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---
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---

Thread:	Solving the Unabomber Mystery with Astrology
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:36:43 -0800

I thought the members of the list would enjoy this post by Roger Satterlee
who discovered the alleged Unabomber's birthdate using his knowledge of
astrology.
I am quite impressed by his insight. He reasoned that the Unabomber must
have Jupiter in Gemini because of his insistent need to publicize his ideas
in his voluminous manifesto. He then looked for close Saturn/Uranus aspects
because of the theme of frustration (Saturn) with technology (Uranus). He
placed the sun (personal sense of identiy) in close aspect to the
Saturn/Uranus conjunction and came up with the date 5/22/42 on his first try.
This is the date of Ted Koczynski's birth. Rather remarkable. Below is
Roger's post briefly explaining his method. This is astrology at its best.

Best Wishes,

Tony
===========
In a message dated 97-02-01 15:49:44 EST, roger9@ix.netcom.com (Roger L.
Satterlee) writes:
<<
I became interested in the Unabomber case when all the media focused on
the Times publication of his manifesto.
Because I have been making what seems a natural progression from sun
sign astrology's broad catagories to the more intimate veiw of people as
distinctly patterned individuals, I have sought for a means to appreciate
the individual behaviors of persons and then link astrology's symbols those
rather specific behaviors. The idea is similar to a refinement of such
things as graphology, I suppose, but much more detailed...sometimes...:)
It seems people best identify themselves when they use their
creativity; any creative turn of a phrase, or projected image, is a 'poetry'
of sorts and has its roots in the same patterns of symbols we find developed
in the art of astrology. For instance, when Melville's Ahab nails a gold
coin at the bottom of a mast in Moby Dick, this creates an image which is
essentially a gold circle at the bottom of a verticle line; futher, this
circle represents a reward for anyone sighting 'the whale'--the top of the
mast is where one can best see a whale in the distance. Well this more or
less confirms the natal pattern we find in Melvilles case--Sun H4 opp Jup
H10.
Having read many books and viewed many more paintings with an eye for
these connections, these parallels of self symbolism, I think there are more
such assoiations to be cataloged in this way (that is why I compared it to
graphology...the search is similar, cataloging shapes and positionings of
'objects' which have little meaning by themselves).

