Thread:	A question
From:	Joanne Greig <astrea@actrix.co.at>	Date:	Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:21:55 -0800

I sent this direct to Dorothy by mistake and am now forwarding to the list,

ajg

>Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:17:40 +0100
>To: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>
>From: Joanne Greig <astrea@actrix.co.at>
>Subject: Re: a question
>
>Dear Dorothy and Deb (who also replied to my question),
>
>re: Will the business sell within a year
>
>I read your replies with interest and calculated a Regiomantus chart for the
>time which I received the message in Vienna. When I did this I could see
>that the Moon had just turned VOC and the Ascendant was at 29 Leo - which in
>both cases would militate against being able to give a clear reading - as was
>the case. I am going to send a message back to Annie and ask her to ask
>Peter to give me a call. In this way I will be very sure who is asking the
>question and at what time. Though the chart will be different for Vienna and
>New Zealand. If I understand correctly, I should use my location as I am giving
>the reading. I will probably write again if I run into more problems. (I guess
>Lilly didn't have to deal with modern communications media spanning the
globe.)
>
>You have also clarified the matter about the outer planets/house rulerships
etc.
>So something good can come from the Moon being VOC after all.
>
>I felt tempted to give up on horary and ask Tarot the question as I always
used to. But
>I am studying the symbolism of Tarot at the moment and don't really feel like
>using it for divination just at the moment. I will persever with the horary
approach!
>
>
>Thanks very much,
>
>Joanne
>
>
>
>At 20:41 30-01-97 -0700, you wrote:
>>Hi Joanne and welcome to this wonderful list.
>>
>>>you wrote:
>>>the next horary was somewhat more complicated.
>>
>>>The situation is this: a group of friends owns a garden nursery
>>> Peter, had asked me for an astrology reading as to whether or not
>>>the business would be sold this year. They couldn't be sure exactly when he
>>>decided to ask this question, but she sent me the question at 1:02:06 PM NZ
>>>Daylight Saving TIme on Jan 23 1997 from New Plymouth, New Zealand (174E05',
>>>39S04')
>>
>>I would take the time and YOUR OWN LOCATION ( ie your co-ordinates and time)
>>when you come to understand as closely as you possibly can, EXACTLY what the
>>client is asking.
>>
>>So, because you weren't clear as to location, or time I will answer the
>>question when I, as the astrologer comes to understand the question. To
>>Jonathon and others re: " on the time of the question" thread, I will
>>generally take the time and location from the question as presented on the
>>list, EXCEPT when the location or time is not correct (as in this case, to
>>my way of thinking) or if I didnt understand it the first time I read it, as
>>in the case of "will the baby turn" a few months back.
>>
>>I avoid "OR" questions, If Peter were my client at the end of his
>>discussion I would ask, " are you saying, to me, that you want to know
>>whether your business will sell?" This is one of the most important but
>>overlooked facets of horary, making certain that you and the querent are
>>talking about the same thing.
>>
>>So I understand the question to be , "will I sell my business, this year?"
>>I come to understand this question at 8:19p jan 30 1997, here at my
>>location, 123w41,38n55.
>

Thread:	Void of course Moon
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:57:18 -0800

>Angela Reeves has made the following observations on this subject in reply
to a previous posting and I set out some thoughts after this text.

>I agree with Osmar about readings being obscure relating to VOC Moon and I

>would be equally interested to follow any discussion about this. My main

>problem is the variation of opinion, some say that the moon is VOC if she
is
>not in applying orb of an aspect; others say she is not VOC if she will
aspect
>a planet before leaving her current sign, notwithstanding the fact that she
is
>not in orb at that particular time.

>
>Much seems to depend on how a person interprets Lilly's words, very
difficult
>in ye olde Englishe. On page 112CA, Lilly states " A planet is void of
course
>when he is separated from a planet, nor doth forthwith, during his being in

>that sign, apply to any other." Admittedly the dictionary definition of

>'forthwith' is immediately; but, equally as strongly does the definintion
of
>'during his being in that sign' imply that as long as application commences

>before the planet/Moon leaves the current sign, then it is not VOC.

>
>It is obtuse, admittedly. Another confusing example is on p165CA, where the

>chart refers to a shipwreck, Lilly states " ...... and then did not
presently
>apply to the good aspect of any benevolent planet, but was void of course
and
>then again continued her application out of the fourth to Saturn...." -
when
>in fact application is already under way, the Moon being at 10deg44 Virgo,
and
>Saturn at 15deg5 Taurus, to all intents and purposes the Moon appears to be

>applying by trine to Saturn, so why VOC?

>
>A tad confusing!

>
>May I offer the following thoughts which I posted to the list a few weeks
ago in response to a query from Andrew Smith about election sharts.
>
>The definition which has been widely used by contemporary astrologers, is
that the moon (or any other planet) is void of course when it has completed
its last major aspect before leaving a sign. However, this is not quite what
was meant by the traditional definitions.

Dariot in chapter 9 of "Judgement of the Stars" (1583) says void of course
is "when one planet [is] separating himself from another [and] doth not
apply to any other during the time he tarryeth in that sign" while Lilly
writes on page 112 of Christian Astrology "A planet is void of course when
he is separated from a planet, nor doth forthwith, during his being in that
sign, apply to another."

In both cases it is the application which is important, not the perfection
of the aspect. Perfection can occur in the following sign as per Abraham ibn
Ezra (11th. Century) - p. 209 of "The Beginning of Wisdom" where he says "If
the two planets should be in two signs and each of them should be in the
force of the other's body, they must not be said to be in conjunction,
because they are in different signs. That is the opinion of the ancient
scientists but I, Abraham, the compiler of this book, disagree with them."

There is a slight difference here in that the effect of the conjunction
occurs (he doesn't include aspects, incidentally, - do others have a view on
this?) only when both planets are in each other's orbs. I take this to mean,
for example, that the moon would have to be within three and a half degrees
of Venus (half the orb, or moiety, of Venus) even though it has commenced
its application around seven degrees from Venus.

I think the source of your reference is probably Maurice McCann's article in
Volume 63, number 1 of the Astrology Quarterly but this should be read in
conjunction (no astrological pun intended) with Sue Ward's reply in the
following issue which takes up the traditional argument in much more detail
arguing for the defnitions I have quoted and which I understand were
accepted by Maurice McCann.

The problem about p. 165 of Lilly is an interesting one and I offer the
following possibility.

Lilly was not precise in his usage of degrees to specify orbs - see p. 107
of CA - which can prove a source of irritation to those of us in a computer
age who, generally, like precision. I think here he is using the general
sense of the chart. The Moon is 4 degrees 21 minutes from perfecting its
aspect to Saturn which is only just inside the joint orbs necessary for the
application to be deemed to be valid.

While this means that, technically, the application has begun, Lilly may
have decided, for example, to use an orb of four degrees for Saturn on this
occasion. If the application is considered to exist at all it is so weak
that it means nothing much is happpening while the eventual application to
trine Saturn shows the loss - along with much other supporting evidence.

Hope this helps,

Jonathon Clark

Thread:	An Announcement
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 31 Jan 1997 04:13:41 -0800

In a message dated 97-01-31 00:21:20 EST, you write:

<<
>Neato!! I will make it a point to get a hold of a copy. But did you change
your insurance policy or did your friends find the missing rings???
>
>lots o'luv,
>Dorothy J. Kovach
>dstar@mcn.org >>

Dorothy,

The rates change on the insurance policy in May, so I decided to wait until
then to make a decision.

My friend still has not found the wedding ring that she inherited from her
mother. She is immensely grateful for all the responses which I forwarded to
her. One of her suspicions is that someone who was staying at her house
deliberately took it, but she has no proof and it is possible that she simply
lost it. I am hopeful that she will eventually find it.

Tony

Thread:	Drivers Licence
From:	Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@compuserve.com>	Date:	Fri, 31 Jan 1997 03:43:51 -0800

Message text written by "Carol A. Wiggers"
>If someone could tell me which significator for the licence I'd appreciate
it, I'll be seeing them both again on Sunday.<

Hi Linda,

Use the second house for the driving licence. It is her personal possesion
and the 2nd house rules all movable possesions and goods. But also
consider the Moon which often acts as a general significator for a lost
item.

Best wishes,

Deb

Thread:	An Announcement
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Thu, 30 Jan 1997 20:52:41 -0800

>Dear Tony,
>
>you wrote:
>>FYI:
>>
>>I got word today that American Astrology Magazine will be publishing a short
>>article I wrote on the Unabomber, probably in the February issue.
>>
>>Tony
>>
>Neato!! I will make it a point to get a hold of a copy. But did you change
your insurance policy or did your friends find the missing rings???
>
>lots o'luv,
>Dorothy J. Kovach
>dstar@mcn.org
>

Thread:	Drivers Licence
From:	Linda Reid <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:34:58 -0800

Didi cannot find her drivers licence. It is a new one and she paid for a 5
year licence which is quite costly and will have to pay for a new one if it
isn't found. The last time she saw it was when she was helping her friend
Julie get ready for Julie's deceased partner's funeral. Julie was injured
in the accident that killed him and Didi picked her up from the hospital,
took her to her (Julie's) house and helped her get dressed then drove the
two of them to the funeral. She thinks she saw her licence when she was at
Julie's house but in the emotional trauma of the day isn't entirely certain.
She does know that she left her own house with it safely in the pocket of
her purse, in her handbag, but it is now missing. Both women are students
of mine ( broadbased astrology, so I don't feel too bad in admitting to them
that I only have basic horary skills). Julie in particular is an exceptional
student - I'd like to capture her attention with horary as part of her
healing. She is returning to study. Anyway, the point is, waffling on, which
house represents drivers licences!

Didi asked the question on Sunday 26th January 1997 at 2.57 pm Wynyard,
Tasmania 41S00 145E44 (-11) if anyone is interested in the chart.

Didi is a plump woman, dark ( Capricorn Sun) and very loving and sweet
natured, aged in her late 30's. She is a nurse who specialises in aged care
and dementia patients. She has never been in a serious relationship as she
nursed her own parents until their death, but far from being bitter as many
women are in those circumstances she speaks lovingly about her parents and
is a devoted friend and carer for many.

If someone could tell me which significator for the licence I'd appreciate
it, I'll be seeing them both again on Sunday.

Regards,

Linda

Thread:	An Announcement
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:06:07 -0800

FYI:

I got word today that American Astrology Magazine will be publishing a short
article I wrote on the Unabomber, probably in the February issue.

Tony

Thread:	A question
From:	Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@compuserve.com>	Date:	Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:53:06 -0800

Dear Joanne,


>One of the friends, Annie, sent me email to say that another one of the
friends, Peter, had asked me for an astrology reading as to whether or not
the business would be sold this year. They couldn't be sure exactly when
he
decided to ask this question, but she sent me the question at 1:02:06 PM NZ
Daylight Saving TIme on Jan 23 1997 from New Plymouth, New Zealand
(174E05',
39S04')
..... then, I thought that Annie was
actually relaying the question from someone else, a member of a group of
friends - even though she is also a seller of the business: and I wondered
if I should turn the chart to make the 11th house in Aquarius (Koch houses
-
or should I use Regiomontanus?) as the Asc. <

Your understanding of the question, and who it comes from, sounds too
confused to be able to give you anything but a confused reading of the
chart. The timing of the chart should not be based upon the time that
Peter asked the question, but upon the time that YOU understood it with
clarity and appreciated who was asking what, and what EXACTLY they wanted
to know.

If I was in your shoes I probably wouldn't try to read that horary but get
a message back to Peter to say that if he wants to consult you he should
approach you directly and explain his cirumstances and queries to you
personally. Otherwise, you're not really going to be sure whether you are
aswering Peter's question, your friend's, or your own.

The horary might well be valid, but if the question is valid then I'm sure
the contact that Peter makes with you will give an equally relevant chart
which will be a lot less complicated for a newcomer to use in assessing
significators.

Regarding the house system to use, it has become something of a convention
for horary astrologers to use the Regiomontanus system so if you are able
to calculate charts by this method, I'd recommend you try. I don't know
whether I'd argue for it giving 'better' results, but it certainly works as
well as any, so it seems sensible for you to opt for this if you have no
preference of your own.

You also ask about using traditional or modern rulers -- By far the
majority of horary practitioners use only the traditional planets as 'sign
rulers' and there is a good philosophy behind this that fits easily with
the traditional, predictive stance that horary offers. That doesn't mean
to say that you should ignore the outer planets, because if they are
strongly placed they could say something very relevant about the situation.
But remember, they are 'impersonal' planets and horaries are usually about
very 'personal' events. For them to be relevant in such a chart they have
to be tied in closely to one of the main significators. As a guideline,
many horary astrologers regard their influence in a similar manner to the
use of a powerful fixed star -- significant when it is prominently
positioned, but otherwise probably not saying much of direct relevance, and
certainly not to be used as a significator. I'm sure that some may want to
add their own views as opinions differ on that, but I would fully endorse
it by my own experience.

Best wishes with your studies,

Deb.

Thread:	A question
From:	Joanne Greig <astrea@actrix.co.at>	Date:	Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:42:29 -0800

Dear Friends,

This is my first post to this group. I am an astrology enthusiast and have
been studying it intensively over the last year or so. You could even say I
had developed something of a healthy obsession about the subject. I have
only recently discovered the joys of horary, and have been doing a little
reading on the subject, as well as enjoying the posts on this list. WIth
unerring accuracy, I seem to always get inquiries from people about the
things I am beginning to study which forces me to quickly learn something
about the subject. I recently got my first horary question from a friend
asking about whether she would get an apartment she had set her sights on.
I successfully divined that she would not: the Moon was VOC and there was no
aspect between the significators. So far so good. The next inquiry is
somewhat more complicated and I would appreciate any help that the more
experienced horary astrologers could give me on this one.
The situation is this: a group of friends owns a garden nursery in New
Zealand which they are trying to sell. (I also have shares in this company.)
One of the friends, Annie, sent me email to say that another one of the
friends, Peter, had asked me for an astrology reading as to whether or not
the business would be sold this year. They couldn't be sure exactly when he
decided to ask this question, but she sent me the question at 1:02:06 PM NZ
Daylight Saving TIme on Jan 23 1997 from New Plymouth, New Zealand (174E05',
39S04')

Initially I thought that the Asc. in Aries would be the seller, making Mars
the significator, and Venus the buyer. But then, I thought that Annie was
actually relaying the question from someone else, a member of a group of
friends - even though she is also a seller of the business: and I wondered
if I should turn the chart to make the 11th house in Aquarius (Koch houses -
or should I use Regiomontanus?) as the Asc.
In which case, would be significator be Saturn or Uranus? (Sun is conj.
Uranus.)
If we only use the traditional rulers, the outer planets would be excluded.
In this case the Moon is at 26:06 Cancer and the last aspect it makes before
leaving Cancer is an opposition to Neptune - if we exclude the outer
planets, does this mean it is VOC?

