Thread:	Registered: Ian Goldsmith
From:	Ian Goldsmith <igoldsmi@nla.gov.au>	Date:	Sun, 1 Dec 1996 17:01:33 -0800

Thread:	Hervey Bay
From:	ENTRTAINR@aol.com	Date:	Sun, 1 Dec 1996 20:12:46 -0800

Hi Hervey Bay People,

To everyone else, my apologies since this has nothing to do with Astrology.

My husband and I were in Australia 2 years ago. We picked up a car when we
arrived in Sydney and drove for two weeks. We drove all the way up to
Townsville and Cairns, stopping in towns along the way. Hervery Bay was one
of the towns we stayed the night in. It was so nice walking along the beach
in the morning. It seemed as if we could walk forever. We loved it and the
people we met.

Seeing Hervey Bay mentioned on the list made me want to say hello to Hervey
Bay once again.

Love to all,

Trudy

Thread:	Water test
From:	jmetz <jmetz@ix.netcom.com>	Date:	Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:01:02 -0800

Hi all-as a follow up to the water test question, we had it re-tested
and everything was okay. We paid $105 for the chlorination of the well
and retest. I think I was accurate when I saw my buyer in the 10th,
Saturn, that she was consulting the experts. I was definitely the moon
sq Neptune! Thanks to you Tony for your help and to everyone else who
commented! Janis

Thread:	Genealogy & horary
From:	Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Sun, 1 Dec 1996 14:46:11 -0800

At 03:08 PM 11/29/96 +0000, joane wrote:
>Census, name searches...more microfilms...more microfiche...dead
>ends...frustration...lamenting...is he or is he not related!
>snip<

The three tie-in confirmers were there and ruler
>hour also agreed! The relationship between the grand-uncle, the
>great-granduncle and the great-grandfather were confirmed!
>..happiness is... ; )
>===joane

Hi Joane,

I'd be interested in what those *confirmers* are - I've done our genealogy
back to the 1100's on some lines and the 1600 on many but a most important
one, my husbands paternal line and the one with the 'name' comes to a sudden
halt when we discover in the same town and the same street ( !!!) on the
same census, two Robert Reids married to two Margarets both with a son Hugh
( the known great grandfather) born about two years apart. Blind alley -
which line to take? I have the birth dates of both couples so would love to
have some way of confirming as family names frequency in both families don't
help - they have common names in both.

What a fascinating concept using horary - I could help our genealogical
society out in a big way!

Regards

Linda Reid

>
>
>

Thread:	Hervey Bay
From:	Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM>	Date:	Sun, 1 Dec 1996 04:43:33 -0800

Request for info:

Does anyone know of a contact address for a horary astrologer called Stig Oyan
from Norway. He wrote to me some time ago and I need to get in touch but no
longer have his address so if anyone can help it would be very much appreciated.
My personal address is
101572.1131@compuserve.com.

To Anne and Linda,

I'm ready and willing and don't need a horary to tell me that I will return as
soon as I am invited.

Glad to hear that you are both getting so involved and spawning lots of horary
interest over there.

Thread:	Hervey Bay
From:	Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Sat, 30 Nov 1996 14:02:15 -0800

At 11:14 PM 11/30/96 +1030, Anne Fryer wrote:
>Please add my name to the Hervey Bay Keep in Touch List.
>
>afryer@light.iinet.net.au
>
>Has Deborah Houlding done a Horary to find out when she is coming back to
>Australia?

Added - I'll email a complete list when everyone's on it -

I don't know - perhaps you should do the horary and Deb the electional! How
about it Deb? I did an "introductory" with my students the other day and
they are very sad that they have to wait so long for more - there's 30 avid
and potential turncoat psychological astrologers here.

Linda Reid
>
>
>
>
>

Thread:	Genealogy & horary
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Sat, 30 Nov 1996 05:09:11 -0800

Can we see the chart, Joan? Sounds interesting.

Sue

>Census, name searches...more microfilms...more microfiche...dead
>ends...frustration...lamenting...is he or is he not related!
>Backtracking for anyone who could confirm this has passed, their
>decendents don't know (or are very private!!!) and other sources
>have been destroyed due to wars, disasters etc. etc.
>A horary question as a possible genealogy confirmation
>tool? Well, why not - gave it a try, and, much to my delight, with
>favourable results! True, one chart does not a precedent make but
>for this query, by following Mr. Lilly's criteria - it afforded the
>desired result! The three tie-in confirmers were there and ruler
>hour also agreed! The relationship between the grand-uncle, the
>great-granduncle and the great-grandfather were confirmed!
>..happiness is... ; )
>===joane
>
>
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Hervey Bay
From:	Anne Fryer <afryer@light.iinet.net.au>	Date:	Sat, 30 Nov 1996 04:44:04 -0800

Please add my name to the Hervey Bay Keep in Touch List.

afryer@light.iinet.net.au

Has Deborah Houlding done a Horary to find out when she is coming back to
Australia?

Thread:	Question to Mr.Allen
From:	spider@wildmaw.com	Date:	Sat, 30 Nov 1996 04:01:42 -0800

Mail received, thank you.

Thread:	Genealogy & horary
From:	"joane" <joane@mail.cadvision.com>	Date:	Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:12:28 -0800

Census, name searches...more microfilms...more microfiche...dead
ends...frustration...lamenting...is he or is he not related!
Backtracking for anyone who could confirm this has passed, their
decendents don't know (or are very private!!!) and other sources
have been destroyed due to wars, disasters etc. etc.
A horary question as a possible genealogy confirmation
tool? Well, why not - gave it a try, and, much to my delight, with
favourable results! True, one chart does not a precedent make but
for this query, by following Mr. Lilly's criteria - it afforded the
desired result! The three tie-in confirmers were there and ruler
hour also agreed! The relationship between the grand-uncle, the
great-granduncle and the great-grandfather were confirmed!
..happiness is... ; )
===joane

Thread:	Hervey Bay
From:	Sylvia Wilson <sylviaw@powerup.com.au>	Date:	Fri, 29 Nov 1996 02:42:37 -0800

Status: U

Linda and Lyn

You have my email address sylviaw@powerup.com.au
So far Chris, Cyndi and Cheryl that I know of are now on email, plus Ann and
I think they have all subscribed to this list. If they haven't I will email
them privately and ask them to send you their addresses.

>From the Sunshine State and boy is it hot here!

Sylv

Thread:	HERVEY BAY
From:	Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM>	Date:	Fri, 29 Nov 1996 00:38:54 -0800

Status: U



Would delegates from Hervey Bay please list their
email addresses so that we can keep in touch.
I believe a number have gotten on the net since then.