The Unabomber was very prolific but not too generous with creative
passages: though I do not profess to know what forensic psychologists look
for, exactly, I suspect they would often miss the astological parallels due
to their lack of astrology's symbol 'vocabulary' As an aside, I simply
accept that Jung and Campbell were not wrong about the near universal
employment of circles, crosses, etc., across cultures--the meaning of a
circle is not defined mere social convention alone. I wondered where did
"FC", as he presented himself, use symbols I could access as astrological
parallels: I compare compare the two arts--writing, and horoscopy.
The best 'artistic' expressions of the fictional character FC should
have astrological equivalents just as Melville's Ahab, or even a pop culture
expression like Chubby Checker and his 'twist'(see Sat conj Ura, '41-42).
There seems to exist in persons a penchant for purely symbolic vocabulary
which is adapted to culture; and this happens, if for no other reason,
simply because we are human. So, where did this person employ a circle, for
instance, 'artistically': or, as well, as John Douglas would put it, what
did he do that wasn't necessary--this could be part of a 'signature' (for my
purposes an astrological pattern with is a kind of signature--perhaps a
birthdate).
Late in the manifesto, FC makes an analogy or at least projects a
visual image which employs a circle. He states that men are a hazard to our
environ and that even if primitive or isolated they would again start to
regain technology, or something to that effect. His *reasoning* I simply
ignored: his mental picture was his signature, his poem, his painting, his
sculpture, etc.. He stated that it would be necessary for men to dam a
stream and build a water wheel to generate electricity even to power the
small shops of tradesmen--then he said this could not be done because they
would probably not have enough copper wire. The image of twisted coils of
wire in a circle and their not being available introduced Sun, Neptune,
Uranus, Saturn, and most likely Mars as the red metal.
I thought about what damming a steam could be as a Saturn restriction
of a flowing stream (Neptune); it had to be a Sat/Nep aspect which
incorporate Ura with an equal measure of importance.
Being that only a few occasions arose for major aspect like this, the
conjuntion of Sat/Ura--'no electricity--had to be a trine to Neptune for
there were no other major aspects available in the man's age range.
This I saw I could place Jupiter in Gemini as a need to publish his
'wisdom'. Jupiter in Gemini worked for a number of reasons and that this
yeilds two different possible years, 1942 or 1953.
Though I first set up a chart using Astrolog and placed the Sun
conjunct Sat/Ura 5/22/42, I will tell you now I made the mistake of
accepting the younger man based only on the false lead of the published
sketch. The drawing seem to indicate the younger man so I had to chose
between Sat conj Ura, '42, or Sat conj Nep, '53' the main difference being
the role of Jupiter--Gemini seemed right but was it trine or square in its
relationship to Nep.
So my first try on my screen was 5/22/42, but I let the opinion of
others drift into my considerations, I opted to search for a patteren based
on the Juipter position.
The date about, 7/2753, offered Jupiter in Gemini (which I wanted to
hold constant regardless) gives a figure where Saturn could be conj Nep and
square Ura. These two year patterns are the only ones I considered. Because
The sun needs be involved in this aspect figure, I also briefly considered
Sun conj Sat/Nept in '53.
So, I had a total of three charts, and for reasons yet unknown to me,
ignored my primary image--The Sun conj Sat/Ura...Gosh, I hate it when I do
something this stupid...and I may never get a chance to do this sort of
thing again. My mistake was about the apparent need for something more
explosive in the chart...It seemed people wanted to see Sun or Moon /Plu
when I talked to them about these charts...big mistake, I'll not listen
again...:)

Best wishes,

Rog

PS I forgot to mention that I really thought the most poetic image was the
idea of a pipe bomb in book called "Ice Brothers"-- this matches my
original 5/22/42 guess perfectly... I truly think I'm self-defeating...:)

roger9@ix.netcom.com
11:53PM EDT 26Jul50 76W48 42N06
http://www.netcom.com/~roger9/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7406

Thread:	House rulerships
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Sun, 9 Feb 1997 01:12:59 -0800

>Dear Sue,
>
>Many thanks for your observations on 1st and 7th houses. In CA, p154, 4th
>para. Lilly advises that if the person is a stranger to the querent, "to
>whom she had no relation" then the 7th signifies that person.

Yes, this is a sticky phrase, but I suspect it's semantics again. For
starters, why would anyone ask if a person was at home if they had no
dealings with them? I suppose there might be occasions when this is true,
but how rare? And besides you will be making a relationship with them, else
you wouldn't be asking the question. Later in that paragraph, referring to
the quesited party he says: "...to whom she would speak...". This surely
implies a relationship in the present or in the future, as you might assume
in a house sale chart. The buyer is usually a stranger to you, but becomes a
7th house matter because of that relationship, even though you might not yet
have found a buyer, as in: will I sell my house. Even these days, there is
still contact between the two parties, albeit often indirect.

>I have taken the 1st for the significator of someone I don't know if I am
>"in sympathy" with them. This seems to work but in the case of John Hume I
>wondered about his "leadership" position possibly indicating he should come
>under another category. Perhaps it is important to reflect on the degree of
>identification one might have with a person not known to one and not
>directly classified as one's own leader in order to define whether it is
>strong enough to denote that the 1st is the most appropriate house. As

I understand this argument, but as with everything else in horary it can be
taken too far. This identification of the querent with the quesited is valid
up to a point. The sorts of charts I've had where this seems to work best is
when the querent has the quesited's 'permission' to ask. For example, in the
rules on signification in illness questions. At one time I had a few
questions from a social worker who was in charge of a case of child abuse.
The child was the social worker's business, and she was like a guardian for
that child. Here she could ask a question perhaps on the child's behalf, but
also as an *effective* interested party. I underline 'effective' because
this is usually the clue to clear third party questions. If you can affect
the situation and/or it has a direct and personal effect on you then you
probably have a right to ask and thus will receive an answer.