It would be very helpful to hear your views on these preliminary questions,
and any further efforts at interpretation would be welcome. I'm not trying
to avoid the hard work of working out the answer, but I'm having trouble
getting off first base with this one.

many thanks,

Joanne

Thread:	Help!
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:54:49 -0800

In a message dated 97-01-27 16:21:36 EST, you write:

<< Subj: Help!
Date: 97-01-27 16:21:36 EST
From: =3Diso-8859-1.Q.Elif_=3DDCnal_=3D3Celif=3D40deu.edu.tr=3D3E=3D@deu=
.edu.tr
Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
=20
Hello,
I am beginner. I need your help. My birthday is 31.01.1973 22.00pm.
I want to create my own chart. But I don't know where can I start at fir=
st.
I was born in Istanbul, TURKEY.
=20
If you show me a way to do it, I will make me happy. Sorry my little
English.
=20
Good Days to Everyone !
Elif =DCNAL
DEU Bilgi Islem Dairesi
elif@deu.edu.tr >>
here is your chart. Use Courier font to view it.
Turkey
31 Jan 1973
10.00 P.M. (-2)
28.58 EAST
41.01 NORTH
06H 39M 25S=20
Regiomontanus
14 LEO 09 CAN 02 GEM
=20
* SN15Can * *
=20
*
=20
* * *
=20
13 VIR * 02 TAU
=20
* * * * *
=20
* PF08Vir * *
=20
* * *SA13Gem* *
=20
* * *
=20
* * ** * ** * *
=20
* *
=20
PL04Lib * *
=20
07 LIB ****************** ******************* 07 ARI
=20
* *
=20
* *
=20
* * ** * ** * *
=20
* * *
=20
UR23Lib * *NE07Sag* * *
=20
* MA22Sag*ME13Aqu *
=20
* * * SU11Aqu * *
=20
02 SCO * VE25Cpr 13 PIS
=20
* * JU24Cpr *
=20
* NN15Cpr
=20
* * MO12Cpr *
=20
02 SAG 09 CPR 14 AQU
=20

Thread:	Subscribe william lilly mailing list
From:	harris@interalpha.co.uk (harris)	Date:	Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:33:00 -0800

Many thanks for the several responses to my question. I will sort out some
examples of void of course moon and make the data available through the
mailing list, hopefully in the next couple of days.

Angela (Reeve) voiced some concerns I subsequently had following Sue Ward's
kind reply to my query.

In the analysis for a ship lost at sea on page 165 CA which Angela cites,
Lilly also indicates that the Moon is void of course because she is not yet
within moiety of orb of opposition of Mercury at 16 degrees plus in Pisces.
So the Moon can be void of course within a sign, presumably, if, having
separated by aspect from one planet, it is not near enough, by joint moiety,
to another to make an applying aspect although it will eventually make such
an applying aspect before it leaves the sign in which it is placed. (The
mind boggles .....) With regard to the Moon in the Lilly case on p165, I
agree with Angela in that, according to my moiety tables, the Moon was
already applying to a trine of Saturn when the chart for the question was
erected. Incidentally, Lilly describes the Moon in that chart as separating
from a square of Saturn and then applying to a trine of it whilst still in
the same sign, if I am not mistaken - but then, again, perhaps I am as, once
more with reference to Angela, the medieval text and diagrams are difficult
to decipher!

All good wishes,





Pat.

Thread:	Subscribe william lilly mailing list
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Wed, 29 Jan 1997 04:04:20 -0800

I agree with Osmar about readings being obscure relating to VOC Moon and I
would be equally interested to follow any discussion about this. My main
problem is the variation of opinion, some say that the moon is VOC if she is
not in applying orb of an aspect; others say she is not VOC if she will aspect
a planet before leaving her current sign, notwithstanding the fact that she is
not in orb at that particular time.

Much seems to depend on how a person interprets Lilly's words, very difficult
in ye olde Englishe. On page 112CA, Lilly states " A planet is void of course
when he is separated from a planet, nor doth forthwith, during his being in
that sign, apply to any other." Admittedly the dictionary definition of
'forthwith' is immediately; but, equally as strongly does the definintion of
'during his being in that sign' imply that as long as application commences
before the planet/Moon leaves the current sign, then it is not VOC.

It is obtuse, admittedly. Another confusing example is on p165CA, where the
chart refers to a shipwreck, Lilly states " ...... and then did not presently
apply to the good aspect of any benevolent planet, but was void of course and
then again continued her application out of the fourth to Saturn...." - when
in fact application is already under way, the Moon being at 10deg44 Virgo, and
Saturn at 15deg5 Taurus, to all intents and purposes the Moon appears to be
applying by trine to Saturn, so why VOC?

A tad confusing!

Regards

Angela

Thread:	Subscribe william lilly mailing list
From:	Osmar Jardim <osjardim@cwbone.bsi.com.br>	Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:30:53 -0800

Could we take a look at the chart Pat is bringing into discussion?
Lilly's readings of voc Moon are somewhat obscure to me, a student in
the path.

Osmar Jardim
Brazil]

*******************************

sueward@easynet.co.uk wrote:
>
> Dear Pat
>
> Nice to have you with us.
>
> >I do have a question. Some charts I have drawn up have had a void of course
> >moon but have been radical according to planetary hour and chart ruler
> >harmony (Lilly p121). Does radicality of chart ruler and hour override void
> >of course moon or not or is it more complicated than this?
>
> I assume that you mean in terms of the chart being unreadable?
>
> Firstly, are you sure that the Moon is void of course? Lilly only calls the
> Moon voc if it is not within the joint moieties of an aspect. In other words
> the Moon is voc if it is not applying to another planet - it doesn't matter
> that there has to be a change of sign before the perfection of that aspect.
>
> If you definitely have a voc Moon and everything else in terms of the
> cautions is ok, then I would judge the chart taking the voc Moon into
> consideration.
>
> Lilly judges charts with the Moon voc and actually provides interpretations
> of this condition in several places in Christian Astrology.
>
> Hope this answers your question
>
> Sincerely
>
> Sue
>
> The Traditional Horary Course
> sueward@easynet.co.uk
> http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Subscribe william lilly mailing list
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:13:38 -0800

Dear Pat

Nice to have you with us.

>I do have a question. Some charts I have drawn up have had a void of course
>moon but have been radical according to planetary hour and chart ruler
>harmony (Lilly p121). Does radicality of chart ruler and hour override void
>of course moon or not or is it more complicated than this?

I assume that you mean in terms of the chart being unreadable?

Firstly, are you sure that the Moon is void of course? Lilly only calls the
Moon voc if it is not within the joint moieties of an aspect. In other words
the Moon is voc if it is not applying to another planet - it doesn't matter
that there has to be a change of sign before the perfection of that aspect.

If you definitely have a voc Moon and everything else in terms of the
cautions is ok, then I would judge the chart taking the voc Moon into
consideration.

Lilly judges charts with the Moon voc and actually provides interpretations
of this condition in several places in Christian Astrology.

Hope this answers your question

Sincerely

Sue

The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Another update
From:	tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma)	Date:	Mon, 27 Jan 1997 05:06:56 -0800

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To subscribe send Email to: listserver@internem.be
with the message: SUBSCRIBE Astrologie-L LastName
FirstName and you will receive all details. This
list has no moderator.

"WILLIAM LILLY" - born July 28, 1996 at 6:22 am PDT, 123W41 38N54,
for traditional astrology. To subscribe send Email
to: william_lilly@halcyon.com with the word:
subscribe as subject and you will receive all
details. Moderator: Carol A. Wiggers.

"FREEDOM" - born October 6, 1996, 3:40pm EDT, South Plainfield,
NJ, USA (74W25 40N35). To subscribe send Email to:
server@cola.castle.net with the message: join freedom
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"ASTROPRO" - born November 9, 1996 21:56:38 Toronto, Canada. (This
list started as "Oracle-astro") To subscribe send
Email to: nitefall@idirect.com with subject:
SUBSCRIBE ASTROPRO and you will receive all details.
Moderator: Brandi Jasmine.

"ASTROLOGIA" - born November 11, 1996 00:01 (12:01 pm) at Guayaquil,
Ecuador (02S10 79W50). This mailinglist is in the
SPANISH language, but other languages are allowed.
To subscribe send Email to: majordomo@telconet.net
with the message: subscribe astrologia and you will
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"EQUINOX" - born December 7, 1996, 02:30 am, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
This mailinglist is in the PORTUGUESE language. To
subscribe send Email to: majordomo@centroin.com.br
with the message: subscribe equinox yourname@address
Moderator: M. V. Wanick VannuZini.

"MSTAR" - born December 20, 1996, 20:21 EST, Mississauga, Ontario,
Canada, for financial astrology. To subscribe send
Email to: nitefall@idirect.com with the subject:
SUBCRIBE MSTAR and you will receive all details.
Moderator: Brandi Jasmine.

"ASTROTECH-L" - born January 14, 1997, 03:09:52 EST, Buffalo, NY,
USA (42N53 78W53) for astrological techniques. To
subscribe send Email to:
listserv@gemini-dream.buf.servtech.com with the
message: subscribe AstroTech-L firstname lastname
and you will receive all details.

"MERCURY" - born January 23, 1997, 09:08:30 am EST, Hurley, N.Y.,
USA for astrological writers. To subscribe send
Email to: listserver@astrologer.com with the
message: subscribe mercury
end
and you will receive all details. Moderator:
Eric Francis. efrancis@mhv.net

EMAIL NEWSLETTERS
=================

"The Navigator" - born April 13, 1995 at 20:49 uur EDT, Rosendale,
NY, USA. (41N51 74W05). Editor: Eric Francis. To
subscribe send a message to: navigator@mhv.net with
the message: subscribe navigator yourname@address

"AAmail" - of the Astrological Association of Great Britain,
started March 12, 1996 at 08:02:55 GMT with the
first bi-monthly Email edition. To subscribe
send Email to: listserver@astrologer.com with the
message: subscribe AAmail
end

"The Connection" - Prodigy's bi-weekly Newsletter, born May 15,
1996, White Plains, N.Y., U.S.A. To subscribe send
Email to: majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com with in
the body of the message: subscribe astrology.

Love,
Tees
---
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---

Thread:	Help!
From:	=iso-8859-1.Q.Elif_=DCnal_=3Celif=40deu.edu.tr=3E=@deu.edu.tr	Date:	Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:42:46 -0800

Hello,
I am beginner. I need your help. My birthday is 31.01.1973 22.00pm.
I want to create my own chart. But I don't know where can I start at first.
I was born in Istanbul, TURKEY.

If you show me a way to do it, I will make me happy. Sorry my little=
English.

Good Days to Everyone !
Elif =DCNAL
DEU Bilgi Islem Dairesi
elif@deu.edu.tr

Thread:	Post to list
From:	allen edwall <76401.275@compuserve.com>	Date:	Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:21:50 -0800

Hello, folks,

Just for your curiosity, here are the stats for the Super Bowl kickoff:


Super Bowl
26 Jan 1997 TZ = 6.0 5.26 P.M. 29.58 NORTH 90.04 WEST

SVP = 05 PIS 18m 00s True Ayanamsa = 23d 48m 59s

HOUSE CUSPS - Placidus
10TH house = 29 ARI 48 11TH house = 03 GEM 58 12TH house = 06 CAN 42
1ST house = 06 LEO 33 2ND house = 00 VIR 06 3RD house = 27 VIR 42
4TH house = 29 LIB 48 5TH house = 03 SAG 58 6TH house = 06 CPR 42
7TH house = 06 AQU 33 8TH house = 00 PIS 06 9TH house = 27 PIS 42

Vertex = 13 SAG 27 Equatorial Ascendant = 25 CAN 44
Co-Ascendant = 21 LEO 36 Polar Ascendant = 12 CPR 34

07 AQU 03m 44s SUN ( 7TH HOUSE) 18 S 30 22 SCO 56 00 N 00
13 VIR 15m 32s MOON ( 2ND HOUSE) 05 N 14 16 ARI 44 01 S 28
12 CPR 42m 20s MERCURY ( 6TH HOUSE) 22 S 06 17 SAG 18 00 N 44
20 CPR 58m 44s VENUS ( 6TH HOUSE) 22 S 07 09 SAG 01 00 S 19
05 LIB 18m 50s MARS ( 3RD HOUSE) 00 N 51 24 PIS 41 03 N 13
01 AQU 15m 54s JUPITER ( 6TH HOUSE) 20 S 14 28 SCO 44 00 S 22
03 ARI 09m 00s SATURN ( 9TH HOUSE) 00 S 50 26 VIR 51 02 S 16
04 AQU 46m 29s URANUS ( 6TH HOUSE) 19 S 37 25 SCO 14 00 S 34
27 CPR 49m 09s NEPTUNE ( 6TH HOUSE) 20 S 11 02 SAG 11 00 N 25
05 SAG 06m 33s PLUTO ( 5TH HOUSE) 08 S 50 24 CPR 53 12 N 30
01 LIB 40m 43s N. NODE ( 3RD HOUSE) 00 S 40 28 PIS 19
12 PIS 44m 32s P. OF F. ( 8TH HOUSE) 06 S 47 17 LIB 15
06 LEO 32m 44s ASC ( 1ST HOUSE) 18 N 38 23 TAU 27
29 ARI 48m 03s MC (10TH HOUSE) 11 N 24 00 VIR 12
Decl. Solstice Pt Lat.


Super Bowl
26 Jan 1997 TZ = 6.0 5.26 P.M. 29.58 NORTH 90.04 WEST

Sun day Saturn hour

STRICTURES and WARNINGS -
SATURN is the ruler of the 7th house.

Planet Sign Exlt. Trip. Term Face Speed Rate
------ ---- ----- ----- ---- ---- ----- ----
SUN SATURN --- SATURN MERCURY VENUS FAST 1d 01m
MOON MERCURY MERCURY VENUS JUPITER VENUS SLOW 11d 49m
MERCURY SATURN MARS VENUS JUPITER MARS FAST 1d 09m
VENUS SATURN MARS VENUS MARS SUN FAST 1d 15m
MARS VENUS SATURN SATURN SATURN MOON SLOW 0d 07m
JUPITER SATURN --- SATURN SATURN VENUS FAST 0d 14m
SATURN MARS SUN SUN JUPITER MARS FAST 0d 05m
PART F. JUPITER VENUS MARS JUPITER JUPITER Strength = 6

Peregrine - SUN MERCURY MARS JUPITER SATURN MOON
Detriment - SUN MARS
Fall - SATURN
Mixed Reception (sign/exaltation) - VENUS-MARS MARS-SATURN SATURN-SUN

Combust - JUPITER
Under Sun's Beam - VENUS
Fateful Degree - JUPITER
Fixed Stars - ASC - N. ASELLI

Planets' Strengths:
SUN: -4 MERCURY: 2 VENUS: 1 MARS: 0 JUPITER: -4 SATURN: 2 MOON: -1


01 LIB 41 MEAN NORTH NODE 29 VIR 57 TRUE NORTH NODE

08 AQU 43 P of ILLNESS 23 CPR 23 P/DEATH-trad.
02 LIB 38 P of FATALITY 08 VIR 40 Point of DEATH

Moon's Aspects -
From - SQUARE PLUTO TRINE MERCURY OPPOSITE PART F.
To - TRINE VENUS TRINE NEPTUNE



And here are the cosmodynes:

Super Bowl
26 Jan 1997 TZ = 6.0 5.26 P.M. 29.58 NORTH 90.04 WEST

Planet Power % Har/Disc Harmony % Discord %
SUN 94.79 15.1 4.16 29.99 11.2 25.83 10.8
ASC 87.10 13.9 -18.41 24.30 9.1 42.71 17.8
URANUS 61.29 9.8 1.98 20.29 7.6 18.31 7.6
JUPITER 59.97 9.6 14.62 33.91 12.7 19.29 8.0
MARS 50.87 8.1 14.74 40.20 15.0 25.47 10.6
MC 49.21 7.8 -29.65 4.56 1.7 34.21 14.3
SATURN 46.87 7.5 4.01 34.78 13.0 30.77 12.8
PLUTO 46.73 7.5 26.68 36.13 13.5 9.45 3.9
NEPTUNE 46.10 7.4 -10.50 6.35 2.4 16.85 7.0
MOON 31.85 5.1 0.43 13.29 5.0 12.86 5.4
MERCURY 27.14 4.3 12.14 12.14 4.5 0.00 0.0
VENUS 25.30 4.0 7.61 11.91 4.4 4.31 1.8

TOTALS 627.22 27.81 267.87 240.06
%
PLUTO 46.73 26.68 30.9 36.13 9.45
MARS 50.87 14.74 17.1 40.20 25.47
JUPITER 59.97 14.62 16.9 33.91 19.29
MERCURY 27.14 12.14 14.1 12.14 0.00
VENUS 25.30 7.61 8.8 11.91 4.31
SUN 94.79 4.16 4.8 29.99 25.83
SATURN 46.87 4.01 4.6 34.78 30.77
URANUS 61.29 1.98 2.3 20.29 18.31
MOON 31.85 0.43 0.5 13.29 12.86
NEPTUNE 46.10 -10.50 17.9 6.35 16.85
ASC 87.10 -18.41 31.4 24.30 42.71
MC 49.21 -29.65 50.6 4.56 34.21