Linda Reid canopus@tassie.net.au
Lyn Dickson canopus@tassie.net.au
Deborah Houlding 101572.1131@compuserve.com


Dear Linda and Lyn

Having recommended everyone to join the Lilly list, I've now found time to
resubscribe so I've added my address to your list. I've been trying to find
your email number so that I can keep in touch.

Hope you are both well.

Look forward to hearing from you,

Deb

Thread:	HERVEY BAY
From:	Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:24:49 -0800

Would delegates from Hervey Bay please list their
email addresses so that we can keep in touch.
I believe a number have gotten on the net since then.


Linda Reid canopus@tassie.net.au
Lyn Dickson canopus@tassie.net.au

Thread:	Considerations before Judgement
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:13:47 -0800

Tony wrote:

>Sue,
>
>Let me clarfiy what I meant by leniency. Lilly says in various places that
>the considerations before judgment are used to determine whether the chart is
>fit or safe to judge. Presumably the presence of certain of the consideratons
>means that the chart is unfit or unsafe to judge. Barbara Watters read this
>as a "stricture against judgment" and I believe jusitifiably so. By
>whitewash, I simply meant that in your objection to the concept of a
>"stricture" you were being more lenient that the literal text where Lilly
>describes the considerations as meaning that the chart was unfit for judgment.

Ok. He mentions the Considerations on page 121 and he precedes this by
saying: "All the Ancients that have wrote about Questions, doe give warning
to the Astrologer, that before he deliver judgment he well consider whether
the Figure is radicall and capable of judgment;..."

This is a report, this is not necessarily Lilly's own thoughts on the
subject. My work on these matters showed that he took a broader brush than
the above passage would allow. So, in terms of dictionary definitions and
the general understanding of the word 'stricture' his attitude contradicts it.

>I think the idea of a stricture is valuable because it forces up to have a
>valid reason to proceed with the chart despite the presence of the stricture.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Most of us have no idea what these
Considerations mean, much less how to mitigate them when they arise. For
example, how many times do we use the phrase 'nothing will come of it' when
confronted with a void of course Moon. Yet how many astrologers know what
Lilly actually meant by void of course in a technical sense? He never used
this phrase and I doubt that anyone who had to work on a chart for a missing
person would say that'nothing would come of it' if they found the Moon in
that condition. But more of this, perhaps, on another occasion.

>If this is what you mean by calling the considerations "guidelines", then we
>are in complete agreement. My concern about calling them "guidelines" is that
>beginners may get the impression that they are merely guidelines and can
>readily be ignored. I am fairly certain that you do not view them this way
>nor did Lilly.

My essay on the subject makes my position clear on this: the Considerations
should always be noted and the reasons for their appearance found before
proceeding. They are often very illuminating and sometimes can answer the
question almost without much further reference.

What grieves me is that in my early years with horary, I threw away charts
that had one or more of them operating. I will never do that again.

I think that one further point needs to be made. If you use Lilly's method,
as I do, then his attitude to the Considerations can be adopted, but if you
are using another methodm then you might be wiser to be more cautious. It's
a bit like putting a Ford engine into a Ferrari chassis - what would you expect?

>We may be involved in a long discussion of semantics.

I don't think this is the case. We must spend time understanding the
language we use, particularly when it is technical language, if we are to
use the techniques it describes appropriately and fully.

>Fondly,
>
>Tony

Regards


Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Infected kidney
From:	Despina Giannakopoulou <despinag@hol.gr>	Date:	Thu, 28 Nov 1996 04:04:30 -0800

Hi everybody
Being a horary student who has not yet reached the last lessons which I
think concern medical question,I am in a quandry about the following chart.
A good friend of mine asked me fervently about her baby who suffers from
a very severe infection of the kidneys. One of his kidneys functions at
the moment at 20% capacity.The doctors said if the function drops to 10%
capacity he will have to have a kidney transplant. The baby was born on
6/6/1995 in Athens, Greece, 9:50am (-3) 23E46, 37N56, EED(Eastern
Europ.Daylight)
In his natal chart his combust Mercury is in partil square to his Moon
and his ASC in the same degrees of the Nodes.
Now the hor.question I was asked by his mother was:
Will the kidney of my son Alexandros be removed?
Nov.25.1996 Athens, Greece,01:45:00pm EET (-2)
023E46 37N56

The first thing I noticed on the hor.chart was the hor.Mars was in partill
conjunction with his natal Moon.
The chart is valid since we have Moon hour same nature of the asc rising.
No other strictures. The mother is represened by Jupiter and the baby by
the Moon,the child's Asc in the chart.Moon peregrine -3 in his 11th house
just separated by an opposition of the Sun and going into a sinister square
with the slow peregrine Mars.Venus ruler of Libra represanting kidneys
is peregrine,in fall,in 2 degees Scorpio,angular in the child`s 4thhouse
(derived chart). Mars in this chart is in the triplicityof Venus and face
of Venus.As we know from the legendary Greek physisian Hippocrates(c.5th-4thBC)
the choleric nature of Mars is "pyr"meaning fire.Due to the horary course I
am taking I had to go through Lilly s C.A.and I stopped at his medical
charts p.268and p.289. As we know during LILLY`s era , he did not make
any references concerning removal of human organs ,but the only reference
I have found is in Dorotheus of Sidon p. 315(P,152 v39).In Lilly C.A.119
there is a table of signs, planets, and parts of the body , he has kideneys
assigned to Cancer and Libra and the planet Kronos , Saturn . In the horary
chart Saturn is in the face of Mars in fall and perregrine total -8.
In the Horary chart Saturn rules the 7th house and is posited in his 9th
house retrograde(The family will fly to the States on the 22nd January)
for a medical diagnosis. It is remarkable that Saturn in his natal chart
is posited in his 9th house and in Astrocaartography is passing through
London and the family rejected the suggestioin of going there for a medical
diagnosis.)
I have also been through the two issues of Horary Practitioiner N.13 and 14
for more information also the medical index for C.A. an Index of herbs from
LLILLY AND Culpepper.
Mars is the ruler of the 4th house, End of the Matter in the derived chart.
no fixed stars in the chart , and no antiscions.
Is there anybody out there who can give me any suggestions that would help
me a lot. Thank you very much and I an looking forward to hearing from you.
Despina.

Thread:	Considerations before Judgement
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Thu, 28 Nov 1996 04:06:15 -0800

Sue,

Let me clarfiy what I meant by leniency. Lilly says in various places that
the considerations before judgment are used to determine whether the chart is
fit or safe to judge. Presumably the presence of certain of the consideratons
means that the chart is unfit or unsafe to judge. Barbara Watters read this
as a "stricture against judgment" and I believe jusitifiably so. By
whitewash, I simply meant that in your objection to the concept of a
"stricture" you were being more lenient that the literal text where Lilly
describes the considerations as meaning that the chart was unfit for judgment.