The infamous 'bottom line' is that you must secure any significator through
it's description. Lilly used physical and temperament descriptions to
justify his choice, we do this very, very little.

I'd be very interested to hear other people's views on third party
questions, ie. questions that do not directly relate to the querent's life.
I have to say that I have rarely seen a clear chart result from these
questions and I wonder if the astrologer runs the risk of committing the
worst of all crimes: interference in someone else's life.

Sincerely

Sue


The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Per Minute charges on phone lines filed with the FCC
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Sat, 8 Feb 1997 09:00:27 -0800

Dear Carol,

I hope you guys are doing better. Enclosed is important information, please
spread the word so we can continue to afford internet use!

love,
dorothy
>Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:44:11 -0800 (PST)
>From: MCN Business Manager <mcn@mcn.org>
>To: dstar
>Subject: Per Minute charges on phone lines filed with the FCC
>
>The FCC is currently reviewing a matter which may directly effect you,
>an MCN customer and Internet user. I'm forwarding you the following
>message for your information. You may also wish to read the Reuters
>news article at:
>
> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,7723,4000.html?latest
>
>
>"Hi from Tim (Badge) on IRC Cops I am writing you this to inform you
>of a very important matter currently under review by the FCC. Your local
>telephone company has filed a proposal with the FCC to impose per
>minute charges for your internet service. They contend that your usage
>has or will hinder the operation of the telephone network. It is our belief
>that internet usage will diminish if users were required to pay additional
>per minute charges. The FCC has created an email box for your comments,
>responses must be received by February 13, 1997. Send your comments
>to isp@fcc.gov and tell them what you think. Every phone company is in
>on this one, and they are trying to sneak it in just under the wire for
>litiagation."
>
>Please send email to the following address clearly stating your opinion
>about this issue:
>
>
>isp@fcc.gov
>
>
>Rennie Innis
>MCN Business Manager
>
>

Thread:	House rulerships
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Fri, 7 Feb 1997 12:46:11 -0800

Dear Sue,

Many thanks for your observations on 1st and 7th houses. In CA, p154, 4th
para. Lilly advises that if the person is a stranger to the querent, "to
whom she had no relation" then the 7th signifies that person.

I have taken the 1st for the significator of someone I don't know if I am
"in sympathy" with them. This seems to work but in the case of John Hume I
wondered about his "leadership" position possibly indicating he should come
under another category. Perhaps it is important to reflect on the degree of
identification one might have with a person not known to one and not
directly classified as one's own leader in order to define whether it is
strong enough to denote that the 1st is the most appropriate house. As
Northern Ireland is part of the UK, the British Government is the Government
of Northern Ireland and so John Hume is a leader of an opposition party to
the government of the country in which I live. Many thanks for the
valuable responses. It has been very interesting to hear everyone else's
approaches and also much appreciated.

May I ask another question? If the question is about enrolments on a course
provided by a school in higher education are those enrolments counted as
"students" or "income" and which house would they come under? I am taking
the 9th for the school, itself on the basis that I, as querent, am, in the
main, a voluntary worker for the school so do not see it as my employer even
though I receive a nominal sum for some duties.

Look forward to hearing from everyone again.

Regards to all,

Pat.

Thread:	House rulerships
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:21:22 -0800

I agree with Dorothy's use of the 1st - the 7th usually, if not always,
implies a relationship with the querent, no matter how weak or transient.
The 7th has come to be called 'the house of the other', but this is really
an abbreviation for '...the other with whom the querent is in relationship
with'. I think that the reason the 7th has been used for so long as the
stranger is that as an angle it must always be important in any chart.
Perhaps this is how it has managed to show itself as prominent in such charts.