Sign Power % Har/Disc Harmony % Discord %
AQU 243.09 26.4 22.26 97.96 23.6 75.70 22.6
LEO 134.50 14.6 -16.33 39.29 9.5 55.62 16.6
CPR 121.97 13.2 11.26 47.80 11.5 36.55 10.9
ARI 121.51 13.2 -18.27 59.45 14.3 77.71 23.2
SAG 76.71 8.3 33.99 53.08 12.8 19.10 5.7
LIB 63.52 6.9 18.54 46.16 11.1 27.62 8.2
VIR 58.99 6.4 12.58 25.44 6.1 12.86 3.8
PIS 53.03 5.8 2.06 20.13 4.9 18.07 5.4
CAN 15.93 1.7 0.22 6.65 1.6 6.43 1.9
GEM 13.57 1.5 6.07 6.07 1.5 0.00 0.0
SCO 12.20 1.3 5.18 9.54 2.3 4.36 1.3
TAU 6.32 0.7 1.90 2.98 0.7 1.08 0.3

TOTALS 921.35 79.44 414.55 335.11
%
SAG 76.71 33.99 29.8 53.08 19.10
AQU 243.09 22.26 19.5 97.96 75.70
LIB 63.52 18.54 16.3 46.16 27.62
VIR 58.99 12.58 11.0 25.44 12.86
CPR 121.97 11.26 9.9 47.80 36.55
GEM 13.57 6.07 5.3 6.07 0.00
SCO 12.20 5.18 4.5 9.54 4.36
PIS 53.03 2.06 1.8 20.13 18.07
TAU 6.32 1.90 1.7 2.98 1.08
CAN 15.93 0.22 0.2 6.65 6.43
LEO 134.50 -16.33 47.2 39.29 55.62
ARI 121.51 -18.27 52.8 59.45 77.71

House Power % Har/Disc Harmony % Discord %
6 243.23 26.4 27.86 102.00 24.6 74.15 22.1
1 134.50 14.6 -16.33 39.29 9.5 55.62 16.6
7 121.83 13.2 5.66 43.76 10.6 38.10 11.4
10 80.97 8.8 -20.38 27.64 6.7 48.02 14.3
5 76.71 8.3 33.99 53.08 12.8 19.10 5.7
9 73.39 8.0 5.04 44.85 10.8 39.81 11.9
3 64.44 7.0 20.81 46.27 11.2 25.47 7.6
2 45.42 4.9 6.50 19.37 4.7 12.86 3.8
8 26.52 2.9 1.03 10.07 2.4 9.04 2.7
4 24.85 2.7 8.98 15.50 3.7 6.52 1.9
12 15.93 1.7 0.22 6.65 1.6 6.43 1.9
11 13.57 1.5 6.07 6.07 1.5 0.00 0.0

TOTALS 921.35 79.44 414.55 335.11
%
5 76.71 33.99 29.3 53.08 19.10
6 243.23 27.86 24.0 102.00 74.15
3 64.44 20.81 17.9 46.27 25.47
4 24.85 8.98 7.7 15.50 6.52
2 45.42 6.50 5.6 19.37 12.86
11 13.57 6.07 5.2 6.07 0.00
7 121.83 5.66 4.9 43.76 38.10
9 73.39 5.04 4.3 44.85 39.81
8 26.52 1.03 0.9 10.07 9.04
12 15.93 0.22 0.2 6.65 6.43
1 134.50 -16.33 44.5 39.29 55.62
10 80.97 -20.38 55.5 27.64 48.02


Signs Power Har/Disc
Fire 332.72 -0.61
Earth 187.28 25.73
Air 320.18 46.87
Water 81.16 7.45

Cardinal 322.93 11.74
Fixed 396.11 13.01
Common 202.30 54.69


House Power Har/Disc
Private 260.28 11.20
Friendship 466.62 76.48
Community 194.44 -8.24

Vitality 284.60 22.70
Success 369.62 13.98
Relationship 199.84 32.54
Intuition 67.29 10.22

South/North 332.20 / 589.15 -2.36 / 81.81
East/West 354.82 / 566.53 -3.11 / 82.55


Power is listed in upper right section.
Harmony is listed in lower left section.

Sun Mer Ven Mar Jup Sat Ura Nep Plu Moo Asc MC
SUN **** ---- ---- 10.25 9.20 4.09 12.71 5.76 6.05 ---- 27.53 4.74
MER ---- **** 10.79 ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- 9.45 ---- ----
VEN ---- 2.70 **** ---- ---- ---- ---- 1.16 3.13 2.28 ---- 1.18
MAR 7.69 ---- ---- **** 1.95 13.76 5.46 ---- 5.80 ---- 5.77 ----
JUP 4.60 ---- ---- 2.44 **** 3.11 7.58 12.12 2.16 1.99 6.72 8.54
SAT 2.04 ---- ---- -16.16 3.11 **** 3.38 ---- 6.04 ---- 6.60 ----
URA ---- ---- ---- 4.10 3.79 1.69 **** 4.56 5.67 ---- 10.38 5.03
NEP ---- ---- 0.29 ---- 6.06 ---- ---- **** ---- 4.56 3.27 8.02
PLU 6.05 ---- -2.35 4.35 3.23 3.02 5.67 ---- **** 1.85 8.56 ----
MOO ---- 9.45 2.85 ---- -1.00 ---- ---- -4.56 -1.85 **** ---- 3.46
ASC -14.48 ---- ---- 4.33 -3.36 3.30 -10.23 -3.27 8.56 ---- **** 3.26
MC -4.74 ---- -0.88 ---- -4.27 ---- -5.03 -8.02 ---- -3.46 -3.26 ****



Lilly's planetary strengths say New England (Saturn) should have won, but
cosmodynes say the Sun (Green Bay) is stronger - and Green Bay won.

Food for thought.


Allen

Thread:	Update
From:	tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma)	Date:	Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:42:17 -0800

The following international Newsgroups, Mailinglists and Newsletters for
astrology are now available:

NEWSGROUPS
==========

"alt.astrology" - born July 29, 1991, 18:22:38 AEST (08:22:38 GMT),
Sydney, Australia (33S52 151E13)

"de.alt.astrologie" - in the German language, born January 5, 1994,
19:14:54 MET, Tuebingen, Germany (48N31 09E02)

"alt.jyotish" - born Jan. 5, 1995 21:28:33 GMT, Honolulu, Hawaii,
USA (21N19 157W52).

"alt.astrology.asian" - born May 9, 1995 00:08:56 GMT, Anaheim, CA,
USA (33N50 117W54).

"alt.astrology.marketplace" - born June 28, 1996, 09:17:30 pm PDT
(04:17:30 GMT June 29), San Diego, CA, USA
(32N43 117W09).
For astrological ADVERTISING!

"alt.astrology.metapsych" - born November 24, 1996, 02:05 am PST
La Jolla, CA, USA (32N51 117W16)

(The "International Congress Agenda" is posted
to most of these newsgroups on a weekly basis)

MAILINGLISTS
============

"CHAOS" - birthdate April 1, 1995, 12 noon, Bearsville, New York
(74W09, 42N02), U.S.A. To subscribe send Email
to: list-request@badweb.com with the message:
join stars yourname@address Firstname Lastname
and you will receive all details. This list has
no moderator.

"ASTROLA" - born July 21, 1995, 13:40 EST, Toronto, Canada.
(This list started as "Oracle-a") To subscribe
send Email to: nitefall@idirect.com with the
subject: SUBSCRIBE ASTROLA and you will receive
all details. Moderator: Brandi Jasmine.

"PSYCH.ASTROLOGY" - born September 21, 1995, 14:40 BST, London,
England. To subscribe send Email to: listserver@
astrologer.com with the message: subscribe psych
end
and you will receive all details. Moderator: Dermod
Moore.

"FESTIVAL" - born November 29, 1995, 20:54 GMT, Elyria, Ohio, USA
(41N22 82W07). To subscribe send Email to: srozhon@
cyberdrive.net with the message: subscribe festival
john@whatever.net and you will receive all details.
(write your own email address instead of john@what-
ever.net) Moderator: Sandra Rozhon

"ASTROLOGIE-L" - born June 16, 1996 at 14:28 GMT, Brussels,
Belgium. This mailinglist is in the FRENCH language.
To subscribe send Email to: listserver@internem.be
with the message: SUBSCRIBE Astrologie-L LastName
FirstName and you will receive all details. This
list has no moderator.

"WILLIAM LILLY" - born July 28, 1996 at 6:22 am PDT, 123W41 38N54,
for traditional astrology. To subscribe send Email
to: william_lilly@halcyon.com with the word:
subscribe as subject and you will receive all
details. Moderator: Carol A. Wiggers.

"URANIA" - born August 13, 1996 22:35 EDT, New York, NY, USA for
URANIAN astrology (= Hamburger Schule).
DISCONTINUED
============

"FREEDOM" - born October 6, 1996, 3:40pm EDT, South Plainfield,
NJ, USA (74W25 40N35). To subscribe send Email to:
server@cola.castle.net with the message: join freedom
yourname@address Firstname Lastname and you will
receive all details. This list has no moderator.

"ASTROPRO" - born November 9, 1996 21:56:38 Toronto, Canada. (This
list started as "Oracle-astro") To subscribe send
Email to: nitefall@idirect.com with subject:
SUBSCRIBE ASTROPRO and you will receive all details.
Moderator: Brandi Jasmine.

"ASTROLOGIA" - born November 11, 1996 00:01 (12:01 pm) at Guayaquil,
Ecuador (02S10 79W50). This mailinglist is in the
SPANISH language, but other languages are allowed.
To subscribe send Email to: majordomo@telconet.net
with the message: subscribe astrologia and you will
receive all details. Moderator: Carlos Santos Puig.

"EQUINOX" - born December 7, 1996, 02:30 am, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.
This mailinglist is in the PORTUGUESE language. To
subscribe send Email to: majordomo@centroin.com.br
with the message: subscribe equinox yourname@address
Moderator: M. V. Wanick VannuZini.

"MSTAR" - born December 20, 1996, 20:21 EST, Mississauga, Ontario,
Canada, for financial astrology. To subscribe send
Email to: nitefall@idirect.com with the subject:
SUBCRIBE MSTAR and you will receive all details.
Moderator: Brandi Jasmine.

"ASTROTECH-L" - born January 14, 1997, 03:09:52 EST, Buffalo, NY,
USA (42N53 78W53) for astrological techniques. To
subscribe send Email to:
listserv@gemini-dream.buf.servtech.com with the
message: subscribe AstroTech-L firstname lastname
and you will receive all details.

"MERCURY" - born January 23, 1997, 09:08:30 am EST, Hurley, N.Y.,
USA for astrological writers. To subscribe send
Email to: listserver@astrologer.com with the
message: subscribe mercury
end
and you will receive all details. Moderator:
Eric Francis. efrancis@mhv.net

EMAIL NEWSLETTERS
=================

"The Navigator" - born April 13, 1995 at 20:49 uur EDT, Rosendale,
NY, USA. (41N51 74W05). Editor: Eric Francis. To
subscribe send a message to: efrancis@mhv.net with
in the subject line: request. New subscriptions
may take a month to process.

"AAmail" - of the Astrological Association of Great Britain,
started March 12, 1996 at 08:02:55 GMT with the
first bi-monthly Email edition. To subscribe
send Email to: listserver@astrologer.com with the
message: subscribe AAmail
end

"The Connection" - Prodigy's bi-weekly Newsletter, born May 15,
1996, White Plains, N.Y., U.S.A. To subscribe send
Email to: majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com with in
the body of the message: subscribe astrology.

Love,
Tees
---
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---

Thread:	For your information and enrichment
From:	"John Charles Webb, Jr." <johnboy@aloha.net>	Date:	Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:12:50 -0800

Status: U

johnboy@aloha.net
http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy


Dear Mr. Lilly and mailing list members,


The purpose of this communication is to share some valuable information
with you and, hopefully, to receive some enlightened feedback.
On the top of this letter there is a link to my homepage. (I'll make this
as brief as possible) In 1995 the Royal Astronomical Journal published an
article about the Star of Bethlehem and the writer (Michael Molner, Phd.,
Physics Dept., Rutgers University) concluded that the star which guided
the Magi was invisible to all except highly trained astrologers of that
time.
This is very important because it deals with a "cultural artifact" (my
field) and links it to astrology. (The Royal Astronomical Society is
based in England and is a highly visible and highly respected
organization).
Anyhow, I have just concluded my research on the possibility that Molner
was correct regarding the astrological aspects of the star and I have
struck gold!
If anyone within the ranks of your membership would care to review my
findings they may do so by visiting the aloha.net site for which a link is
provided at the top of this letter. Any responses, with the permission of
the writer, shall be placed in my book regarding this extraordinary
discovery.

Thank you for your time and attention,
John Charles Webb, Jr., J.D.
Astro/Archeologist
Maui, Hawaii
January 20, 1997

Thread:	Update
From:	tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma)	Date:	Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:02:49 -0800

The following international Newsgroups, Mailinglists and Newsletters for
astrology are now available:

NEWSGROUPS
==========

"alt.astrology" - born July 29, 1991, 18:22:38 AEST (08:22:38 GMT),
Sydney, Australia (33S52 151E13)

"de.alt.astrologie" - in the German language, born January 5, 1994,
19:14:54 MET, Tuebingen, Germany (48N31 09E02)

"alt.jyotish" - born Jan. 5, 1995 21:28:33 GMT, Honolulu, Hawaii,
USA (21N19 157W52).

"alt.astrology.asian" - born May 9, 1995 00:08:56 GMT, Anaheim, CA,
USA (33N50 117W54).

"alt.astrology.marketplace" - born June 28, 1996, 09:17:30 pm PDT
(04:17:30 GMT June 29), San Diego, CA, USA
(32N43 117W09).
For astrological ADVERTISING!

"alt.astrology.metapsych" - born November 24, 1996, 02:05 am PST
La Jolla, CA, USA (32N51 117W16)

(The "International Congress Agenda" is posted
to most of these newsgroups on a weekly basis)

MAILINGLISTS
============

"CHAOS" - birthdate April 1, 1995, 12 noon, Bearsville, New York
(74W09, 42N02), U.S.A. To subscribe send Email
to: list-request@badweb.com with the message:
join stars yourname@address Firstname Lastname
and you will receive all details. This list has
no moderator.

"ASTROLA" - born July 21, 1995, 13:40 EST, Toronto, Canada.
(This list started as "Oracle-a") To subscribe
send Email to: nitefall@idirect.com with the
subject: SUBSCRIBE ASTROLA and you will receive
all details. Moderator: Brandi Jasmine.

"PSYCH.ASTROLOGY" - born September 21, 1995, 14:40 BST, London,
England. To subscribe send Email to: listserver@
astrologer.com with the message: subscribe psych
end
and you will receive all details. Moderator: Dermod
Moore.

"FESTIVAL" - born November 29, 1995, 20:54 GMT, Elyria, Ohio, USA
(41N22 82W07). To subscribe send Email to: srozhon@
cyberdrive.net with the message: subscribe festival
john@whatever.net and you will receive all details.
(write your own email address instead of john@what-
ever.net) Moderator: Sandra Rozhon

"ASTROLOGIE-L" - born June 16, 1996 at 14:28 GMT, Brussels,
Belgium. This mailinglist is in the FRENCH language.
To subscribe send Email to: listserver@internem.be
with the message: SUBSCRIBE Astrologie-L LastName
FirstName and you will receive all details. This
list has no moderator.