I think the idea of a stricture is valuable because it forces up to have a
valid reason to proceed with the chart despite the presence of the stricture.
If this is what you mean by calling the considerations "guidelines", then we
are in complete agreement. My concern about calling them "guidelines" is that
beginners may get the impression that they are merely guidelines and can
readily be ignored. I am fairly certain that you do not view them this way
nor did Lilly.

We may be involved in a long discussion of semantics.

Fondly,

Tony

>>>>>>>>
----------
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 1996 6:09 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Considerations before Judgement

Tony

I don't recall ever drawing a hard and fast conclusion about Lilly's
attitude to the Considerations Before Judgement, so 'leniency' never came
into it. I did not 'interpret' the Considerations. What I tried to do was
reply to Maurice McCann who had drawn conclusions quite the opposite of yours.

My research took a great deal of time and brought out some surprising
results - surprising to me, that is. Your suggestion of 'leniency' suggests
that I was letting Lilly off the hook in some way and I don't understand
that at all. I also had the benefit of studying two of his daily workbooks,
because there was always the likelihood that someone would accuse him of
cleaning up his act for publication (some still do).

I think that it should also be remembered that to a certain extent he was
simply carrying on the tradition of his time. His declared intention was to
put this body of knowledge down in plain English for the first time and to
rid astrology of some of its (in his opinion) more hare-brained theories.
Bear in mind that he spent some time trying to learn from a self-confessed
charlatan, this coloured his thinking considerably and, in my opinion, would
have supplied an excellent motive for putting it all down on paper.

His study of the ancients is testified to by the enormous size of the
bibliography in CA, plus his earlier credits to the likes of Dariot and
Ptolemy. So, CA is based on much earlier works (as was and is the tradition,
certainly in astrological writings), but he expressly states that the method
is his, although grown out of his studies of earlier and contemporary
authorities.

I apologise to everyone for going on so long, but I think this discussion
requires some background, at least.

In the first book, the Introduction, he provides basic rulerships and
'rules', these include the Considerations. In this book he repeats much of
the accepted wisdom - he doesn't necessarily agree with it, though. There
are many 'rules' that he quotes, but never uses and in some cases explicity
contradicts. For example, he gives us the system of significators in
marriage questions and includes the planet the Moon last separated from and
the one it next applies to as significators of the relevant parties. He then
says that he wholly disagrees with this system, then repeats these
significators in the chapter on 7th house matters, but never uses them.

In my research, I found that there were some of the quoted Considerations
that he never even mentioned in his chart examples, for example, Moon in the
Via Combusta. Saturn in the 1st, is used, too. His workbooks suggest that he
did not judge horaries when the Moon was in late degrees of Gemini, as
stated in the Considerations. He judged charts with Saturn in the 1st, the
Moon void (in his terms that is), the Moon in the Via Combusta, early and
late ascendants and when the planetary hour was not in accord by the three
stated means. BUT, there were either mitigating factors, or description from
these facets, or support from other areas. I can't subject everyone to the
tedium of going through it all again - the essay is at Carol's website
(http://www.horary.com) if you are interested, it is very long.

I can only present the evidence as I found it, I did not interpret it and I
repeat what I said at the end of my essay, that I do not think he saw them
as strictures, but that he allowed them to guide him. This is where my study
of his work led me, if this is a whitewash then I'm still confused and would
ask your help with this.

>Sue,
>
>By whitewash, I meant that Lilly seems to regard the considerations as
>strictures (limitations, confining parameters) but in your reading of Lilly,
>you are more lenient in your interpretation of the considerations.
>
>>>----------
>From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
>Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 1996 2:27 PM
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Considerations before Judgement
>
>>>I wonder if you would be so kind as to explain what you mean by
>'whitewashes'?
>
Regards

Sue Ward
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	'Or' questions
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Thu, 28 Nov 1996 04:05:48 -0800

Sue,

Regarding 'or' questions, my starting point was a post by Dorothy in which she
maintained that a late Ascendant could mean that the question itself was
invalid, namely, an "either/or" type question to choose between two options.

As you point out, Lilly did deal with relocation questions (should I stay or
move) and with contests (will A or B win the battle), so that they are in the
realm of traditional horary.

The problem comes with questions of the type: "Should I choose option A or
option B?" "should I buy the Chevy or the Cadillac?" "Should I move to
London or to Bombay?" As far as I know, traditional horary artists did not
give examples of the technique for choosing between two such options. The
modern technique of skipping houses is one method. There is a classical
technique of using day and night triplicity rulerships for the two options,
but I can find no example where Lilly used this method of triplicity
rulers.

My point was that horary does offer ways to choose between two options and
that such charts should not be considered invalid.

Tony

----------
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 1996 6:09 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: 'Or' questions

Dear Tony

>>>Forgive me, but you seem to be saying that traditional rulerships don't
>handle comparison questions and then that they do. I don't understand.
>
>I do think traditional rulerships can handle "or" questions, but Lilly to my

>best recollection did not describe his technique for handling such questions.


I suppose that depends on your definition of the use of 'or'. Eg. he gives
an example of whether to stay or go, in terms of the relocation of home or
business. Is that what you mean?

>I was objecting to regarding "or" questions as invalid inquiries for
>traditional methods.

Regards

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Job Interview
From:	spica@world.net	Date:	Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:04:38 -0800

Dear Linda
A couple of things about the chart. Without any agreement between the planetary
hour and the ascendant, and with the Moon in the 5th house which doesn't seem
relevant to the question unless the job is in a 5th house area, I'd want Aquarius to
cover the querent's physical description before I'd be happy with the chart.
The Moon void of course can be said to mean nothing comes of it.
Saturn being retrograde could mean the querent returns to their original position ie
the old job, not making a change.
I'd say it would be unsuccessful.
Anne Elliott
Spica Publications

Thread:	Considerations before Judgement
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:07:49 -0800

Tony

I don't recall ever drawing a hard and fast conclusion about Lilly's
attitude to the Considerations Before Judgement, so 'leniency' never came
into it. I did not 'interpret' the Considerations. What I tried to do was
reply to Maurice McCann who had drawn conclusions quite the opposite of yours.

My research took a great deal of time and brought out some surprising
results - surprising to me, that is. Your suggestion of 'leniency' suggests
that I was letting Lilly off the hook in some way and I don't understand
that at all. I also had the benefit of studying two of his daily workbooks,
because there was always the likelihood that someone would accuse him of
cleaning up his act for publication (some still do).

I think that it should also be remembered that to a certain extent he was
simply carrying on the tradition of his time. His declared intention was to
put this body of knowledge down in plain English for the first time and to
rid astrology of some of its (in his opinion) more hare-brained theories.
Bear in mind that he spent some time trying to learn from a self-confessed
charlatan, this coloured his thinking considerably and, in my opinion, would
have supplied an excellent motive for putting it all down on paper.