Sue

>>example. But if the person is not missing but is simply absent and is not a
>>relative or friend or is not someone who can be categorised as a leader,
>
>I take the 1st house rulership for those I have no personal attachment to, as
>you say, following "Lilly's example". This works much better for me.
>
>>I've seen other horary practitioners take the seventh house for that person.
>>If the person was an open enemy or opposing the querent in the matter then
>>the 7th house would also be taken.
>
>But then you have a personal attachment, you dislike or oppose, or hate this
>person. So the person has a function, he/she is your enemy.
>
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	ASTROWIN 1.50
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:57:35 -0800

Is it possible to get updates for existing versions of Astrowin?

Regards

Angela

Thread:	Post to horary list, please
From:	allen edwall <76401.275@compuserve.com>	Date:	Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:03:22 -0800

Hi, Angela,

>> your definitions do make sense, but I would say from a 'modernistic'
view point - and I think the whole discussion tended to revolve around
Lilly's point of view and how people interpreted his words.

But we need to understand the principle he was trying to teach over and
above the words he used (especially since his words are what's causing
everyone's problem). I believe I explained things in a traditional way as
well as in a more modern way. That was my intent anyway.

>> In essence, what is implied by CA? Personally, I do agree with you, but
the question is, did Lilly?

That's what nobody seems to know or to be able to agree on. So I figured
out what made sense to me yet breaks none of what I understand Lilly to
mean. Everyone can decide for themselves where the Truth lies.


Allen

Thread:	Void of course Moon
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:20:34 -0800

you wrote:
>Hi Dorothy, thanks for a very apt interpretation of VOC Moon, however,
wouldn't
>the fact that Moon sextiles Mars before leaving her sign of Gemini also

>show the operation which would ultimately be necessary?

Hi Angela,
Yes that is what happened. Deb had reason to take me to task for
oversimplifying. She has a valid point when she says, "I personally dislike
is the strict adherence to technical 'limits' at the risk of considering the
chart as a whole." What I think your describing, is the commonly understood
view of a void Moon, in that the Moon is NOT Void because it will sextile
Mars. However, Mars changes signs before this takes place, so looking at it
from your point of veiw the Moon refrains from perfecting the sextile.

What I was trying to show, albeit too briefly, was that the Moon could be
void and yet make an aspect while in the same sign. Since the Moon was not
in moiety of any planet, AT THE TIME THE QUESTION WAS ASKED, the Moon was void.

So what's a moiety, this is very simplified, please read Sue Ward's article
in the Horary Practioner, Issue 4 pge5. According to Websters International
Dictionary, moiety means one of two equal parts. "Moeity is half the
traditional orb of a planet." (Sue Ward Horary Practioner #4) Below are the
moeities of the planets according to William Lilly(CA107).

Moeity
5 Saturn 5
6 Jupiter 6
3 45' Mars 3 45'
8 30' Sun 8 30'
4 Venus 4
3 30' Mercury 3 30'
6 15' Moon 6 15'

The type of V/C Moon, I saw in the will the baby turn chart, was what Allen
Edwall succinctly describes in his cojent recent post as Void Moon"Case 2 -
Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the same sign BUT the Moon is
NOT already within orb to said planet."

AT THE TIME OF THE QUESTION, the Moon is not in moiety of aspect to any
planet. The Moon has a moiety of 6degrees and 15 minutes in iether
direction, that is she sends her influence forward toward anything 6degrees
and 15' ahead of her or vice versa. The Moon at the time of the question is
at 14Gemini7, adding 6degrees15' to the Moon, you get 20 Gemini22'. This is
as far forward as the Moon's influence goes. Mars has a moiety in eithr
direction of 3degrees and 45'. Mars is at 29leo 38' subtracting 3 degrees
and 45' and you get 25degrees53'. So Mars' casts his influence back to
25degrees53'. AT THE TIME OF THE QUESTION. The Moon is shy of being within
moiety of the sextile aspect to Mars, and therefore, it was to my way of
thinking, the Moon did not aspect Mars.