"WILLIAM LILLY" - born July 28, 1996 at 6:22 am PDT, 123W41 38N54,
for traditional astrology. To subscribe send Email
to: william_lilly@halcyon.com with the word:
subscribe as subject and you will receive all
details. Moderator: Carol A. Wiggers.

"URANIA" - born August 13, 1996 22:35 EDT, New York, NY, USA for
URANIAN astrology (= Hamburger Schule).
DISCONTINUED
============

"FREEDOM" - born October 6, 1996, 3:40pm EDT, South Plainfield,
NJ, USA (74W25 40N35). To subscribe send Email to:
server@cola.castle.net with the message: join freedom
yourname@address Firstname Lastname and you will
receive all details. This list has no moderator.

"ASTROPRO" - born November 9, 1996 21:56:38 Toronto, Canada. (This
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Thread:	Update on my father
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:41:30 -0800

Well, I thought I'd let you know what is happening with my father. The
doctor has said he should be home, and has agreed to follow him there with
care. He said I might even be amazed at the increase in clarity and mood
once I take him home. My father unquestioningly wants to bt "out of prison",
and said he ewants to be with me at home "all the time."

Two brothers have taken over his home, and don't want him back. The third
brother, who hasn't seen him for a year, surprisingly is supporting me,
because he thinks it's the right thing to do. (Don't ask why he doesn't
think the right thing would also be for him to see my father...) However,
one of the Hospice people discouraged my brother because he said my father
"is difficult" and she doubts I could handle him. My father is 6 foot four,
and so harder to control than someone 5 foot four. However, as I stay calm
and quiet with him, he's usually easy with me. He gets upset when they yell
at him and talk to him as though he's a baby - ordering him around.

So...there we are. Waiting now for the next steps. Some of you suggested a
decline in his health...t. Saturn is coming to my father's Sun at 10
Aries...but that would be even worse for him in the nursing home.

Thank you to all of you who responded...

Julienne

Thread:	Kidney cancer
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:45:23 -0800

Dear Dorothy, Margaret and Emmy

Just to let you know that my friend had the investigation today to check her
bladder and kidneys. You'll be pleased to know that all is clear. They still
don't know what the problem is, but they have told her not to worry about it
unless there is a change in the condition.

I had passed on all that you said and she was very appreciative. Today she
was keen to let me know as soon as possible so that I could pass on the good
news.

Well done everyone.

Sincerely

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Start of Clinton's second term
From:	Maurice Charvet <charvet@easynet.fr>	Date:	Thu, 16 Jan 1997 23:14:04 -0800

Dear Fellow Listers,

I use to erect the chart when a new term starts for a President. At the
time of the official inception, when a somehow ritual sentence is said
by the president or another official fellow.

I am not sure I will able to do this next week.

Also, may I ask the ones of you who have the opportunity to watch TV or
listen to the radio on next Monday, 20th of January, at about noon or
1pm EST, when Bill Clinton will officially begin his second term.

For your information, Geroge Bush second term started 20 january 1989,
at 17h03 GMT. I wrote then in Maison III, a newsletter sent to 1000
members of a French organization : "Pluton is exactly on the VII
(orb=6') Mars square Sun (orb=12'). The ASC is between Mars in the XII
ruler of VII and XII and Jupiter ruler of XII and VIII. One can think
that Bush's term will certainly contain severe violences and that
the war with known and or known ennemies wil not only be on an economic
or an ideologic level." Do you remember Panama and Noriega at the end of
'89 and something not very peaceful in the Bagdad area ?

Thank you for noting the exact time of Clinton's second term and telling
it in this list.

Bye,

--
Maurice Charvet e-mail: charvet@easynet.fr
--

Thread:	I need your insight
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:24:43 -0800

>At 12:10 PM 1/15/97 -0700, Dorothy and Alexander Kovach wrote:
>>Dear Linda,
>>Thanks for another brilliant chart read. Do you happen to recall the time on
>>the chart you just did for Julienne's question?
>>I try to draw up the chart and read along with you, but cant seem to find
>>the time.

Dear Angela, cannot find the time date or co-ordinates of your read on
Julienne's father, please share them with us!
>>dorothy
>>dstar@mcn.org
>
>Hello Dorothy,
>Nice to hear from you. I didn't think my reply had been posted - it hasn't
>got through to me in Australia yet. It was set for 1/14/1996 1.44pm ( 11
hours east)
>AEDT.
>You'll see that I referred to the part of fatality (Asc + Saturn - Sun) as
>the part of Death. Fatality is actually conj fortuna which I found odd and
>interesting, in the 3rd.( I generally use this in preference to the (Asc +
>8th cusp - Moon - part of death ) I prefer "fatality" because of its Saturn
>connection.
>Warm regards,
>Linda

02 PIS 28 CPR 20 SAG
* JU28Cpr * *
UR04Aqu *
* * *
00 ARI * NE27Cpr 19 SCO
* * * SU23Cpr * *
* *VE04Cpr PL04Sag *
MO01Ari * * *ME03Cpr* *
SA02Ari * * *
SN02Ari * * ** * ** * *
* *
* *
23 ARI ****************** ******************* 23 LIB
* *
* *
* * ** * ** * *
* * * MA03Lib
* *PF01Can* * * NN02Lib
* * *
* * * * *
19 TAU * 00 LIB
* * *
*
* * *
20 GEM 28 CAN 02 VIR
>>At 03:05 PM 1/14/97 +1100, you wrote:
>>>We have Aries rising ruled by Mars - your significator and trad. ruler of
>>>Scorpio which is your Sun sign, so the chart describes you. Today is
Mars-day.
>>>Mars is in the 6th house - a cadent house where things are starting to
>>>'break up' - Mars accelerates the process and could bring on troubled
>>>conditions.
>>>
>>>Your brothers are signified by Mercury ( Gemini on the 3rd house) and
>>>Mercury in the 9th creates a T square with both your father sig. and yours,
>>>so the power struggle is already manifesting.
>>>
>>> Your father's significator is the Moon - Cancer on the 4th house of the
>>>father. The moon and Mars are in opposition - Your father's significator is
>>>in the house of hospitals, conjunct Saturn - hospice, aged care - and
>>>applying to an opposition with Mars. I really do not think it is in his best
>>>interest to move him. You may find he will object to being moved.
>>>
>>>As you see from the chart there is a grand cross when we include fortuna.
>>>However, the part of death is also part of this figure at 2 Cancer 04 in the
>>>fourth house. The outcome for you is the fourth house. Your father's end
>>>of matter 4th is the 7th, ruled by Venus also part of the grand cross.
>>>
>>>I really don't think moving him will do anything other than cause more
>>>family problems to the detriment of your father ( Moon in 12th) and even to
>>>your own well being - Mars in your health 6th. I can understand your
>>>motivation anddesire to have your father near, but it is not in his best
>>>interests.
>>>
>>>The moon's next aspects are conjunction Saturn and square part of death -
>>>this doesn't imply that his health will improve, I'm afraid, in fact there
>>>may be rapid deterioration. Next aspect will be to perfect the opposition to
>>>Mars so take care of your own health and it will at the same time perfect
>>>the square to Mercury and then Venus. This activates the grand cross. You
>>>need to be very careful that the dispute with your brothers does not reach
>>>mammoth proportions.
>>>
>>>You have my sympathy, but your own health shows up in thw chart as in need
>>>of attention, so do spend some time on yourself and let matters take their
>>>course..
>>>
>>>Love,
>>>
>>>Linda
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>My question, at 4:45 pm, ( correct to 3:45 pm) Cedar Grove, New Jersey, (
>>>>40 n 51, 74 w 14), USA, January 12th, 1997, is:
>>>>>
>>>>>Will I succeed in bringing my father home with me (that part is important -
>>>>that I be with him), and is it the best thing for my father?
>>>>>
>>>>>Hope that's not too complicated a question...
>>>>>
>>>>>I have to act quickly, I think, if I am to be able to do this, as I have
>>>>brothers who do not want him home.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>>Julienne
>>>>>
>>>>>Thank you,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>Matrix School of Astrology
>http:/www.quikpage.com/M/mtrxshl
>
>
>
>

Thread:	I need your insight
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:34:43 -0800

Hi Dorothy,

The co-ordinates I used for Julienne's chart are:
DATE: 13 Jan 97 TIME: 08.59am GMT LAT: 52N25 LONG: 01W31.

Regards

Angela

Thread:	A new book
From:	j metz <jmetz@pacbell.net>	Date:	Tue, 14 Jan 1997 15:09:00 -0800

Hi fellow horariers: I studied horary with Brita Okin and she just
published a new book "I Answer Questions the notes and comments of a
Horary Practioner". It is an excellent resource for anyone interested in
horary, whether a beginner or advanced. She covers everything that she
has experienced in her own practice and puts to rest many questions that
come up in terms of "does it work or not." You can get a copy of this
book by ordering it by sending $18 +$2 shipping- to Brita Okin PO Box 33
Centerport, NY 11721. It will be well worth your while! You'll love it!
I just thought I'd pass this on to you. Janis

Thread:	I need your insight
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Tue, 14 Jan 1997 02:17:48 -0800

Status: U

Hi Julienne, what can I say except that all things are in a constant state of
change, the eternal swing of the pendulum. It will change, and very often it
is darkest just before the dawn. Keep you chin up as much as possible. You
seem to be an absolute Trojan in the manner you are trying to support your
father, and if he has said he wishes to come home with you, then I would be
doing exactly the same as you.

Regarding the chart, to be perfectly blunt, yes, I do feel there will be a
deterioration in your father's condition. He is represented by Mercury in the
chart I erected; Mercury has just turned direct, so it seems as tho it could
be fairly positive as far as your father is concerned, a move which will take
him forward. However, Mercury is disposited by Saturn, which could be a bit of
a damper, except that your sig in my chart is Saturn, so, this cld be showing
your efforts to move him, which will be quite an uplift to him from an
emotional or psychological point of view. However, he will need increased
medical care, but you have explained that this will still be the case even at
home, so there is a possibility that the chart is linking with this. I am
trying to glean as much positivity as possible from this chart, and it seems
to be important for you to follow thru with your plans, because even if your
father's health deteriorates, both you and he will have had the positivity of
planning and working towards a better situation.

The main problem starts to show when looking at the turned chart. Your
father's health is then shown by Mars, which is in detriment in Libra.
However, Mercury has just begun to separate from a square to Mars, so, altho
his condition is not at all good, there may, in fact be a slight improvement
in some aspect, even if it is purely his psychological condition. As you so
rightly say, it is a question of making a person's remaining time as happy as
possible, and this, I think, you are doing. This figure '3' does seem to be
quite prevalent, and it may be a good idea for you to keep this in mind in
case it has any relevance as the situation unfolds. Mars is also in the same
degree as the North Node which can indicate a sudden change, this being a
conjunction and Mars not best placed, may not bode very well for your father's
state of being. You cannot do anything for your father's physical health, you
know that, but you can and are making a tremendous difference for him on an
emotional and psychological level - and that has got to be good.

You ask why Jan 22 heralds an improvement. Jupiter rules your house of health,
and is also co-significator for your first house, altho intercepted; it is
also dispositor of the Moon, consequently it obviously is playing quite a part
in your life at the moment as an influencing factor. Jupiter is in Capricorn,
in his sign of fall, at the present time, but on Jan 22 Jupiter moves into
Aquarius, so, although still repressed by Saturn, will be in a slightly better
position. Also, Capricorn is Saturn's nocturnal house, Aquarius is his diurnal
house, which again signifies, (to me anyway) a possible lightening of your
situation; it won't alter significantly, and there will still be quite a lot
of restriction and heavy vibes to work through, but you will have turned the
corner and be able to see the light at the end of tunnel; hopefully, the load
will have lightened a little.

Just as Mars conjuncts the North Node, so Saturn conjuncts the South Node,
this further implying that a change which will be natural and happy for your
father, will place you under much angst. However, it still seems as though
your father's situation has already undergone its change, whatever is going to
affect your father's health has already happened, whereas you are just
becoming aware of it and getting to grips with it. (Actually, this could very
aptly describe your situation rather than linking purely with health issues).

Personally, I would say continue in the way you are going, Saturn is due to
conjunct Part of Fortune in five degrees, out of a cardinal sign in an angle,
so let's hope that a fortunate development occurs soon, within 5 days perhaps.

You ask if you are likely to find another house. Well, 4th house rules end of
matter and also property, and in your chart it is ruled by Mercury. Mercury is
shown 3 degrees away from the 12th cusp, this I would interpret as being
indicative that you will move (I know Lilly supports this, but don't ask me to
quote chapter and verse as I don't have CA to hand); being the 12 house, this
could imply moving to somewhere which will still connect with hospitals and
hospices, (you have already stated this would be an ongoing link). Mercury also
signifying your father further seems to verify your anticipated move.

I know much of my interpretation cannot be justified from a traditional point
of practise, and for that I do apologise to fellow listers, but for whatever
help it may be to you in your current situation, I would say in conlusion that
the auspices look to be a mixture of good and bad. Good for you to follow your
intended plans and pathway; a little worrysome with regard to your father's
state of health; point of death is at 27 degrees Cap, in 12th house and is
conjunct Jupiter and Neptune. You know that your father is terminally ill and
his physical condition will not improve, you can help him emotionally and
psychology and maybe he will be able to pass away in your home surroundings -
I hope so - but you will be guided by the progress of his condition. Continue
in your efforts to find another home for the pair of you, and should his
condition deteriorate to the extent that he cannot take advantage of that,
then rest in the knowledge you gave him the pleasure of being able to look
forward to that possibility. I feel there is a chance that you will succeed in
providing a place for you to look after your father in his remaining time
here, it will not be a miracle cure, you know that, that is not what you're
looking for. I would say, look with positive motivation towards your current
plan of action, and encourage your father to as well. There is a possibility
you will achieve it, and if events should overtake you, you know you will have
given it your best shot.

All the best Julienne, keep in contact, there is much thought support.

Regards

Angela

Thread:	I need your insight - correction
From:	Linda Reid <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:05:33 -0800

At 04:24 PM 1/13/97 +0000, Julienne wrote:
>
>>Hi All,
>
>I am resending this post because I need to make two changes. 1) I have added
>the lat. and long. below as there are two Cedar Groves in New Jersey.

>>As you know, my mother died this week. My father is also in Hospice, which
>means he has been given less than 6 months to live. He has survived so much
>though, that I am not sure whether he really has so little time to live. I
>just don't know.
>>
>>I would like to bring him home, but don't feel very objective about my
>analysis of any charts on this. Would you mind helping?


Hello Julienne,

I have erected the chart for my co-ordinates - Wynyard Tasmania at the time
I understood your question. ( 40S59 145E41) AEDT - 11 hours, Regiomantanus
houses,if you'd like to nut through the chart with me.

We have Aries rising ruled by Mars - your significator and trad. ruler of
Scorpio which is your Sun sign, so the chart describes you. Today is Mars-day.
Mars is in the 6th house - a cadent house where things are starting to
'break up' - Mars accelerates the process and could bring on troubled
conditions.

Your brothers are signified by Mercury ( Gemini on the 3rd house) and
Mercury in the 9th creates a T square with both your father sig. and yours,
so the power struggle is already manifesting.

Your father's significator is the Moon - Cancer on the 4th house of the
father. The moon and Mars are in opposition - Your father's significator is
in the house of hospitals, conjunct Saturn - hospice, aged care - and
applying to an opposition with Mars. I really do not think it is in his best
interest to move him. You may find he will object to being moved.

As you see from the chart there is a grand cross when we include fortuna.
However, the part of death is also part of this figure at 2 Cancer 04 in the
fourth house. The outcome for you is the fourth house. Your father's end
of matter 4th is the 7th, ruled by Venus also part of the grand cross.

I really don't think moving him will do anything other than cause more
family problems to the detriment of your father ( Moon in 12th) and even to
your own well being - Mars in your health 6th. I can understand your
motivation anddesire to have your father near, but it is not in his best
interests.