His study of the ancients is testified to by the enormous size of the
bibliography in CA, plus his earlier credits to the likes of Dariot and
Ptolemy. So, CA is based on much earlier works (as was and is the tradition,
certainly in astrological writings), but he expressly states that the method
is his, although grown out of his studies of earlier and contemporary
authorities.

I apologise to everyone for going on so long, but I think this discussion
requires some background, at least.

In the first book, the Introduction, he provides basic rulerships and
'rules', these include the Considerations. In this book he repeats much of
the accepted wisdom - he doesn't necessarily agree with it, though. There
are many 'rules' that he quotes, but never uses and in some cases explicity
contradicts. For example, he gives us the system of significators in
marriage questions and includes the planet the Moon last separated from and
the one it next applies to as significators of the relevant parties. He then
says that he wholly disagrees with this system, then repeats these
significators in the chapter on 7th house matters, but never uses them.

In my research, I found that there were some of the quoted Considerations
that he never even mentioned in his chart examples, for example, Moon in the
Via Combusta. Saturn in the 1st, is used, too. His workbooks suggest that he
did not judge horaries when the Moon was in late degrees of Gemini, as
stated in the Considerations. He judged charts with Saturn in the 1st, the
Moon void (in his terms that is), the Moon in the Via Combusta, early and
late ascendants and when the planetary hour was not in accord by the three
stated means. BUT, there were either mitigating factors, or description from
these facets, or support from other areas. I can't subject everyone to the
tedium of going through it all again - the essay is at Carol's website
(http://www.horary.com) if you are interested, it is very long.

I can only present the evidence as I found it, I did not interpret it and I
repeat what I said at the end of my essay, that I do not think he saw them
as strictures, but that he allowed them to guide him. This is where my study
of his work led me, if this is a whitewash then I'm still confused and would
ask your help with this.

>Sue,
>
>By whitewash, I meant that Lilly seems to regard the considerations as
>strictures (limitations, confining parameters) but in your reading of Lilly,
>you are more lenient in your interpretation of the considerations.
>
>>>----------
>From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
>Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 1996 2:27 PM
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Considerations before Judgement
>
>>>I wonder if you would be so kind as to explain what you mean by
>'whitewashes'?
>
Regards

Sue Ward
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	'Or' questions
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:07:44 -0800

Dear Tony

>>>Forgive me, but you seem to be saying that traditional rulerships don't
>handle comparison questions and then that they do. I don't understand.
>
>I do think traditional rulerships can handle "or" questions, but Lilly to my
>best recollection did not describe his technique for handling such questions.

I suppose that depends on your definition of the use of 'or'. Eg. he gives
an example of whether to stay or go, in terms of the relocation of home or
business. Is that what you mean?

>I was objecting to regarding "or" questions as invalid inquiries for
>traditional methods.

Regards

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Job Interview
From:	Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:36:57 -0800

This is one of those badly phrased questions. It was handed om a slip of
paper to one of my natal students at 11.17 am Nov 27 1996 in Devonport Tas.
41South11 146East21. The note read " Will my Job Interview be Successful".

We are unsure whether to use the 10th house ruler and read the question as
will I get the job, or to use the 7th house ruler as the prospective
employer and interviewer.

The chart has 18 Aqu16 rising, Saturn ruler 00Ar39 Rx nicely trined by Sun
( ruler of 7th) but Saturn peregrine, from the 10th house but with Mars
ruling the 10th house and Mars in the 8th, squared by Sun. PF is conj Mars
and part of profession is trine Mars - a lot of conflicting messages. Moon
1t 26Gem41 opposes Mercury in the 11th at 18 Sagg 50 and is void of course.

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Linda

Thread:	My water test
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:52:24 -0800

We await your results with bated breath.

Tony

----------
From: jmetz
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 1996 6:57 AM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: my water test

Hi Tony and all-I will have answers by Dec 2 when the retest is done and
the results are in. I am losing money on this house already so it makes
a bad situation a worse one. Thank you for your input. I do apprecciate
it and I'll let you know!

Thread:	Considerations before Judgement
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:47:51 -0800

Sue,

By whitewash, I meant that Lilly seems to regard the considerations as
strictures (limitations, confining parameters) but in your reading of Lilly,
you are more lenient in your interpretation of the considerations.

>>----------
From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 1996 2:27 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Considerations before Judgement

>>I wonder if you would be so kind as to explain what you mean by
'whitewashes'?

>>Forgive me, but you seem to be saying that traditional rulerships don't
handle comparison questions and then that they do. I don't understand.

I do think traditional rulerships can handle "or" questions, but Lilly to my
best recollection did not describe his technique for handling such questions.
I was objecting to regarding "or" questions as invalid inquiries for
traditional methods.

Best wishes,

Tony

Thread:	Water test
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:25:24 -0800

Dear Thomas

>sueward@easynet.co.uk wrote:
>>
>> >>
>> >>If I can just pop a word or two in here: traditionally Cancer rules
>> >>the sea and Pisces rules fresh water, at least, rivers with fish,
>> >>springs, fish ponds, wells and so on. Scorpio is the same, that is
>> >>stagnant water, and smelly places.

>Sue,
> On your Rulerships I disagree through experience not books.
>But then most do believe what they read these days, I was taught as a
>child to believe nothing of what I read and only half of what I see.
>In alchemy pure elixir is 0 cancer and or the fourth house cusp, fresh
>water is akin to that.
> Blessings, Thomas

I was merely quoting the traditionally accepted rulerships, since this is a
traditional list, not decrying what you wrote.

On your other point, we accept traditional rulerships because they worked
through by our forebears (particularly Lilly) and they have proved
themselves time and again in our practices. It is not simply a question of
believing what we read.

I am sorry if I caused any offence, it was not my intention.

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Considerations before Judgement
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:25:23 -0800

Dear Tony

Tony wrote:

>Dear Carol and Dorothy,
>
>Just some thoughts about late ascendants, "strictures", and "OR" questions.

>I respect and appreciate Sue's ideas about considerations but I do think she
>whitewashes Lilly a bit regarding this matter. He is very clear in saying
>that the considerations tell us whether a chart is "fit to be judged". If a
>consideration is present, Lilly regards the chart as unfit for judgment -- at
>least that what he tells us. Now, that does sound like a stricture, doesn't
>it? I don't see the word stricture as negative, it is simply a constraint
>that limits our behavior.

I wonder if you would be so kind as to explain what you mean by 'whitewashes'?