Hope this makes the #2 v/c moon more clear.
Fondly,
Dorothy

Thread:	Post to horary list, please
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Wed, 5 Feb 1997 02:58:06 -0800

Hi Allen, yes, your definitions do make sense, but I would say from a
'modernistic' view point - and I think the whole discussion tended to revolve
around Lilly's point of view and how people interpreted his words. In
essence, what is implied by CA. Personally, I do agree with you, but the
question is, did Lilly?

Regards

Angela

Thread:	Post to horary list, please
From:	allen edwall <76401.275@compuserve.com>	Date:	Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:07:22 -0800

Howdy, all,

It seems to me that we are getting lost in all this definition stuff for
void of course Moon. No matter what your definition there are four cases we
have to worry about.

Case 1 - Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the same sign and
the Moon is already within orb to said planet.

Case 2 - Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the same sign BUT
the Moon is NOT already within orb to said planet.

Case 3 - Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the NEXT sign and
the Moon is already within orb to said planet.

Case 4 - Moon is applying to an aspect with a planet in the NEXT sign BUT
the Moon is NOT already within orb to said planet and will not be within
orb until after the Moon changes sign.

Ok.

For case 1 interpretation - Some action will occur relatively quickly based
upon the nature of the planet the Moon is aspecting and also the type of
aspect (Moon already within orb).

For case 2 interpretation - NO action will occur for some time, but then
some action will occur based upon the nature of the planet the Moon is
aspecting and also the type of aspect (action occurs when Moon gets within
orb).

For case 3 interpretation - Some action will occur relatively quickly based
upon the nature of the planet the Moon is aspecting and also the type of
aspect BUT something will first change (Moon changing signs) before that
action occurs.

For case 4 interpretation - This is probably true VOC because nothing will
happen, then some change will occur that changes the whole result regarding
the original question.

>From a logical point of view the above seems to break no rule or guideline
and we have preserved the PRINICPLE of a void of course body without
getting lost in definitions and rhetoric.

Does this make sense to anyone? I think it does to me.


Allen

Thread:	House rulerships
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:46:30 -0800

At 07:26 PM 2/3/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>I'd like, now, to have some feedback on rulerships. For example, when I ask
>questions about missing persons I take the first house as per Lilly's
>example. But if the person is not missing but is simply absent and is not a
>relative or friend or is not someone who can be categorised as a leader,

I take the 1st house rulership for those I have no personal attachment to, as
you say, following "Lilly's example". This works much better for me.

>I've seen other horary practitioners take the seventh house for that person.
>If the person was an open enemy or opposing the querent in the matter then
>the 7th house would also be taken.

But then you have a personal attachment, you dislike or oppose, or hate this
person. So the person has a function, he/she is your enemy.

>Now, suppose I want to ask a question about John Hume, the leader of the
>SDLP (a political party) in Northern Ireland. Do I take the 10th because he
>is a "leader" - even though not of the party in power?

My tendency here, and mind you, I am only speaking for myself, if are not
from Northern Ireland, then he is not your opposition leader. Therefore, you
have little or no attachment to the outcome, I would choose the Ascendent
ruler. However, since I am a native of the USA, if I to ask a question
regarding Newt Gingrich, the Republican speaker of the House, I would use
the ruler of the 4th house because he is the opposition leader to the
president. Clinton as my president is signified by the ruler of the 10th(CA55).

> Or do I, because I
>identify with him, take the Ascendant as representing him? If he were not
>the leader of a party but an ordinary person with whom I identified but who
>did not know me, would I take the Ascendant then or, because there is no
>relationship, would I take the 7th?

Again, if I really have no attachment to the person, or cannot classify them
as, president, boss, etc, then I chose the 1st house. Less confusion for me.
I have learned these other ways in the "simplified" methods in the Ivy
Jacobsen methods, but prefer the 1st house rulership for strangers.



Hope this helps!