The moon's next aspects are conjunction Saturn and square part of death -
this doesn't imply that his health will improve, I'm afraid, in fact there
may be rapid deterioration. Next aspect will be to perfect the opposition to
Mars so take care of your own health and it will at the same time perfect
the square to Mercury and then Venus. This activates the grand cross. You
need to be very careful that the dispute with your brothers does not reach
mammoth proportions.

You have my sympathy, but your own health shows up in thw chart as in need
of attention, so do spend some time on yourself and let matters take their
course..

Love,

Linda







>>
>>My question, at 4:45 pm, ( correct to 3:45 pm) Cedar Grove, New Jersey, (
>40 n 51, 74 w 14), USA, January 12th, 1997, is:
>>
>>Will I succeed in bringing my father home with me (that part is important -
>that I be with him), and is it the best thing for my father?
>>
>>Hope that's not too complicated a question...
>>
>>I have to act quickly, I think, if I am to be able to do this, as I have
>brothers who do not want him home.
>>
>>Thank you,
>>
>>Julienne
>>
>>Thank you,
>>
>
>
>
>
>

Thread:	I need your insight
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:32:09 -0800

At 10:00 AM 1/13/97 +0000, Angela wrote:
>Hi Julienne, I have erected a chart, not for your co-ordinates, but for the

>time I understood your dilemma as it does make more sense to me that a
chart
>should be for when the astrologer understands the subject matter. Here goes

>....

>
>You are obviously going through a very difficult time (Saturn in Aries),

Both my parents are/were Aries...

and
>Saturn in the first house indicates that there could be obstruction to your

>proposed course of action; on the other hand, there are fixed signs on all

>four angles which show that something is already underway and is unlikely
to
>be stopped. Saturn (your sig) does not make any aspect, but the Moon is

>applying to sextile Neptune and is moving towards conjunction Saturn, plus

>being in an intercepted sign, I feel indicates a covert plot afoot,
however, I
>think there are developments which will alter the anticipated situation.


There is indeed a covert pan afoot...and I only became aware of the depth of
it this morning. The plan seems to be to make it impossible for my father to
live in the house, by removing everything in it, and making it unavailable
for him in other ways as well. Apparently everything my father owned was
signed over to my mother some time back so that my father owns nothing, and
my brothers are taking and running.

I only realized all this last night and this morning, and so now am in touch
with lawyers to try to work out another plan, i.e., bring him home to a new
home of my own. I am not yet sure whether that plan will be possible,
however, as I am not sure I can get a new home myself quickly. I have
already started the ball rolling...When I asked the question last night, I
was not aware that my brothers intended to keep him out, and had actively
started working to that end.

If this makes you as sick as it makes me, just pretend it is one of my
client's tales. :)

>Your father's sig is Mercury, and there does appear to be a significant
change
>taking place for him within a '3', indeed, even as we speak, I would say
his
>circumstances have altered, this could be indicative of his state of
health,
>or maybe you have decided to act quickly due to anticipated opposition.

Exactly what I am doing.

I have been worried about his health for the last few days, with little
response from the nursing home. He doesn't want to eat, which is a sure sign
with my father as he always has a big appetite. He also seems depressed, and
I feel that he is aware that Mummy has died, even though he hasn't been told.

>In very brief conclusion, I would say that your father's condition will

>dictate how events should best proceed, if his health allows you to move
him,
>then I would say that is what you will do, but if his condition
deteriorates
>then you will know it is best for you to give him all your love and support

>whilst remaining in the hospice.

Hospice is an organization which gives all sorts of aid to people who have
six months or less to live, but the help is given whether in the nursing
home or at home. So, if I take him home to his home, or to a new one of my
own, or leave him in the nursing home, he would still have Hospice care.

There is a speedy change shown and one which
>is already in progress; this will provide the signpost for you. At the
present
>moment a move does not look to be particularly adviseable, unless the chart
is
>saying you have already accomplished it (Mercury stationary). Unless you
have
>already taken matters into your own hands, I would say tarry a little
while,
>let the dust settle in order to see clearer the best way forward; and at
the
>end of the day, maybe it is up to your father to say where he would prefer
to
>be. Is he able to make that decision? Today (13th) could be decisive as

>Mercury turns direct.

He has said repeatedly that he wants to come home with me, and that he does
not want to be in the nursing home. He has been miserable there since day
one. I think he should be allowed to die in his own home - he, after all,
provided all the family with beautiful homes all our lives. He should be
allowed to die with those he loves, as did my mother.

Are you saying that you feel my father might die now, or be too ill to leave
the nursing home? And that the covert plan is to make sure he doesn't come
to his own home?
This is how I interpret your words.

We had always felt that my mother would die first, and that my father, who
has always absolutely adored her, would die of grief very quickly after, not
wanting to live without her. However, as he hasn't been told, and has some
awareness and memory problems because he was hit in his car by a drunk
driver - I was hoping that not being aware of her death might help him live
longer. The last time she was able to visit him was December 17th...so he
may be aware that it's been a while since he saw her - the longest
separation in many years. He and I are very close now, although my brothers
pay him no attention, and so I was hoping that my presence could make him
happy through his last times. Well...I hope he is able to do what he wants
to do... By the way, I am not trying to keep him alive beyond when he wants
to live - I was able to talk to him about that before.

>All the best, Julienne, you are going through a difficult time, but things

>should lighten a little from around the 22 Jan.


Does there seem to be any possibility of a house of my own to take him to?

Why the 22nd of January?

Thank you so much, Angela, and I am sorry I messed up the data, etc., so
many times - but the stress is off the wall at the moment. I feel I have to
ask so quickly, or else my brothers will have cut off all avenues for Daddy.
They had started throwing everything out of the house within 24 hours of my
mother's death, although I didn't know that until last night.

Thank you...

Love,

Julienne

Thread:	I need your insight - correction
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:30:15 -0800

>Hi All,

I am resending this post because I need to make two changes. 1) I have added
the lat. and long. below as there are two Cedar Groves in New Jersey.

Second, I wrote 4:45. but meant 3:45 p.m....

I'm sorry...but my brain is not functioning at its best now - .

>As you know, my mother died this week. My father is also in Hospice, which
means he has been given less than 6 months to live. He has survived so much
though, that I am not sure whether he really has so little time to live. I
just don't know.
>
>I would like to bring him home, but don't feel very objective about my
analysis of any charts on this. Would you mind helping?
>
>My question, at 4:45 pm, ( correct to 3:45 pm) Cedar Grove, New Jersey, (
40 n 51, 74 w 14), USA, January 12th, 1997, is:
>
>Will I succeed in bringing my father home with me (that part is important -
that I be with him), and is it the best thing for my father?
>
>Hope that's not too complicated a question...
>
>I have to act quickly, I think, if I am to be able to do this, as I have
brothers who do not want him home.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Julienne
>
>Thank you,
>

Thread:	I need your insight
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:14:15 -0800

At 05:29 AM 1/13/97 +0000, Hideaki wrote:
>Dear Julienne,
>
>> My question, at 4:45 pm, Cedar Grove, New Jersey, USA, January 12th,
1997, is:
>
> I found 2 Cedar Grove in NJ. Would you tell me which...?

Sorry, this is it:

Cedar Grove, NJ (US): 40n51, 74w14, New Jersey (US)

Julienne

Thread:	I need your insight
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Mon, 13 Jan 1997 02:01:08 -0800

Hi Julienne, I have erected a chart, not for your co-ordinates, but for the
time I understood your dilemma as it does make more sense to me that a chart
should be for when the astrologer understands the subject matter. Here goes
....

You are obviously going through a very difficult time (Saturn in Aries), and
Saturn in the first house indicates that there could be obstruction to your
proposed course of action; on the other hand, there are fixed signs on all
four angles which show that something is already underway and is unlikely to
be stopped. Saturn (your sig) does not make any aspect, but the Moon is
applying to sextile Neptune and is moving towards conjunction Saturn, plus
being in an intercepted sign, I feel indicates a covert plot afoot, however, I
think there are developments which will alter the anticipated situation.

Your father's sig is Mercury, and there does appear to be a significant change
taking place for him within a '3', indeed, even as we speak, I would say his
circumstances have altered, this could be indicative of his state of health,
or maybe you have decided to act quickly due to anticipated opposition.

In very brief conclusion, I would say that your father's condition will
dictate how events should best proceed, if his health allows you to move him,
then I would say that is what you will do, but if his condition deteriorates
then you will know it is best for you to give him all your love and support
whilst remaining in the hospice. There is a speedy change shown and one which
is already in progress; this will provide the signpost for you. At the present
moment a move does not look to be particularly adviseable, unless the chart is
saying you have already accomplished it (Mercury stationary). Unless you have
already taken matters into your own hands, I would say tarry a little while,
let the dust settle in order to see clearer the best way forward; and at the
end of the day, maybe it is up to your father to say where he would prefer to
be. Is he able to make that decision? Today (13th) could be decisive as
Mercury turns direct.

All the best, Julienne, you are going through a difficult time, but things
should lighten a little from around the 22 Jan.

Regards

Angela

Thread:	I need your insight -PS
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:07:53 -0800

Just in case you need them, the following are the data for my father, and
for me.

Daddy: April 1, 1912, 6:38 am, Sydney, Australia.
Me: November 19, 1940, 8:55 pm, Sydney, Australia.

Thanks

J

>Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:51:36
>To: Lilly List
>From: Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: I need your insight
>
>Hi All,
>
>As you know, my mother died this week. My father is also in Hospice, which
means he has been given less than 6 months to live. He has survived so much
though, that I am not sure whether he really has so little time to live. I
just don't know.
>
>I would like to bring him home, but don't feel very objective about my
analysis of any charts on this. Would you mind helping?
>
>My question, at 4:45 pm, Cedar Grove, New Jersey, USA, January 12th, 1997, is:
>
>Will I succeed in bringing my father home with me (that part is important -
that I be with him), and is it the best thing for my father?
>
>Hope that's not too complicated a question...
>
>I have to act quickly, I think, if I am to be able to do this, as I have
brothers who do not want him home.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Julienne
>
>Thank you,
>

Thread:	I need your insight
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:07:51 -0800

Hi All,

As you know, my mother died this week. My father is also in Hospice, which
means he has been given less than 6 months to live. He has survived so much
though, that I am not sure whether he really has so little time to live. I
just don't know.

I would like to bring him home, but don't feel very objective about my
analysis of any charts on this. Would you mind helping?

My question, at 4:45 pm, Cedar Grove, New Jersey, USA, January 12th, 1997, is:

Will I succeed in bringing my father home with me (that part is important -
that I be with him), and is it the best thing for my father?

Hope that's not too complicated a question...

I have to act quickly, I think, if I am to be able to do this, as I have
brothers who do not want him home.

Thank you,

Julienne

Thank you,

Thread:	(Fwd) Re: Critical Degrees - What are they really?
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Sat, 11 Jan 1997 17:58:31 -0800

In a message dated 97-01-11 20:11:12 EST, you write:

<< Subj: Re: (Fwd) Re: Critical Degrees - What are they really?
Date: 97-01-11 20:11:12 EST
From: zjulienne@worldnet.att.net (Julienne)
To: TonyLouis@aol.com

At 10:38 PM 1/11/97 +0000, Patricia wrote:
> Dealing more with my client's life issues I rarely consider
forward
> planning regarding death - except when for some reason or another it is
> blatantly obvious and fortunately, for ease of my practice, this situation
> is very rare. Therefore, I would appreciate knowing more about the PART
OF
> DEATH vis a vis the POINT OF DEATH. Perhaps someone would kindly let me
> know what planets and points are involved in the calculations as well as
the
> essential difference between the Part and the Points.

If any of you would like to look at it, I have my mother's birth and death
data.

Julienne




----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
From zjulienne@worldnet.att.net Sat Jan 11 20:10:39 1997
Return-Path: zjulienne@worldnet.att.net

Thread:	(Fwd) Re: Critical Degrees - What are they really?
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:

In a message dated 97-01-11 14:52:43 EST, you write:

<< Subj: Re: (Fwd) Re: Critical Degrees - What are they really?
Date: 97-01-11 14:52:43 EST
From: pathuk@itl.net (Patricia Hamilton)
To: TonyLouis@aol.com

>Tony and other Listers

Tony wrote :- I generally take the Part and the Point of Death to
have a similar meaning. My own experience is that the Point of death
(Watters/Emerson) is more often
>accurate and informative.

Dealing more with my client's life issues I rarely consider forward
planning regarding death - except when for some reason or another it is
blatantly obvious and fortunately, for ease of my practice, this situation
is very rare. Therefore, I would appreciate knowing more about the PART OF
DEATH vis a vis the POINT OF DEATH. Perhaps someone would kindly let me
know what planets and points are involved in the calculations as well as the
essential difference between the Part and the Points.

Many thanks in anticipation of any replies.

Patricia Hamilton
>
>

>>

Thread:	EMERGENCY HELP with HORARY QUESTION.{{fr: GINGER K.}}
From:	GKenni7777@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 17:28:47 -0800

Subj: EMERGENCY HELP with HORARY QUESTION.{{fr: GINGER K.}}
Date: 97-01-10 19:13:44 EST
From: GKenni7777@aol.com & Astrolger7@aol.com
To: William_Lilly@halcyon.com
CC: gpena@sauce.cmact.com

TO: William Lilly List & Gonzo {Dr. Gonzalo Pena Tamez)


We just became aware that a money order for $895.oo <unfilled out> was
last seen on my computer table top on my left side along with some one
dollar bills, a five dollar bill and a bunch of change. The end of my
Large Kitchen by patio doors is where my computer , files and etc. is kept.
This was on the late afternoon of January 8th before I left to go play bingo.
I remember picking up the money and puting it in my purse, however I don't
remember picking up or moving the money order. Chet (husband)bought it and
layed it by the computer with money, and it is the money order for out rent.
I thought he picked it up and mailed the rent. He didn't, however, before I
left for bingo, my grandson, Shane came over at my request to help watch
Wynnona some while Chet was out side working on his car . Shane has stolen to
our knowledge over $500.oo worth of stuff from out garage back when he was
living here. I do not trust him as far as I can throw him. Either that
(Shane takeing it), or Wynnona{2 & 1\2 old} picking it up & misplaceing it ,
and\or me possibly misplaceing it while in a hurry are the thoughts as to
where it could be. Weve searched high and low over this house, and my purse,
and it's seams to have disappeared. Our landlord is calling and having a fit.
It was around 3:30 pm PST here in Lemon Grove, Calif when I thought to write
you and the William Lilly List to ask for Horary Astrology help. {Cordances
are 32n44.30 and 117w04 ?} please would you do a horary question for me as
soon as possible, and get back to me asap.
My grandson, (7th)left the next morning for Bakersfield, Ca. to work on a
temporary job. So we have no way of approaching him at this time. Besides, he
lies real well, and wouldn' tell us if the truth hit him in the face.

Thanks a million,

Love GINGER K.
Astrolger7@aol.com & GKenni7777@aol.com
((COPIES To William Lilly List, and Dr. Gonzalo Pena Tamez}}

Thread:	EMERGENCY HELP with HORARY QUESTION.{{fr: GINGER K.}}
From:	Astrolger7@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:35:18 -0800

TO: William Lilly List & Gonzo {Dr. Gonzalo Pena Tamez)


We just became aware that a money order for $895.oo <unfilled out> was
last seen on my computer table top on my left side along with some one
dollar bills, a five dollar bill and a bunch of change. The end of my
Large Kitchen by patio doors is where my computer , files and etc. is kept.
This was on the late afternoon of January 8th before I left to go play bingo.
I remember picking up the money and puting it in my purse, however I don't
remember picking up or moving the money order. Chet (husband)bought it and
layed it by the computer with money, and it is the money order for out rent.
I thought he picked it up and mailed the rent. He didn't, however, before I
left for bingo, my grandson, Shane came over at my request to help watch
Wynnona some while Chet was out side working on his car . Shane has stolen to
our knowledge over $500.oo worth of stuff from out garage back when he was
living here. I do not trust him as far as I can throw him. Either that
(Shane takeing it), or Wynnona{2 & 1\2 old} picking it up & misplaceing it ,
and\or me possibly misplaceing it while in a hurry are the thoughts as to
where it could be. Weve searched high and low over this house, and my purse,
and it's seams to have disappeared. Our landlord is calling and having a fit.
It was around 3:30 pm PST here in Lemon Grove, Calif when I thought to write
you and the William Lilly List to ask for Horary Astrology help. {Cordances
are 32n44.30 and 117w04 ?} please would you do a horary question for me as
soon as possible, and get back to me asap.
My grandson, (7th)left the next morning for Bakersfield, Ca. to work on a
temporary job. So we have no way of approaching him at this time. Besides, he
lies real well, and wouldn' tell us if the truth hit him in the face.