>Lilly did not answer "or" questions, and my guess is that he did not have a
>technique for them. Modern techniques include skipping houses. In addition,
>we do use traditional methods to analyze the outcome of contests, lawsuits,
>etc, where there is an implicit "either-or" situation. One of two people can
>win a dispute or contest. We can answer questions with two possible
>outcomes.

Forgive me, but you seem to be saying that traditional rulerships don't
handle comparison questions and then that they do. I don't understand.

Regards

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	A horary question
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:05:16 -0800

Fellow listers,

I could use some help with a personal horary question. I find it's hard to be
objective about my own concerns. Here it is:

On Saturday 23 NOV 96 at 3:06 pm est (tz 5), 73w04, 41n16, I asked, "Should I
change my insurance policy?" I have the chance to pay substantially less for
a different policy, but the coverage would not be as good. Is this a wise
move? or should I stick with what I have?

Tony

Thread:	School-horary
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:05:29 -0800

Dorothy,

I also generally avoid "or" questions but I do believe that they are
answerable from horary charts.

What would rule murder? A good question. I would look for a square from an
afflicted Mars and also (forgive me) at the modern planet Pluto which appears
to be connected to the underworld of crime. I believe that traditionally
horary used Mars for murder. Maybe others on the list have more experience
with murder charts.

Tony

----------
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 1996 6:05 PM
To: Tony_ Lab
Cc: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: RE: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary

Dear Tony,

Very interesting technique. Still for myself I am going to continue to
discourage "or" questions. It just sets me off in too many directions. I
prefer that the querent focus one or the other. your insights will help me
if ever I fall off that rule again. Tell me in my murder or suicide
question, my sense is ruler of the 12th for suicide where would you what
would rule murder? The 8th would be death in general, what would you look
for violent planets in violent signs? But he could have blownhis own brains
out? Thanks in advance for letting me pick your brain a bit and thanks again
for your insights.

fondly,
dorothy
dstar@mcn.org

Thread:	School-horary
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:12:44 -0800

Carol,

The message below was rude and inappropriate. I would be embarassed to have
this person as a student, and I don't think this kind of message is
appropriate for this list.

Tony L.
=================================================

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Hi
I have just been reading this boring post. It seems you guys can't do a
horary chart. Astrologer Thomas Seers, AMAFA, taught us how to do horary in
class. Mind you that Astrologer Thomas Seers only teaches his
students by using the 7 planets. Tells us not to read anything published
after 1950's when someone decided to confuse and destroy Astrology by
changing the rulership of scropio, pisces & aquarius. William Lilly
happens to be one Mr. Seers favorative Astrologers because he recomends us to
get his books. I have all of Lilly's books (well most of them).
Mr. Seers spoiled us, his students, because we now are out into the world
and are finding that astrologers don't know how to use this scientific
tool. No wonder I call him the Awesome Astrologer. No I am not into
Idol worship--don't even Idolize what's his name -- oh yeah Jessus
Christ.
I enjoy these post because now I know Mr. Seers made us monsters of
astrology and this is all blah blah, theories and phiolosphy are
nonsense. Oh yeah what the hell does sidreal have to do with horary in
william lilly rules.
It is simple and direct just like Mr. Seers taught us in horary and
nothing more.
I can't stand the ignorance in Astrology any more so I am unscribing.



----------
From: toni telo
Sent: Monday, November 25, 1996 4:04 PM
To: Tony_ Lab
Subject: Re: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary

Carol,

The message below was rude. I don't think this kind of message is appropriate
for this list.

Tony L.
=========================

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Hi
I have just been reading this boring post. It seems you guys can't do a
horary chart. Astrologer Thomas Seers, AMAFA, taught us how to do horary in
class. Mind you that Astrologer Thomas Seers only teaches his
students by using the 7 planets. Tells us not to read anything published
after 1950's when someone decided to confuse and destroy Astrology by
changing the rulership of scropio, pisces & aquarius. William Lilly
happens to be one Mr. Seers favorative Astrologers because he recomends us to
get his books. I have all of Lilly's books (well most of them).
Mr. Seers spoiled us, his students, because we now are out into the world
and are finding that astrologers don't know how to use this scientific
tool. No wonder I call him the Awesome Astrologer. No I am not into
Idol worship--don't even Idolize what's his name -- oh yeah Jessus
Christ.
I enjoy these post because now I know Mr. Seers made us monsters of
astrology and this is all blah blah, theories and phiolosphy are
nonsense. Oh yeah what the hell does sidreal have to do with horary in
william lilly rules.
It is simple and direct just like Mr. Seers taught us in horary and
nothing more.
I can't stand the ignorance in Astrology any more so I am unscribing.

Thread:	(Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary
From:	Matthew Wilson <matthew@flash.demon.co.uk>	Date:	Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:57:14 -0800

>I will often refuse a chart if the ruler of the 7th
>house is badly placed, ie combust, (learned that the hard way)

Would the 7th placed in its sign of fall be grounds for refusal ?

>or if
>there are more that one consideration present, late ascendent ruler,

What do you mean late Asc ruler ?

>both a badly placed 7th ruler and Saturn R inthe 1st..then I would be
>extremely cautious.

Saturn retrograde in 7th ?

>
>hope this is helpful.
>
>Fondly,
>Dorothy J. Kovach
>dstar@mcn.org
>
>
>>> Kent,
>>>
>>> I would be very cautious about making a major life decision based
>>> on a horary chart with 28 degrees rising. Those ancient
>>> considerations generally work as a warning.
>>>
>>> What do others on the list think of Kent's predicament?
>>>
>>> Tony
>>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>> ----------
>>
>>Hi,
>> First I would want to see the chart, but if as you say 28 degrees is
>> on
>>the ASC that is a stricture against judgement. On that basis I used
>>to change the venue at my horary class and discuss general astrology.
>> Horary is short and sweet, No delineation is the statement of 28
>>degrees.
>> Blessings, Thomas
>>--
>> **************************************************
>> Thomas Seers AMAFA-Member 27 Years
>> P.O. Box 2178 Antioch, TN 37011- 2178
>> Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
>> Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own
>> **************************************************
>>
>>==================================
>>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>>privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
>>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>>software and horary consultations
>>cwiggers@halcyon.com
>>http://www.horary.com
>>phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919
>>
>>
>
>
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>software and horary consultations
>cwiggers@halcyon.com
>http://www.horary.com
>phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919

--
Matthew Wilson

Thread:	"Great Spirits have always encountered violent opposition
From:	gingerk7@juno.com	Date:	Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:03:29 -0800

HELLO FELLOW SPIRITS OF LIFE,

THIS IS AN ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF NOMINATION FOR THE

TITTLE OF KNIGHTHOOD OF "SIR GREAT SPIRIT" of the Year

1996


"GREAT SPIRITS have ALWAYS encountered violent opposition
from MEDIOCRE MINDS." by ALBERT EINSTEIN