Dorothy J. Kovach
dstar@mcn.org

Thread:	Void of course Moon
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:34:39 -0800

>Dear Deb,
>
>You are absolutely right! I did greatly shorten my explanation just to show
the "graphics" of what I call an "insign void opf course Moon. I had no
intention that the chart was meant to be looked at as anything more than
that. I was acting according to the old adage, " one picture equals 1000
words." Sorry if I oversimplified.
>
>I was, however, under the impression that the Moon is not Void if it will
perfect the aspect to the Part of Fortune. Are you saying that because the
Part of Fortune is not a planet that this is not so? I would be interested
in what others think about this.
>
>Sorry all for being too brief. I did consider the saturn/s.node, and the
angular mars originally, and should have been clearer about also taking that
into consideration in my post. But once again, I was only trying to show
what an "in -sign void moon" might look like. And now you tell me that it
wasnt so at all!!
>
>Thanks Deb for keeping me on my toes!
>
>Fondly,
>Dorothy
>
>
>At 08:48 PM 2/3/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Hi Dorothy,
>>
>>You write:
>>
>>>I thought it might be helpful to demonstrate the Void Moon, that Sue and
>>Jonathon are describing in a horary. By Void, I mean, one that is not
>>applying to any planet, at the time of the question, even though it will be
>>within moeity of aspect (it will conjoin the part of fortune) before it
>>changes signs, using a horary question from this list. <
>>
>>
>>The main problem I have with your demonstration horary, is that the Moon
>>would be considered void of course by both definitions, as it perfects no
>>apect to any of the planets before they change signs. The only contact it
>>makes is to the Part of Fortune which isn't a planet.
>>
>>I also find it difficult to isolate one element of the chart as holding the
>>key to the answer. So many other factors in the chart are relevant too.
>>For example, Saturn in the 5th conjunct SN, showing the difficult birth,
>>and such a prominent Mars, crowning the chart and ruling the ascendant and
>>the 5th - a classic sign of the surgery at birth associated with
>>caesarians. (Of course I won't mention Pluto rising!)
>>
>>I would also consider this Moon to be void but whereas you say: 'the Moon
>>acted quite Void in this situation, and nothing came of the baby turning'
>>to me it's saying more than that, and indicating a long, hard, difficult
>>labour is in store. Void of course Moons always remind me of Lilly's quote
>>'all matters go hardly' because without the energy of the Moon to assist or
>>destroy, issues remain slow and difficult to resolve.
>>
>>Best wishes
>>Deb
>>
>>
>>
>

Thread:	House rulerships
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:18:46 -0800

>Pat:
Re your question reproduced below:
>
>>I'd like, now, to have some feedback on rulerships. For example, when I ask
>questions about missing persons I take the first house as per Lilly's
>example. But if the person is not missing but is simply absent and is not a
>relative or friend or is not someone who can be categorised as a leader,
>I've seen other horary practitioners take the seventh house for that person.
>If the person was an open enemy or opposing the querent in the matter then
>the 7th house would also be taken. I've also read a technique where, in a
>question about winning teams, the horary astrologer has taken the 7th for
>the team if he did not support it and the 1st if he did, on the grounds that
>he identified with that team so that, I suppose, he and the team were one,
>e.g. the first house or Ascendant ruled the querent and the team.
>
>Now, suppose I want to ask a question about John Hume, the leader of the
>SDLP (a political party) in Northern Ireland. Do I take the 10th because he
>is a "leader" - even though not of the party in power? Or do I, because I
>identify with him, take the Ascendant as representing him? If he were not
>the leader of a party but an ordinary person with whom I identified but who
>did not know me, would I take the Ascendant then or, because there is no
>relationship, would I take the 7th?
>
Basic point to consider:

Why is the question being asked?

I have just gone through a rather sobering experience regarding a third
party horary which refused to obey every rule I could quote from Lilly.

Like Prospero in The Tempest I was tempted to break my staff and declare
that "this rough magic I now abjure" but I have slowly and painfully begun
to realise how much I had forgotten that astrology deserved greater respect
than I had shown it by asking some rather inappropriate questions - and us
Geminis are prone to throw questions at almost anything that moves!