Thanks a million,

Love GINGER K.
Astrolger7@aol.com
((COPIES To William Lilly List, and Dr. Gonzalo Pena Tamez}}

Thread:	Signoff
From:	Pmswanson@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:27:45 -0800

signoff Paula Swanson

Thread:	Question
From:	CURT MANWARING <chiron@servtech.com>	Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 19:12:42 -0800

Hi,

I received a notice that my lease will expire on Mar 31st and asked this
question which has been on my mind for about 6 months or so: Should I stay
and renew my lease or should I move? If I stay should I renew the lease for
1 or 2 years? I asked it at 7:33 pm on 1/9/97 in Syracuse, NY. I have a
progressed new moon now as of Jan 3 and have the suspicion that something
new might come along and I might not want to be tied down.

The Moon applies to both malefics but separates from Jupiter in the previous
sign. It falls short of making a sextile to Venus in Sag as Venus moves
into Cap before the Moon can reach the late degrees of Aquarius. Neither
the place I am (4th) or the place I may go (7th) looks very good which
puzzles me because my current location is quite pleasant. The Moon falls
close to Uranus and both are near my 4th natal cusp (unexpected move) and
conj natal Jupiter at 00 Aq 48. Very unexpected as Moon is lord of the
12th. As this chart is nocturnal Mars is in sect and Saturn is not -
another indication I should stay where I am. I would appreciate any comments.

Thank you,
Curt Manwaring

Thread:	Attempt at Non-Stop Round the World Balloon Trip
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:39:33 -0800

>Update on the co-ordinates of the descent data - near Bechar in the
Algerian Desert - 031N38, 002W18.
Regards, Jonathon
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Thread:	Students' Corner - Critical Degrees (H)
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:39:35 -0800

I look forward to more offerings from this particular ascended master, he
seems to show great promise.

Thanks,
Jonathon>

Hi All,
>
>I don't know if a little humour is out of place...but this was something I
>(or my alter, Professora Prophecia) wrote on "Critical Degrees" a few weeks
>ago for the CHAO*S List. It was, as I am sure you will immediately be able
>to ascertain, channeled directly from Bill Lilly. :)
>
>Julienne
>_________________________________________________________________
>
>Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 06:45:55 +0000
>There has been some talk lately about critical degrees. And if there hasn't
>been, there ought to have been.
>
>A critical degree is anywhere between 0 - 30 degrees of Virgo.
>
>Not so well-known is that there is also a "critical planet"...and this is,
>of course, Saturn, as is well-known to anyone who has experienced Saturn.
>
>We then have "critical aspects: - and these are, (I bet you're ahead of me),
>any aspect between Saturn and any other planet, or: between Saturn and any
>planet placed in 0-30 degrees of Virgo.
>
>An in-depth exposition of this subject will appear in the next edition of
>_The Pseudo-Science Monthly_, which appears every month...or so. Or not.
>
>Professora Prophecia, "PP"
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thread:	Students' Corner - Critical Degrees (H)
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:11:44 -0800

Hi All,

I don't know if a little humour is out of place...but this was something I
(or my alter, Professora Prophecia) wrote on "Critical Degrees" a few weeks
ago for the CHAO*S List. It was, as I am sure you will immediately be able
to ascertain, channeled directly from Bill Lilly. :)

Julienne
_________________________________________________________________

Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 06:45:55 +0000
There has been some talk lately about critical degrees. And if there hasn't
been, there ought to have been.

A critical degree is anywhere between 0 - 30 degrees of Virgo.

Not so well-known is that there is also a "critical planet"...and this is,
of course, Saturn, as is well-known to anyone who has experienced Saturn.

We then have "critical aspects: - and these are, (I bet you're ahead of me),
any aspect between Saturn and any other planet, or: between Saturn and any
planet placed in 0-30 degrees of Virgo.

An in-depth exposition of this subject will appear in the next edition of
_The Pseudo-Science Monthly_, which appears every month...or so. Or not.

Professora Prophecia, "PP"

Thread:	(Fwd) Re: Critical Degrees - What are they really?
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:07:35 -0800

I generally take the Part and the Point of Death to have a similar meaning.
My own experience is that the Point of death (Watters/Emerson) is more often
accurate and informative.

Tony

Thread:	My Mother
From:	Linda Reid <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:58:21 -0800

At 03:53 PM 1/7/97 +0000, Julienne wrote:
>
>Hi All,
>
>As a number of you on this List knew my mother, Sheila Mullette, I am just
>writing to let you know that she died this morning, around one a.m., after a
>long and courageous thirty year fight against recurring lung cancer.
>
Dear Julienne,

You have my heartfelt sympathy on losing your mother. I am sure she
appreciated the love and care you gave her. Now she is at peace, ready to be
born again. You were able to be with her and ease her passing, and in
leaving children behind some part of her lives on in you and your children.
Take care of yourself.

Love,

Linda

Thread:	My Mother
From:	Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@compuserve.com>	Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 15:39:54 -0800

Dear Julienne

Just read your post about your mother and wanted to offer my support. I
hope you are OK. I've been intended to write all over Xmas but always some
thing came up to prevent me. Maybe it was a way to stop me being too
flippant until all this was over. I read your message on the William Lilly
list which was really nice but I guess you can tell how few emails I'm
sending at the moment by my lack of imput there. With the kids off school
its been so difficult to find time to keep in touch.

I haven't had much correspondence with Ken lately but from what I can
gather he's having a pretty rough time at the moment too.

I hope 1997 turns out to be a good year for you once you've got over all
this.

Keep your spirits up.

Love and best wishes,
Deb

Thread:	Another update!
From:	tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma)	Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:44:16 -0800

The following international Newsgroups, Mailinglists and Newsletters for
astrology are now available:

NEWSGROUPS
==========

"alt.astrology" - born July 29, 1991, 18:22:38 AEST (08:22:38 GMT),
Sydney, Australia (33S52 151E13)

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19:14:54 MET, Tuebingen, Germany (48N31 09E02)

"alt.jyotish" - born Jan. 5, 1995 21:28:33 GMT, Honolulu, Hawaii,
USA (21N19 157W52).

"alt.astrology.asian" - born May 9, 1995 00:08:56 GMT, Anaheim, CA,
USA (33N50 117W54).

"alt.astrology.marketplace" - born June 28, 1996, 09:17:30 pm PDT
(04:17:30 GMT June 29), San Diego, CA, USA
(32N43 117W09).
For astrological ADVERTISING!

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La Jolla, CA, USA (32N51 117W16)

(The "International Congress Agenda" is posted
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MAILINGLISTS
============

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Love,
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---
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---

Thread:	Attempt at Non-Stop Round the World Balloon Trip
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:46:03 -0800

Three men in a balloon - Richard Branson, entrepreneur of Virgin
Music/Airways etc plus two colleagues - set off in their attempt to fly
non-stop round the world in a hot air balloon.
Lift off was at 11.19 a.m. GMT, 7th. January 1997 from Marrakech, 008W00, 31N09.

Readers may like to look at the chart and form their own conclusions.
Thelatest news of the trip - for those who don't already know - is lower
down on this page.



























The trip finished after only nineteen hours - 7.21 GMT 8th. January 1997
somwewhere in Algeria - I don't have exact co-ordinates yet. Cause of
failure as yet unknown but the balloon was plummeting at 40 ft per second
before the actions of the substitute crew member saved them. The original
crew member was sidelined less than twenty-four hours before take off due to
a possibility of pneumonia. There seem to be some hands of destiny hovering
over the whole incident.

Thread:	(Fwd) Re: Critical Degrees - What are they really?
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Wed, 8 Jan 1997 07:21:00 -0800

To Tony and Dave:

Thanks very much for replying to my query. However, I think the title of my
posting may have been a tad misleading; unfortunately I have to use an old
posting to the list in order to get thru as my system does not recognise the Co
mpuserve underscore in the List's address.

My actual difficulty was not so much the calculation, or the position of
critical degrees; it was how is the Part of Death used, as against the Point
of Death? Does one delineate one thing, and the other something else? One
presumably looks at the Part of Death for any relative details of that subject,
how then does the Point of Death differ, what does the Point portray that the
Part doesn't?

Thanks again

Angela

Thread:	My Mother
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Tue, 7 Jan 1997 22:48:40 -0800

Hi All,

As a number of you on this List knew my mother, Sheila Mullette, I am just
writing to let you know that she died this morning, around one a.m., after a
long and courageous thirty year fight against recurring lung cancer.

She died peacefully, just after my brother had gone to check in on her for
the night. She spoke to him, and when he came up three quarters of an hour
later, it was clear she had died soon after he had left her earlier.

It was my son Dhanny's twenty first birthday on Sunday, and I had felt she
would hang on for that. Sure enough, she died an hour after his birthday.

My mother was also an astrologer, and was very active in ISAR from the
beginning on the founding Board of Directors, holding a number of positions
through the years.

Am not able to write more now, but just wanted to let you know.

Love,

Julienne

Thread:	(Fwd) Re: Critical Degrees - What are they really?
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Tue, 7 Jan 1997 05:47:42 -0800

In a message dated 97-01-07 04:26:17 EST, you write:

<<
Could someone please delineate what the difference is between Part of Death
and
Point of Death?


Thanks

Angela


>>
The DEATH POINT (POINT OF DEATH) = MARS + SATURN - MC.

Barbara Watters attributed this to Charles Emerson. It is extremely helpful
in questions about death.

The modern Part of Death is ASC + 8th CUSP - MOON.

The medieval Part of Death is 8th CUSP + SATURN - MOON.

Clearly, these two latter parts will depend on which house system one uses.
Bob Zoller wrote a scholarly treatise on the parts. They come to us from
ancient Egypt by way of the Arabs who further developed them (hence "Arabic
parts").
Those parts that use house systems are suspect because the house systems in
current use (including Regiomontanus) did not exist at the time the parts
were developed. Most likely, the Arabs used an equal house or a Porphyry
house system (or one of the other very early house divisions).

Tony

Thread:	Update
From:	tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma)	Date:	Tue, 7 Jan 1997 09:05:32 -0800

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Thread:	Horary chart form
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Mon, 6 Jan 1997 15:59:23 -0800

Maurice,

Great to see you posting on this list. Long time, no hear.

Tony
(Anthony Louis)

Thread:	Time of receiving a question
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Tue, 7 Jan 1997 01:58:44 -0800

>Dear Hideaki,
>
Lots of confusion and sand now thrown in air. Moral of story, see my
original reservation re. trying to judge charts with Moon in late degrees.

>You wrote:
>> Perhaps you will come to the same conclusion no
>> matter which chart you do, but the former chart describes the
>> situation rather than the latter one -
>
> But, reading your delineation, I realized both charts did describe the
> situation! Now I must correct myself; the time stamp of the questioner's
> message and the host computer's longitude and latitude are ALSO
> usable.

Beware! I don't think this debate has yet run its course. Sue Ward's recent
posting on this subject supports my view expressed earlier that a chart
which has already been examined by an astrologer posting to the net is
different from a "virgin question." But there's still the point that Linda
Reid raised regarding the chart which was readable and correct from a very
clearly expressed question some hours before the astrologer understood it.
>
>> and I look
>> forward to hearing what really happened.
>
> Nothing happened! The querent and I have a mutual friend, and I asked
> the friend if there was any change of situation, last September or
> October, the friend said, "they still live together and she hasn't
> found a new job."
>
So void of course moon has its way and nothing came of the question.

>> Moon and Mars in mutual reception suggests that the thing desired will come
>> about easily and to the content of both parties - p. 112 CA
>
> Yes, both the querent and her husband had agreed to divorce, and the
> querent's co-significator the Moon and the natural significator of men
> the Sun were also separating from sextile.
>
> They decided that the querent would live with two children, then she
> had to find a new job to earn living expenses. (As you say, both charts
> indicate the querent's affection towards the children.)
>
> But, in both charts, the ruler of the tenth has no connection with
> the querent's significator, and the ruler of the second is in mutual
> reception with her husband's significator. The latter signification
> means, I think, the querent depends on her husband's income.

I would agree with this.
>
> Well, in the former chart the ascandant's ruler Venus and the hour
> ruler the Moon are of the same triplicity, and the ascendant is near
> to her natal Jupiter(the ruler of the seventh in her birth chart)...
> Thank you for the delineation, Jonathon.
>
>You're very welcome but I think the real message is at the top of this posting!

All the best,
Jonathon
>
>
>

Thread:	Critical Degrees - What are they really?
From:	"Angela Reeve UK(UTC 00:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com>	Date:	Mon, 6 Jan 1997 03:27:36 -0800

Could someone please delineate what the difference is between Part of Death and
Point of Death?

Thanks
Angela

Thread:	Moon on Spica question
From:	gpena@mail.cmact.com (DR GONZALO PENA TAMEZ)	Date:	Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:47:20 -0800

>Dear Gonzalo
>
>My query refers to another thread that is running on the list at the moment,
>that of the moment of the question. I see that you have actually set this
>chart up and I assume you have used 2 Jan 1997, 7.06pm CST? Is this the time
>that the call came in or the time you understood the question? It might be
>unimportant if there were only a few minutes difference between the two, but
>if the conversation continued for a long time, then I wonder if the time is
>good?

That is the time when I understood the question: the phone rang when I was
sitting at the table with my wife and 2 other advanced students of
astrology....we were checking out the Lunation charts for the year now
starting. My wife answered the phone and we were overhearing and soon
realized it was a horary question and that the subject was Is he dead or
what? and I guess you can say we all understood the question as my wife said
"O.K., let's see, it is now 07:06 p.m. and I understand you want to know
whether he is dead or what has come to happen to him, right?" and she wrote
down the time then. My wife is an astrologer too, you can check her web site
at http://www.cmact.com/gpena/ At that point I wanted the details myself,
so I asked my wife to pass the the phone, which she did, so our client
repeted the story to me, without adding anything I hadn't figured out from
just overhearing her conversation with my wife minutes before. The phone
conversation should have lasted some 15 minutes, but the time my wife wrote
down, 07:06 p.m. CST is the one I used to cast the horary chart. I used the
latitude of Saltillo, Coahuila (100W59'22'', 25N26'37'') because that's
where Martha, our client asking the question, is located; yet I also casted
the chart for my own coordinates here in Monterrey, N.L., Mexico
(100W18'26'', 25N40'11'') just to take a look. Since both cities are very
close: 2 hours by superhighway, the difference amounts to about one degree
in the Ascendant's longitude. So anyway the Ascendant is in Cancer, with
the transiting Jupiter/Neptune smack on the Descendant at the time the
question was posed. Although Martha is bringing forth the question on behalf
of her sister in Laredo, I didn't used Laredo's coordinates because I felt
Martha has great curiosity in the case and that makes the question also
hers, as it were, you know. They had meant to ask this question days
before, except we were on vacations and they left a message in our phone
answering machine saying it was urgent that we get in touch with them. That
was 2 days before Christmas....yet we hadn't called them yet at the time
Martha called back and we took the time for the question.