I GINGER K.
being of sound mind and Repersentive of " 'THE' GREAT SPIRIT of LIFE "

DO HERE BY ACKNOWLEDGE & NOMINATE According To

"THE WISHES of 'THE' GREAT SPIRIT" (as expressed through me)

FOR The Tittle of " SIR GREAT SPIRIT" TO the Following:

1: " GREAT SPIRIT": DR. GONZALO PENA TAMEZ"

2: "GREAT SPIRIT THOMAS SEER"

3 : "GREAT SPIRIT JULIENNE MULLETTE"

4 : "GREAT SPIRIT CAROLYN M. EGAN"

5: "GREAT SPIRIT JOHN SOMOZO"

6: "GREAT SPIRIT LYNDA HILL"

7: "GREAT SPIRIT JAN J. ELKINS"

8: "GREAT SPIRIT MEADENESS"

9: "GREAT SPIRIT CHRIS TURNER"

10: "GREAT SPIRIT BETTE DENLINGER"

11: "GREAT SPIRIT CAROL A. WIGGERS"

12: "GREAT SPIRIT BARB NOVAK"


ANYONE ELSE CARE TO MAKE ANY NOMINATIONS? IF ALL AGREE

MAYBE RIGHT AFTER CHRISMAS AND BEFORE NEW YEAR WE CAN

ALL CAST SOME VOTES FOR THE NIGHTHOOD of SIR GREAT SPIRIT
OF THE YEAR. ANY FUTHER COMMENT OR IDEAS?

LOVE AND LIGHT,

GINGER K. GingerK7@juno.com

Thread:	[CAREER,Crisis of confidence]
From:	be94bmp@brunel.ac.uk (be94bmp)	Date:	Mon, 25 Nov 1996 05:43:12 -0800

Hi All,

I know this isn't strictly horary [I apologise for this] but I'm having a
real crisis of confidence and I'm really starting to question my career
choices. At the moment I'm still at uni. and in my final year studying
mechanical engineering. The thing is, just this morning the fact that I'm
graduating this June has just dawned on me and I don't know what to do! I
deeply wish to be an astrologer - research excites me no end - but I really
don't know what sort of lifestyle a typical astrologer leads. What's a
typical day - if there is such a thing? How does one plan one's day?Finance?
Further training? I've been studying astrology in all its forms for just over
a year now.
I also want to be a writer,poet,healer and to carry out the Work. A fellow
astrologer here in England suggested that because I had Neptune in my third
and Pluto would be transiting this house until well into next century I
could be a writer, which is nice to know, but I'm more in the dark about my
astrological and healing roles.Natally speaking,my rising sign is 9 degrees
Libra with Venus and Pluto (close to asc.) both in the 1st. My Sun and Merc.
are in Sag in the 2nd, Jupiter is in the 7th with Chiron, and Moon is in
11th (that of the astrologer) in Virgo.Saturn sits in the 10th in Leo.
If anyone can give me any ideas, particularly those who are pro's who have
had experience of working for a living in astrology, I would be deeply
grateful.

Namaste!
Ben

Thread:	School-horary
From:	Hideaki Kokubu <kokubu@est.co.jp>	Date:	Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:39:25 -0800

kent lambert wrote:

> With 28 degrees rising I thought I might have made up my mind and was
> fooling myself or I may have no choice because of my financial
> situation.

In my experience, I feel the ascendant sometimes fell upon the late
degrees when the querent asked about a matter trespassing on his/her
right.

For example, I had a trouble with my landlord about 6 or 7 years ago,
and asked myself, "What will come out?" I erected a chart and found
the ascendant was 29 degrees, it had no connection with my natal chart
and I was not 29 years old. But the chart described the situation
beautifully, and I judged I would stay, without discarding the chart.

After all, I realized there was no need to do horary, for the landlord
can't ask his tenant to move without good reason by law - he was asking
me to do so. I could have known the outcome without a chart, if I knew
the law.

I hope this makes sense.

Regards,

Hideaki

Thread:	A new mystery...
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:32:00 -0800

Dear Tony,
Here it is, by the way I must say, I am so grateful that you love horary as
much as I. Because you actually do the charts. It really makes this list so
much more exciting with you here.

with love and respect,
Dorothy

At 01:14 AM 9/17/96 UT, you wrote:
>RE: ," Was it murder, or was it suicide?"
>
>Dorothy,
>
>I am new to the Lilly list so I hope I'm following protocol here. You gave
>two sets of data 1995 and 1996 with differing latitudes. I used the 1996
>data.
>
>Querent = Aries ASC = Mars.
>Querent's boyfriend = Libra DSC = Venus.
>
>Boyfriend's brother = 3rd of 7th, or 9th = Sagittarius = Jupiter at 8
>Capricorn in 10th conjunct the fixed star Facies, suggesting a violent death.
>My hunch is that the violent nature of his death is what so upset her. Facies
>also suggests the the deceased was feeling isolated and cut off from others.
>
>Jupiter is departing by 4 degrees from a square to Saturn in radical 12th
>suggesting suicide perhaps by falling or a crushing blow about 4 years earlier
>(1992). Saturn rules the radical 10th (containing Jupiter), the 11th and
>12th, connecting the brother with the radical 12th of self-undoing.
>
>Moon is in late Libra and Via combust, perhaps indicating the brother's
>confused state of mind. Moon is also separating from a square of Neptune by
>4 degrees suggesting a state of confusion or inner turmoil 4 years prior
>(1992).
>
>Thanks for this interesting chart. I look forward to learning more about it.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Tony
>
> Murder or suicide
> 15 Sep 1996
> 8.00 P.M. (7)
> 123.41 WEST
> 39.55 NORTH
> 18H 26M 38S
> Regiomontanus
> 25 CPR 06 CPR 17 SAG
>
> * JU08Cpr * *
>
> UR00Aqu NE25Cpr *
>
> * * *
>
> 24 AQU * 23 SCO
>
> * * * * *
>
> * * PL00Sag *
>
> SA04Ari * * * * *
>
> SN08Ari * * *
>
> * * ** * ** * *
>
> * *
>
> * * MO29Lib
>
> 11 ARI ****************** ******************* 11 LIB
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * * ** * ** * * NN08Lib
>
> * * * ME26Vir
>
> PF17Tau * * * * * SU23Vir
>
> * * *
>
> * * * * *
>
> 23 TAU * 24 LEO
>
> * * * VE09Leo
>
> * MA03Leo
>
> * * *
>
> 17 GEM 06 CAN 25 CAN
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thread:	School-horary
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Sun, 24 Nov 1996 19:24:09 -0800

Dorothy,

I can't locate the data for the murder/suicide chart. Can you send them
again?