If, for example, John Hume called me and asked a question about the
political situation in Northern Ireland I would have no hesitation in
answering it (apart from a serious attack of nerves, probably) but,
certainly in the light of my recent experience, I would be disinclined to
ask a question myself out of academic interest unless it were a matter of
life or death as described on p. 151 of Christian Astrology

Others may disagree but I for one shall let this subject go.

All good wishes,
Jonathon

Thread:	House rulerships
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 1997 20:14:14 -0800

In a message dated 97-02-03 15:40:20 EST, you write:

<<
Now, suppose I want to ask a question about John Hume, the leader of the
SDLP (a political party) in Northern Ireland. Do I take the 10th because he
is a "leader" - even though not of the party in power? >>

If it is a political contest, I would take the 10th for the person in power
and the opposite 4th for his or her opponent.

Tony

Thread:	Definition of Void of Course
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Tue, 4 Feb 1997 01:03:14 -0800

Hi Deb, I do applaude your comment "What I personally dislike is the strict
aderence to techinical 'limits' at the risk of considering the chart as a
whole." Speaking as novice, it is so easy to become entrapped in looking at
the do's and don'ts, and not give credence to the entirety of the chart. I
suppose it's remembering that every chart is totally unique unto itself, as
'twere.

Regards

Angela

Thread:	Void of course Moon
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:55:14 -0800

Hi Dorothy, thanks for a very apt interpretation of VOC Moon, however, wouldn't
the fact that Moon sextiles Mars before leaving her sign of Gemini also
show the operation which would ultimately be necessary? Mars signifying
knives, blood, etc etc, plus being in the 10th house of authority, cld
surely indicate the professionals(surgeons) doing their job? Thus validating
the use of aspects '....during his being in that signe...'

Very interesting.

Regards

Angela

Thread:	House rulerships
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:40:07 -0800

Hi Pat, I can't give you a definitive answer, I'll leave that to better
able people. I am only too painfully aware of how important the correct
significator is. One piece of advice I was given which I do sometimes find
very helpful to remember, is 'let the chart tell you'. I know this isn't
always clear cut, but it is often very easy to forget, by the time you've
looked at this rule and remembered to apply such and such a stricture, oh, and
don't overlook so and so, it is so easy to forget to let the chart speak to
you, and sometimes (not always, but very often) that is all you need. It may
not work in your particular case, but, just as an exercise, try it. Identify
all the possible significators, and then see if any one describes the person,
their situation, and their standing in the community, better than any of the
other alternatives.

Best of luck

Angela

Thread:	Void of course Moon
From:	allen edwall <76401.275@compuserve.com>	Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:27:11 -0800

Hello, all,

>> If the chart above looks a mess to some of you, I apologize, Allen
Edwall can
tell you why this is.

You must view the chart with a font that is non-proportional, in other
words, all characters are a constant width. Courier New is such a font. In
my browser when I hit CTRL-T I move from a proportional to a
non-proportional font and back.


Allen

Thread:	Definition of Void of Course
From:	Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@compuserve.com>	Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:54:28 -0800

Angela, you write:

>The only part I would query is when Deb states that Lilly
was following Dariot, and hence, at 2 degs of Aries, Moon could be declared

VOC, even if applying at 22 degs of Aries, but it is still Lilly's words
that
state 'during his being in that sign' - surely that is plainly stating the

parameters being for the remaining duration of stay within sign? <

-----

Just want to clarify that I wasn't making this point myself, I was just
giving the other point of view. I remain as yet unconvinced -- though
open-minded -- that this is what Lilly meant.

In my own practise I will always consider the Moon's aspects throughout the
whole sign, but I don't give them equal significance. I have to agree that
aspects already in orb are much more pertinent, and I think that Sue's
research should be read in full by those considering this issue because it
gives a lot of food for thought and has a great deal of sensitive
understanding attached t