>> Yesterday, Thrusday 02 January, 1997, at 07:06 p.m. CST I received a long
>>distance phone call from a woman in another city to whom I have given chart
>>readings about once a year for the last 4 years. This time she wanted to
>>convey to me a horary question on behalf of her sister. Her sister lives in
>>Laredo Texas (099W22', 27N32'), and for years has been the exclusive lover
>>of a locally powerful business man who is married to another woman. He has
>>children with both. This man's oldest son with his actual wife is named
>>Moises, and he is the subject of the horary question. The horary question
>>is basically: Is Moises dead? or actually, where is he and what happened to
>>him? My client posing this question is in Saltillo, Coahuila (100W59'22'',
>>25N26'37'') from where she was calling to my house in Monterrey, N.L.,
>>Mexico (100W18'26'', 25N40'11'') but, as said, her sister is in Laredo, Texas.
>
>Which coordinates did you use?
>
>The other thing I'm not quite clear about is who is the querent? Your client
>phoned you, but you say that she was asking on behalf of her sister who is
>having an affair with the father of the missing boy. I think we might get
>giddy with turning this chart!

About the coordinates, as I said, I used Saltillo's and also Monterrey's, to
check them out. Ah yes, quite a bit of turning going on here indeed! I
considered that Martha, the immediate querent could be signified in the
Ascendant in Cancer, so her sister, the other querent, would be the third
from there, in Virgo, and her "husband", the father of the missing man, the
7th from there, brings us to Piscis. So M, the dissapeared guy, would be in
the 5th from Piscis, thus bringing us back to the Ascendant in Cancer.
Thus, both Martha the immediate querent and M, the missing fellow, both
would be in Cancer and thus signified by the Moon. As said, the Moon of
this chart is tight over Spica star, applying the squares to the
Jupiter/Neptune conjunction in Capricorn right on the Descendant of the
horary chart.

>> I was further told that on december 10, 1996, Moises arrived in terrible
>>shape, a bloody mess, apparently badly beaten up. He wouldn't offer
>>explnations, and early next day, December 11, he was gone and since then no
>>one has heard anything about him. Of course, he was reported missing to the
>>local police, but they have no clues. They fear he might have been involved
>>in some narco deal or something, and that maybe he has been killed, perhaps
>>by the same people that had beaten him up the previous day or by a different
>
>Do you have the time that he was last seen? Bearing in mind the matter of
>chart turning we might do better with the event chart.

Yesterday, Saturday January 04, 1997, Martha phoned me again, at 06:32 p.m.
CST, and told me that she had talked with her sister and gotten things
straight: it was actually on December 09 that M arribed badly beaten to his
house, around dusk time: his wife wanted to take him to a hospital because
he was in terrible shape, virtually a bloody mess, but he, being a macho
type (Mars at 01 Scorpio) refused to receive any help and got into the
shower. Next morning, December the 10th, his wife didn't find him anymore in
the house, but in the afternoon she received a phone call from him
instructing her to take a clean set of clothes for him from his wardrobe, to
an address he gave her. The address turned out to be a hotel room in a far
part of town and it was clear to her that he was hiding from somebody...She
gave him the clothes and he asked her to return home and not ask questions
for the moment, so she last saw him when she left that hotel at
approximately 05:30 p.m. December 10, 1996, Laredo, Texas. Nobody has seen
him again. Apparently by next day his father couldn't find him anymore in
that hotel room: he was gone!. But yesterday, Saturday January 04, '97,
Martha told me that only a couple of hours before she phoned me, her sister
in Laredo had talked over the phone with M's wife who had in turn just
received a phone call from M's brother-in-law instructing her to prepare
another set of clothes for M. from his wardrobe and that someone would drop
by to pick them up soon. The wife was very happy because at least it seems
that M. is alive, but she is worried because he is hiding from somebody and
under obvious risk. So yesterday, when Martha phoned me, the question had
change from "Is he dead?" to "Are they going to kill him?". Cancer is again
rising in this other chart for the new question, but the Moon, in Fall in
Scorpio, is not anymore facing that ominous square to Jupiter/Neptune that
is more significant because Jupiter rules House 8 in M.'s chart. That Moon
in Scorpio is separating tight halfsquares to Mars/North Node while applying
sesquisquare to Saturn/South Node....However, before leaving the sign of
Scorpio, that Moon will be sextiling the Jupiter/Neptune conjunction in
Capricorn that was squaring in the chart of the first question. Martha
asked me to record a cassette directed to M.'s father, and inform him about
whether his son is involved in anything dangerous...which at this point is
obvious he is, but don't forget that M., like his father, are well known
businessmen in several texan cities where they have many stores selling
electronic equipment and cameras. Martha`s father respects my opinion
because I once gave his "wife" a chart reading about 3 years ago and told
her that her newborn baby was going to have very serious neurological speech
disorders....at the time the baby was only a few months old and they had no
reason to suspect it, but now when the kid got to be old enogh to speak and
he didn't start even babbling, he was taken for analysis and in fact
neurological abnormalities were found in his speech areas. They have spent
incredible amounts of money on getting this kid to speak, still without
success. I have been equally successful in predicting many things for other
relatives of this family, so they respect my judgement and now Marta asks me
to tape a cassette for M.'s father warning him about M.'s possible
involvement in narco activities.

>>In the chart of the question "Is M. death?" the Ascendant is in Cancer,
>>and the Moon of the question chart is at 23^43' Libra, thus in tight
>>conjunction to SPICA star. Now, I understand that this star is considered
>>very benign, to the extent that it has been called "the most benign star in
>>heavens". I have read in William Lilly's Christian Astrology, that in fact
>>there is a moiety of orb around this star that invalidates the stricture
>>that applies when the Ascendant or the Moon fall in Via Combusta. In other
>
>I don't think that this is right, Lilly doesn't mention Spica preventing any
>affliction by the Via Combusta, I believe this is a more modern exception to
>the caution.

Err, Yes, you are very right here: I have re-read William Lilly's Christian
Astrology's Chapter 19, "On Considerations prior to judgment" and found out
that indeed he doesn't mention Spica preventing any affliction by the via
combusta. On the other hand, I found it is Derek Appleby in his "Horary
Astrology" who does mention that there is a moiety of orb around Spica
invalidating the caution that applies to the via combusta. Thank you for
straightening me out on this matter, Sue.
>
>Thank you for offering all this information, I'd love to take a look at the
>chart once you have clarified the situation.
>
>Sincerely
>
>
>Sue
>The Traditional Horary Course
>sueward@easynet.co.uk
>http://www.horary.com


When I saw the Moon over Spica, and yet applying SQUARES to the
Jupiter/Neptune conjunction, when Jupiter rules M.'s natal 8th, I figured
that maybe he was still alive, because of the protecting connotations of the
Spica/Moon conjunction, but that maybe he is going to get killed in the end
because the Moon will move off to separatation from Spica to then square
Jupiter/Neptune in Capricorn....particularly when the natal chart looks
pretty bad, given that Mars next re-direction mark is only a few minutes shy
of squaring his natal ruler of death Jupiter in detriment in Gemini, plus
the afflictions from the slower planets that I mentioned in my first posting
on this case. Now we find out that as of yesterday he was alive, since he
requested more clothes to his wife through his brother-in-law. Martha
thinks, by the way, that it is this brother-in-law who got him involved in
whatever murky business he is in now. So it is clear M. is hiding away from
somebody who wants to kill him.....and the question is whether he'll be able
to escape this danger.

I appreciate your interest and thank you very much for your attention.

Very Appreciatively

Dr. Gonzalo Pena Tamez
Astrologer

Thread:	Horary chart form
From:	McMcann@aol.com	Date:	Sun, 5 Jan 1997 06:17:12 -0800

Hello Carol,
I have been reading some of the letters lately which have brought to the
surface once again the old horary problems of deciding on the moment of the
question, what co-ordinates to use, who is the querent etc., I have found it
impossible most of the time to judge published charts as the above
information is rarely supplied. Nowadays I rarely get into them. I would
like to suggest a form of mine that I have been using privately for some
years that may help the situation. It would be up to your readers whether
they wish to use it or not.

The form as set out below is a bit rough as e-mail is quite basic. I'm sure
you could clean it up, add to it or re-design it if you decide to use it.

I'm sure that by looking at it you will understand its purpose but
nevertheless to avoid confusion I shall give some explanation.

Number 1 is used to clarify the exact time the querent thought of the
question. If for whatever reason they decided to delay or wait then a second
time can be included, or even a 3rd for that matter.

Number 2 is where the astrologer can decide if the question is serious or
not. It may have been seriously thought out or perhaps it came casually at
that very moment without any deep thought. On the other hand it may be a
question that has been set for no other reason than to test either the
astrologer or astrology itself. Finally, the astrologer may decide that it
is a second time question or that the querent has already been to consult
other horary astrologers.

Number 3 will show whether the latitude and longitude of the querent was used
or that of the astrologer, or, if a third person was involved then use their
co-ordinates.

Number 4 should clarify by house ruler who exactly was the querent.

Number 5 will show the various choices for quesited in case the house of the
quesited is in doubt for some reason.

Number 6 should be used if the querent can take some action to avoid the
astrologer's answer to the question. If the question concerned who would
win the Presidential election as recently in the USA then there isn't much
the querent could do to change the outcome. On the other hand it is possible
for them not to take the astrologer's answer when the question concerned
whether they should take a particular job or not. I'm sure you understand my
meaning. This box could be used in a simple way to test fate or free will.

Number 7 will speak for itself.

The explanation of the Via Combusta can be found in Al Biruni's book "The
Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology" no. 514, page
317 of Debbie Houlding's publication. I have written an article on the Via
Combusta in Astrology - The Astrologers" Quarterly, Vol. 61 no 2. Summer 1987
which was then reprinted in Aspect the magazine of the Irish Astrological
Association Jan 88, and again in Aspects vol. 19 no 2 Summer 94. Finally, it
appeared in "The 9th House", the newsletter of the Calgary group in Canada in
vol. 6 issue 16, Jan/Feb 1996.
_____________________________________________________________

HORARY CHARTFORM

1. Timing: 1st________________2nd________________Other_________

2. Nature of question:
Serious_________Casual________Testing_______2nd question_______

3. Co-ordinates:
Querent___________Astrologer___________Other_________________

4. Who is querent?______________________________________________

5. Quesited?:
1st choice of house ruler_________2nd__________3rd_____________

6. Can the querent or other do anything to influence or change the outcome?
Active___________Passive_________________

7. Background to the question.
A few sentences or paragraphs detailing the background story to the question.

___________________________________________________________________


Regards.

Maurice McCann.

Thread:	Missing Wedding Ring
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Sun, 5 Jan 1997 06:05:59 -0800

I appreciate all the posts as does my friend. To date, she has not yet
found the ring, but she continues to look and feels very encouraged by all
the email on the list that suggests she will find it. I'll let you all know
as soon as there is any news.

Thanks again,
Tony

Thread:	Moon on Spica question
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Sat, 4 Jan 1997 10:55:57 -0800

Dear Gonzalo

My query refers to another thread that is running on the list at the moment,
that of the moment of the question. I see that you have actually set this
chart up and I assume you have used 2 Jan 1997, 7.06pm CST? Is this the time
that the call came in or the time you understood the question? It might be
unimportant if there were only a few minutes difference between the two, but
if the conversation continued for a long time, then I wonder if the time is
good?

> Yesterday, Thrusday 02 January, 1997, at 07:06 p.m. CST I received a long
>distance phone call from a woman in another city to whom I have given chart
>readings about once a year for the last 4 years. This time she wanted to
>convey to me a horary question on behalf of her sister. Her sister lives in
>Laredo Texas (099W22', 27N32'), and for years has been the exclusive lover
>of a locally powerful business man who is married to another woman. He has
>children with both. This man's oldest son with his actual wife is named
>Moises, and he is the subject of the horary question. The horary question
>is basically: Is Moises dead? or actually, where is he and what happened to
>him? My client posing this question is in Saltillo, Coahuila (100W59'22'',
>25N26'37'') from where she was calling to my house in Monterrey, N.L.,
>Mexico (100W18'26'', 25N40'11'') but, as said, her sister is in Laredo, Texas.

Which coordinates did you use?

The other thing I'm not quite clear about is who is the querent? Your client
phoned you, but you say that she was asking on behalf of her sister who is
having an affair with the father of the missing boy. I think we might get
giddy with turning this chart!

> I was further told that on december 10, 1996, Moises arrived in terrible
>shape, a bloody mess, apparently badly beaten up. He wouldn't offer
>explnations, and early next day, December 11, he was gone and since then no
>one has heard anything about him. Of course, he was reported missing to the
>local police, but they have no clues. They fear he might have been involved
>in some narco deal or something, and that maybe he has been killed, perhaps
>by the same people that had beaten him up the previous day or by a different

Do you have the time that he was last seen? Bearing in mind the matter of
chart turning we might do better with the event chart.

>In the chart of the question "Is Moises death?" the Ascendant is in Cancer,
>and the Moon of the question chart is at 23^43' Libra, thus in tight
>conjunction to SPICA star. Now, I understand that this star is considered
>very benign, to the extent that it has been called "the most benign star in
>heavens". I have read in William Lilly's Christian Astrology, that in fact
>there is a moiety of orb around this star that invalidates the stricture
>that applies when the Ascendant or the Moon fall in Via Combusta. In other

I don't think that this is right, Lilly doesn't mention Spica preventing any
affliction by the Via Combusta, I believe this is a more modern exception to
the caution.

Thank you for offering all this information, I'd love to take a look at the
chart once you have clarified the situation.

Sincerely


Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Moon on Spica question
From:	gpena@mail.cmact.com (DR GONZALO PENA TAMEZ)	Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:16:47 -0800

Status: U


Dear Fellow Listers

Yesterday, Thrusday 02 January, 1997, at 07:06 p.m. CST I received a long
distance phone call from a woman in another city to whom I have given chart
readings about once a year for the last 4 years. This time she wanted to
convey to me a horary question on behalf of her sister. Her sister lives in
Laredo Texas (099W22', 27N32'), and for years has been the exclusive lover
of a locally powerful business man who is married to another woman. He has
children with both. This man's oldest son with his actual wife is named
Moises, and he is the subject of the horary question. The horary question
is basically: Is Moises dead? or actually, where is he and what happened to
him? My client posing this question is in Saltillo, Coahuila (100W59'22'',
25N26'37'') from where she was calling to my house in Monterrey, N.L.,
Mexico (100W18'26'', 25N40'11'') but, as said, her sister is in Laredo, Texas.

I was further told that on december 10, 1996, Moises arrived in terrible
shape, a bloody mess, apparently badly beaten up. He wouldn't offer
explnations, and early next day, December 11, he was gone and since then no
one has heard anything about him. Of course, he was reported missing to the
local police, but they have no clues. They fear he might have been involved
in some narco deal or something, and that maybe he has been killed, perhaps
by the same people that had beaten him up the previous day or by a different
party. Moises was born on December 22, 1950, at 02:00 p.m. CST, Laredo,
Texas (099W22', 27N32'). Among the current transits that may be taken as
favouring the judgment that he is dead are the following:

His natal Jupiter rules his Cusp 8 and is in detriment in Geminis and the
day he dissapeared transiting Mars in Virgo was separating a 01 degree orb
of SQUARE to that natal Jupiter ruler of 8th.

Natal Venus is in Sagittarius, conjunct natal Mercury in detriment, both in
House 8, in tight opposition to his natal Jupiter ruler of 8th in detriment
in Gemini, so that same transiting Mars in Virgo squaring Jupiter the day he
dissapeared, was also SQUARING his Mercury/Venus in 8, and in fact the orb
of the SQUARE to natal Venus in 8 was partile orb the day he was last seen.

Progressed (secondary) Jupiter, Retrograde, is currently at 16^29' Gemini,
thus positioned only 00^15' from SQUARE to the station mark where transiting
Mars in Virgo is going to be turning direct on April 27, 1997.