Tony
>>>>>>>>
----------
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 1996 6:05 PM
To: Tony_ Lab
Cc: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: RE: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary

Dear Tony,

Very interesting technique. Still for myself I am going to continue to
discourage "or" questions. It just sets me off in too many directions. I
prefer that the querent focus one or the other. your insights will help me
if ever I fall off that rule again. Tell me in my murder or suicide
question, my sense is ruler of the 12th for suicide where would you what
would rule murder? The 8th would be death in general, what would you look
for violent planets in violent signs? But he could have blownhis own brains
out? Thanks in advance for letting me pick your brain a bit and thanks again
for your insights.

fondly,
dorothy
dstar@mcn.org

>Lilly did not answer "or" questions, and my guess is that he did not have a
>technique for them.

Modern techniques include skipping houses. In addition,
>we do use traditional methods to analyze the outcome of contests, lawsuits,
>etc, where there is an implicit "either-or" situation. One of two people can

>win a dispute or contest. We can answer questions with two possible
>outcomes.
>
>In Kent's question he was asking about continuing college (a 9th house
matter)
>or focusing more on work and career (a 10th house matter) as he studied in
>college only part-time. One could look at the 9th and 10th houses, compare
>their significators, and make a judgment about which is more propitious at
>this time. In this chart, 10th ruler Venus is well-placed and dignified, but

>is not applying to any significant aspects with his significators or any
other
>planets (so, is void of course). I thought that the Moon sextile 9th ruler
>Mercury, and Mars in the 9th trine AScendant ruler Jupiter were arguments to
>complete his college degree full time. However, with Venus so well dignified

>and sextile the Ascendant, I think his decision will work out fine.
>
>Tony
>
>>>>>>>>>
>----------
>From: Carol A. Wiggers
>Sent: Saturday, November 23, 1996 11:50 PM
>To: Members
>Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary
>
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:03:36 -0700
>To: Fellow Listers <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>
>Subject: (Fwd) Re: school-horary
>
>Dear Fellow Listers,
>
>Tony asked for comments on Kent's situation, with regards to his
>school question where late degrees were rising. Sometimes the manner
>in which we ask a question, can be the culprit. Some months back I
>posted a question; murder OR suicide? about the circumstances
>surrounding the death of an american business man in Russia. Deb
>Houlding graciously pointed out that the nature of the question was
>suspect.
>
>Kent's question was:
>"Should I continue my education...OR cut back my hours...to study
>horary?" 11/20/1996 8:55am cst (6) 90w12, 32n18.
>
>Using the complete co-ordinates for Jackson Mississippi,(kent give us
>complete co-ordinates,please!) one of the considerations, late degrees
>rises with 27 sag 45 on the ascendent.
>
>When one asks a question with a OR in it, it is very difficult to
>understand where to put the quesited. Simply asking one question
>without other options, to confuse the situation works best. I am
>grateful to Deborah for reminding me of this.
>
>With regards to the term "strictures". Lee Lehman researched the word
>"stricture" to find it's point of origin in the astrological
>vernacular. Low and behold, this term is not at all classical. She
>found it originated only 23 years ago. The term was first used in
>'Horary Astrology and the Judgement of Events' by Barbara Watters as a
>chapter heading. It just caught on.
>
>I prefer brilliant astrologer and tenacious researcher Sue Ward's
>definition of the 'Considerations before Judgement', "Traditional
>astrology has a set of established principles which act as a 'guide of
>action and procedure' and offer a 'standard' to aim for" (Horary
>Practioner #16 p.11).She points out that the dictionary defines
>stricture as a 'censure'. "...disapproval is implied. So in this sense
>a stricture would be like a rebuke"(HP#16p.11).
>
>Personally I find the term 'strictures' very negative and misleading.
>In Lilly's time the so called 'strictures' were known as,
>'Considerations before Judgment', or whether the chart was 'radical
>and fit to be judged'. I beleieve that the considerations act as Sue
>says; as 'guidelines' or warnings to the astrologer before she/he
>proceeds. It doesn't mean you can't take the question, just that there
>is something to keep a discerning eye out for. Maybe your not getting
>all the info, or the question has been asked incorrectly (that OR) or
>has been asked (and answered) before; maybe some one is just not at
>all serious about the question; maybe giving the answer would be
>damaging to the client; or maybe the question is just plain over the
>astrologer's head.
>
>I have judged charts with early/late degrees, void moons, Saturn in
>the 1st, etc. The main thrust of whether I will take a chart is, 'does
>the chart reflect the situation'? Does the ascendent ruler describe
>the querent? When there are considerations present, I will try to
>figure out why. I will often refuse a chart if the ruler of the 7th
>house is badly placed, ie combust, (learned that the hard way) or if
>there are more that one consideration present, late ascendent ruler,
>both a badly placed 7th ruler and Saturn R inthe 1st..then I would be
>extremely cautious.
>
>hope this is helpful.
>
>Fondly,
>Dorothy J. Kovach
>dstar@mcn.org
>
>
>

Thread:	Water test
From:	Thomas Seers <belzar@westworld.com>	Date:	Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:53:09 -0800

sueward@easynet.co.uk wrote:
>
> >>
> >>If I can just pop a word or two in here: traditionally Cancer rules
> >>the sea and Pisces rules fresh water, at least, rivers with fish,
> >>springs, fish ponds, wells and so on. Scorpio is the same, that is
> >>stagnant water, and smelly places.
> >>
> >>Sue
> >
> >Only bad smells, or do we also count some nice smells...?
> >
> >Julienne
> >
> Only if you like nasty niffs, Julienne - but then it takes all sorts!
>
> Sue
> The Traditional Horary Course
> sueward@easynet.co.uk
> http://www.horary.com

Sue,
On your Rulerships I disagree through experience not books.
But then most do believe what they read these days, I was taught as a
child to believe nothing of what I read and only half of what I see.
In alchemy pure elixir is 0 cancer and or the fourth house cusp, fresh
water is akin to that.
Blessings, Thomas
--
**************************************************
Thomas Seers AMAFA-Member 27 Years
P.O. Box 2178 Antioch, TN 37011- 2178
Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own
**************************************************

Thread:	School-horary
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Sun, 24 Nov 1996 16:05:45 -0800

Dear Tony,

Very interesting technique. Still for myself I am going to continue to
discourage "or" questions. It just sets me off in too many directions. I
prefer that the querent focus one or the other. your insights will help me
if ever I fall off that rule again. Tell me in my murder or suicide
question, my sense is ruler of the 12th for suicide where would you what
would rule murder? The 8th would be death in general, what would you look
for violent planets in violent signs? But he could have blownhis own brains
out? Thanks in advance for letting me pick your brain a bit and thanks again
for your insights.

fondly,
dorothy
dstar@mcn.org

>Lilly did not answer "or" questions, and my guess is that he did not have a
>technique for them.