Transiting Pluto in Sagittarius has been stationed in exact conjunction to
his natal Cusp 8 of death.

His natal Mars is at 01^25' Scorpio, and thus has been under the steady
SQUARE from transiting Uranus stationed at the beginning of Aquarius through
most of 1996. If his Official Birth Time is only a bitt of, his Ascendant
could be brought from 29^50' Aries into the beginning of Taurus, and then
the station of transiting Uranus in Aquarius would have been SQUARING his
natal Ascendant as well as his natal Mars at the onset of Scorpio on his
Descendant.

Transiting Jupiter (natally ruling 8th) is about to conjunct transiting
Neptune now in Capricorn and the conjunction is on his North Node of the
Moon in Capricorn in tight SQUARE to his natal Neptune in Libra.....This
means that he's been under transiting Neptune SQUARE natal Neptune for many
months now and transiting Jupiter now comes to precipitate this SQUARE by
conjuncting transiting Neptune over his Node SQUARE his Neptune. In fact,
it is noteworthy that at the moment the question is brought forth, over the
telephone yesterday, transiting Jupiter in Capricorn (now the Jupiter of the
horary question) SQUARES natal Neptune with an applicative orb of only 3
minutes of arc! This means, of course, that last night transiting Jupiter
(his ruler of death) partiled orb of SQUARE to his natal Neptune. His natal
Neptune rules his 12th Cusp, but it could also be taken as ruler of
astrology, and it is under this square in his chart that his case is brought
to the astrologer as a horary question.

On the good side, in Moises natal chart, we see that transiting Saturn/South
Lunar Node in Aries are trining his natal Cusp 8, and the transiting Pluto
currently sitting on it, while transiting Uranus in Aquarius sextiles it.
Transiting Mars will soon sextile his Cusp 8 too, but since his natal Sun is
at 00^42' Capricorn, the same transiting Mars in Libra (and the North Node)
will SQUARE his natal Sun at the beginning of Capricorn. Of course,
transiting Saturn in Aries (and South Lunar Node) are squaring his natal Sun
in Capricorn too.

Any way, I just began to work on this case today, an hour ago, and I thought
of a definite question that can be worth formulating to this mailing list:
In the chart of the question "Is Moises death?" the Ascendant is in Cancer,
and the Moon of the question chart is at 23^43' Libra, thus in tight
conjunction to SPICA star. Now, I understand that this star is considered
very benign, to the extent that it has been called "the most benign star in
heavens". I have read in William Lilly's Christian Astrology, that in fact
there is a moiety of orb around this star that invalidates the stricture
that applies when the Ascendant or the Moon fall in Via Combusta. In other
words, even though this star is in an arc considered negative, the via
combusta, having the relevant significators in proximity to the star advises
not applying the via combusta stricture. So my question has to do with to
what extent the fact that the Moon of the question is in exact conjunction
to Spica, a very benign star, can be taken to signify that Moises is not
dead, even though the next aspect that this Moon will form from there are
the SQUARES to the Jupiter/Neptune conjunction in Capricorn -particularly
when in his chart Jupiter is ruler of 8th and is in detriment.

Thread:	"Time of receiving a question - Hideaki's comparitive data
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:37:34 -0800

Status: U

Dear Jonathon

I'm not sure if I'm covering old ground here because I've not followed this
discussion fully.

Jonathon wrote
>As a general principle I would still take the time the astrologer
>understands the question but I think it may be possible that the internet
>constitutes something slightly different so that the time of submission is
>more appropriate. Has anyone else done any experiments of this sort or have
>any suggestions to make?

As far as I can see an email, telephone call, fax message, smoke signals or
Morse code amount to no more than a letter by normal post. They are all
simply methods of communicating, in this case, a horary question to the
astrologer. Lilly and his contemporaries took questions by post and seem, as
far as we can tell, to have used their own coordinates for the erecting of
horary charts.

It seems clear to me that the time the astrologer understands the question
is the time for the chart. All sources that I have seen state that it is the
time the querent makes his or her intentions clear to the astrologer is the
one the base the calculations on. It is not enough for the querent to give a
time that they thought of it or when they put pen to paper (or fingers to
keyboard). Olivia Barclay once said to me that the thought is like the
conception of the question, whereas its birth is when the question is made
plain to the astrologer.

If the chart has already been erected and examined by the questioner (and it
would be useful if those submitting charts would state whether or not this
is the case), then obviously that chart with the original time and
coordinates should be accepted.

The only reference I have ever come across which refers to the chart's
coordinates exhorted astrologers to ensure that they changed the chart's
latitude when they themselves relocated. It is possible to infer from this
that it was usual to use their own coordinates and some forgot to change
them when moving around.

"97. The 97th is to consider, In what climate thou receivest the question;
for judgment must be varied as the ascensions of coutnries and climates
differ, there being not the order in the ascensions or elevations of signs,
in one climate as in another nor the same Ascendant in one region as in another.

Note by Lilly.- 'Beware therefore of a mistake here, for it will be very
unhandsome and blameworthy; for whatever part thou travellest towards, from
one region to another, whether from the East to the West, from the North to
the South, or contrarily, your Ascendant will be changed from one degree
from East to West in Longitude and e contra, and from the North to South,
and the contrary. But some jocund fools or monks, in their cups, may arise
and say, If your judgments are changed according to the situation of Nations
they are false. But there is no talking to such brutes,...' "

(Anima Astrologiae, Guido Bonatus, The Considerations.)

I know that this is a bit longwinded, but I hope it helps to clear things up.

Sue

The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	"Time of receiving a question - Hideaki's comparitive data
From:	Loyrgrrl@aol.com	Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:10:34 -0800

Hi all- wanted to chime in on receiving questions by e-mail. I got one this
last spring which came in on my e-mail. I had logged on that morning and was
checking my mail. I read it and realized it was a true question as I was
reading it- so I noted the time, logged off and had at it. It was a
question regarding fixing up a house so as to sell it, as I recall the words
were something like, "What can we do to maximize the possibility of getting
our present house sold so we can move into this new house?" I will retrieve
the data if anyone is interested- but the STORY is that the moon was in the
9th, so I asked if they were worried about the roof leaking. Turns out that
was their true secret fear- got the engineer-husband's attention. Jupiter
was in the 6th in Cap. at the time, so I suggested they needed a real estate
agent who was female, large, and with some sort of knee injury. They already
had just that person working for them. She said it was the fastest, least
complicated closing she had ever been involved with. The buyer was suggested
by Uranus in the 7th in Cap, and yes, he turned out to be a computer wonk who
worked for the state government. I was worried about the Cancer rising/Cap
descending paradigm, but the rising degree was smack on the querent's moon,
so I decided to give it a try anyway- Isn't horary lovely? Enjoy- Elizabeth

Thread:	Time of receiving a question
From:	Hideaki Kokubu <JDC00230@niftyserve.or.jp>	Date:	Fri, 3 Jan 1997 04:06:42 -0800

Dear Jonathon,

I wrote:
> Perhaps you will come to the same conclusion no
> matter which chart you do, but the former chart describes the
> situation rather than the latter one -

But, reading your delineation, I realized both charts did describe the
situation! Now I must correct myself; the time stamp of the questioner's
message and the host computer's longitude and latitude are ALSO
usable.

> and I look
> forward to hearing what really happened.

Nothing happened! The querent and I have a mutual friend, and I asked
the friend if there was any change of situation, last September or
October, the friend said, "they still live together and she hasn't
found a new job."

> Moon and Mars in mutual reception suggests that the thing desired will come
> about easily and to the content of both parties - p. 112 CA

Yes, both the querent and her husband had agreed to divorce, and the
querent's co-significator the Moon and the natural significator of men
the Sun were also separating from sextile.

They decided that the querent would live with two children, then she
had to find a new job to earn living expenses. (As you say, both charts
indicate the querent's affection towards the children.)

But, in both charts, the ruler of the tenth has no connection with
the querent's significator, and the ruler of the second is in mutual
reception with her husband's significator. The latter signification
means, I think, the querent depends on her husband's income.

Well, in the former chart the ascandant's ruler Venus and the hour
ruler the Moon are of the same triplicity, and the ascendant is near
to her natal Jupiter(the ruler of the seventh in her birth chart)...
Thank you for the delineation, Jonathon.

Regards,

Hideaki

Thread:	Happy New Year
From:	"Victor E. Tolle" <tense@www.hotmail.com>	Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:06:00 -0800

>From william_lilly@halcyon.com Wed Jan 1 16:23:29 1997
>Received: from blv-pm105-ip9.halcyon.com by mail1.halcyon.com
(5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/10Nov96-0444PM)
>id AA11871; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:37:23 -0800
>Message-Id: <9701012337.AA11871@mail1.halcyon.com>
>Comments: Authenticated sender is <cwiggers@mail.halcyon.com>
>From: "Carol A. Wiggers" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>Organization: JustUs & Associates
>To: "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 15:32:46 +8
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
>Subject: Happy New Year
>Reply-To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Priority: normal
>X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a)
>Hi everyone,
>I would like to take this time to wish you all a very happy and
>prosperous new year. This list has been great and I know that during
>1997 it will continue to be a good place for horary discussions.
>This letter will be short because we are still digging out from the
>snow/rain/mud storms and it will take a while to get everything back
>the way it was. We have electricity again after 6 days and the phone
>is back on! The wind storm last night took down a bunch of trees and
>so we have a lot of work ahead of us, but we are safe and warm.
>Again, Happy New Year to All
>Love & Light
>Carol
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>software and horary consultations
>Carol A. Wiggers, DMSAstrol. cwiggers@halcyon.com
>horary_astrology@compuserve.com
>http://www.horary.com
>phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919
>
Please accept my best wishes for an excellent 1997. I commend you for your
hard work and dedication. Victor E. Tolle

---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------

Thread:	"Time of receiving a question - Hideaki's comparitive data
From:	treelife@easynet.co.uk (Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse)	Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 1997 06:38:27 -0800

Re: Linda's response:

Thanks a lot for that one, Linda. I feel I'm beginning to get somewhere
here. What seems to be coming up is that in some cases where the question is
very clear the querent is able to establish a direct link between heaven and
earth without going through the astrologer. The astrologer can then
"download" the question later on - it has effectively already been "potentized."

This seemed to be the case with the two chart of Hideaki's which I looked at
yesterday.

Other offers?



Jonathon Clark's query
>>
>>As a general principle I would still take the time the astrologer
>>understands the question but I think it may be possible that the internet
>>constitutes something slightly different so that the time of submission is
>>more appropriate. Has anyone else done any experiments of this sort or have
>>any suggestions to make?
>
Linda Reid's response

>I did a chart recently for someone who suspected her office had been entered
>and her purse stolen. She asked the question "Is there a thief on my staff."
>The chart had 29 degree of something rising, v.o.c. moon, significators in
>via combust etc etc - all the classic - 'you can;t answer this question'
>paradigms. I reported back to her - she knows some astrology, and her
>comment was "I wish I'd phoned you when I first blurted the question out but
>I waited until morning". When that time was determined for the first
>"emotive" question,albeit addressed to the universe, the chart was clear and
>workable and we did indeed discover a thief who confessed when confronted.
>This raises the question of the "intensity" or importance of the question.
>The spontenaity of the question must also be considered. The internet does
>indeed bring up the question of 'time lapse' between asking, possibly in an
>emotive way and the astrologer's understanding. As with Jonathon, I take
>the time I understand the question, but as cited, there can be an arguement
>to take a different time.
>
>Interesting theme, looking forward to more comments on this
>
>Linda
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

Thread:	Testing
From:	Haney40@aol.com	Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 1997 06:20:09 -0800

In a message dated 97-01-01 23:38:26 EST, you write:

> Subj: Testing
> Date: 97-01-01 23:38:26 EST
> From: zjulienne@worldnet.att.net (Julienne)
> Resent-from: william_lilly@halcyon.com (Carol A. Wiggers)
> To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>
> Hi,
>
> I have been having a problem getting posts through, so I am just testing.
Am
> I doing something wrong in the way I am addressing this?
>
Julienne

Julienne, this is what I got from you.

Carol.

Thread:	]~-~[
From:	TonyLouis@aol.com	Date:	Thu, 2 Jan 1997 03:53:05 -0800

My favorite horary calculation program is Allen Edwall's horary helper for
Windows.

Tony

Thread:	Testing
From:	marion@gti.net	Date:	Wed, 1 Jan 1997 21:19:03 -0800

Hi, Julienne and All!

Happy New Year, Everybody! May our 1997 be bright with promise
and firm with the resolve to activate the gifts promised!

No, Julienne, you did nothing wrong, but your letter of around
4pm (I think) just arrived here at 12:20am Thursday. There must be a
slow-down in mail movement.

Regards,
Marion

<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Julienne wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I have been having a problem getting posts through, so I am just testing. Am
> I doing something wrong in the way I am addressing this?
>
> Julienne

Thread:	"Time of receiving a question - Hideaki's comparitive data
From:	Linda Reid <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Wed, 1 Jan 1997 21:42:50 -0800

At 11:29 AM 1/1/97 GMT, Jonathon Clark/Maggy Whitehouse wrote
>
>As a general principle I would still take the time the astrologer
>understands the question but I think it may be possible that the internet
>constitutes something slightly different so that the time of submission is
>more appropriate. Has anyone else done any experiments of this sort or have
>any suggestions to make?

I did a chart recently for someone who suspected her office had been entered
and her purse stolen. She asked the question "Is there a thief on my staff."
The chart had 29 degree of something rising, v.o.c. moon, significators in
via combust etc etc - all the classic - 'you can;t answer this question'
paradigms. I reported back to her - she knows some astrology, and her
comment was "I wish I'd phoned you when I first blurted the question out but
I waited until morning". When that time was determined for the first
"emotive" question,albeit addressed to the universe, the chart was clear and
workable and we did indeed discover a thief who confessed when confronted.
This raises the question of the "intensity" or importance of the question.
The spontenaity of the question must also be considered. The internet does
indeed bring up the question of 'time lapse' between asking, possibly in an
emotive way and the astrologer's understanding. As with Jonathon, I take
the time I understand the question, but as cited, there can be an arguement
to take a different time.

Interesting theme, looking forward to more comments on this

Linda
>>
>
>
>
>

Thread:	Testing
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Wed, 1 Jan 1997 21:42:37 -0800

At 08:27 PM 1/1/97 +0000, Carol wrote:
>Julienne,
>For the last week we have been having very bad weather, we live in
>the mountains outside of Seattle WA. 21 inches of snow in 2 days,
>ice storm and now the rains and mud slides. Our server was down for
>a while and letters are not going through properly. I have not
>received any mail from you and worldnet was spitting back everything
>I sent that way!
>Love & Light
>Carol

Carol,

I hope you'll be digging your way out of your exciting and amazing and scary
weather soon. Just when you needed to know we were all thinking of you, we
were cut off. ::

Here's hoping the connections stay tight this time...:)

And thank you to so many of you who replied to my post.

Julienne

Thread:	Thank You Carol!
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Wed, 1 Jan 1997 21:35:41 -0800

Well, here is one of my posts which didn't make it to the List - so you know
I really WAS thinking of you all. :)

And let me now also say Happy New Year! - and I am really happy to be back
in touch with you, even though it's a year since last time. :) (1996 - 97?:)

Julienne


>At 02:59 PM 12/23/96 +0000, Dorothy wrote:
>>Just a brief note to wish all listers avery joyous and bountious
>>Holiday Season. And a GREAT BIG THANK YOU to Carol Wiggers who has done a
>>great deal of work to make the william_lilly list such a great success.
>>
>>Merry Xmas to All.
>
>And I would like to add my thanks to Carol to Dorothy's, as well as my
wishes for a wonderful end of the year, and new one to come. And a special
thanks to Deb Houlding for inviting me to be here. :) Thanks Carol, thanks
Deb, thanks All.
>
>Julienne
>