Modern techniques include skipping houses. In addition,
>we do use traditional methods to analyze the outcome of contests, lawsuits,
>etc, where there is an implicit "either-or" situation. One of two people can
>win a dispute or contest. We can answer questions with two possible
>outcomes.
>
>In Kent's question he was asking about continuing college (a 9th house matter)
>or focusing more on work and career (a 10th house matter) as he studied in
>college only part-time. One could look at the 9th and 10th houses, compare
>their significators, and make a judgment about which is more propitious at
>this time. In this chart, 10th ruler Venus is well-placed and dignified, but
>is not applying to any significant aspects with his significators or any other
>planets (so, is void of course). I thought that the Moon sextile 9th ruler
>Mercury, and Mars in the 9th trine AScendant ruler Jupiter were arguments to
>complete his college degree full time. However, with Venus so well dignified
>and sextile the Ascendant, I think his decision will work out fine.
>
>Tony
>
>>>>>>>>>
>----------
>From: Carol A. Wiggers
>Sent: Saturday, November 23, 1996 11:50 PM
>To: Members
>Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary
>
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:03:36 -0700
>To: Fellow Listers <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
>From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>
>Subject: (Fwd) Re: school-horary
>
>Dear Fellow Listers,
>
>Tony asked for comments on Kent's situation, with regards to his
>school question where late degrees were rising. Sometimes the manner
>in which we ask a question, can be the culprit. Some months back I
>posted a question; murder OR suicide? about the circumstances
>surrounding the death of an american business man in Russia. Deb
>Houlding graciously pointed out that the nature of the question was
>suspect.
>
>Kent's question was:
>"Should I continue my education...OR cut back my hours...to study
>horary?" 11/20/1996 8:55am cst (6) 90w12, 32n18.
>
>Using the complete co-ordinates for Jackson Mississippi,(kent give us
>complete co-ordinates,please!) one of the considerations, late degrees
>rises with 27 sag 45 on the ascendent.
>
>When one asks a question with a OR in it, it is very difficult to
>understand where to put the quesited. Simply asking one question
>without other options, to confuse the situation works best. I am
>grateful to Deborah for reminding me of this.
>
>With regards to the term "strictures". Lee Lehman researched the word
>"stricture" to find it's point of origin in the astrological
>vernacular. Low and behold, this term is not at all classical. She
>found it originated only 23 years ago. The term was first used in
>'Horary Astrology and the Judgement of Events' by Barbara Watters as a
>chapter heading. It just caught on.
>
>I prefer brilliant astrologer and tenacious researcher Sue Ward's
>definition of the 'Considerations before Judgement', "Traditional
>astrology has a set of established principles which act as a 'guide of
>action and procedure' and offer a 'standard' to aim for" (Horary
>Practioner #16 p.11).She points out that the dictionary defines
>stricture as a 'censure'. "...disapproval is implied. So in this sense
>a stricture would be like a rebuke"(HP#16p.11).
>
>Personally I find the term 'strictures' very negative and misleading.
>In Lilly's time the so called 'strictures' were known as,
>'Considerations before Judgment', or whether the chart was 'radical
>and fit to be judged'. I beleieve that the considerations act as Sue
>says; as 'guidelines' or warnings to the astrologer before she/he
>proceeds. It doesn't mean you can't take the question, just that there
>is something to keep a discerning eye out for. Maybe your not getting
>all the info, or the question has been asked incorrectly (that OR) or
>has been asked (and answered) before; maybe some one is just not at
>all serious about the question; maybe giving the answer would be
>damaging to the client; or maybe the question is just plain over the
>astrologer's head.
>
>I have judged charts with early/late degrees, void moons, Saturn in
>the 1st, etc. The main thrust of whether I will take a chart is, 'does
>the chart reflect the situation'? Does the ascendent ruler describe
>the querent? When there are considerations present, I will try to
>figure out why. I will often refuse a chart if the ruler of the 7th
>house is badly placed, ie combust, (learned that the hard way) or if
>there are more that one consideration present, late ascendent ruler,
>both a badly placed 7th ruler and Saturn R inthe 1st..then I would be
>extremely cautious.
>
>hope this is helpful.
>
>Fondly,
>Dorothy J. Kovach
>dstar@mcn.org
>
>
>

Thread:	Water test
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Sun, 24 Nov 1996 09:27:10 -0800

>>
>>If I can just pop a word or two in here: traditionally Cancer rules
>>the sea and Pisces rules fresh water, at least, rivers with fish,
>>springs, fish ponds, wells and so on. Scorpio is the same, that is
>>stagnant water, and smelly places.
>>
>>Sue
>
>Only bad smells, or do we also count some nice smells...?
>
>Julienne
>
Only if you like nasty niffs, Julienne - but then it takes all sorts!

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	School-horary
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:14:02 -0800

Tony wrote:

>Kent,
>
>I would be very cautious about making a major life decision based on a horary
>chart with 28 degrees rising. Those ancient considerations generally work as
>a warning.
>
>What do others on the list think of Kent's predicament?

I'd be inclined to agree with this in general terms. Whilst it can sometimes
interpret as Kent suggests (see below), it can also show a change in the
near future, which can make the question irrelevant.

>From: kent lambert
>Sent: Thursday, November 21, 1996 3:59 PM
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: school-horary
>
>Tony,
>
> I have Mercury sextile Neptune. Great for imagination but sometimes
>when it envolves me I look at it the way I want it to be not the way it
>is.
> With 28 degrees rising I thought I might have made up my mind and was
>fooling myself or I may have no choice because of my financial
>situation. Sag. rising; Jupiter significator. Moon cosignigicator.
>Higher education when mundane goes to the third house. More esoteric the
>nineth house. Here we have had some discussion about what house
>astrology falls under. Just thinking about it astrology goes beyond
>intellect (third house) to the higher mind (nineth house). I looked up
>astrology in THE RULERSHIP BOOK by Rex E. Bills. It gave the seventh as
>a secondary ruler but no house for a primary ruler.

The 9th is for knowledge or study of any kind. I don't believe there is any
need to separate elementary or advanced education. There is no house that
rules astrology as such, it is signified by Mercury which is thus known as
its natural ruler.

Hope this helps.

Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Coordinates
From:	kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com>	Date:	Sun, 24 Nov 1996 06:12:12 -0800

The only coordinates I have are round off to the nearest degree
`Kent

Thread:	School-horary
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Sun, 24 Nov 1996 05:51:29 -0800

Dear Carol and Dorothy,

Just some thoughts about late ascendants, "strictures", and "OR" questions.
I believe that in this case Kent had already made up his mind and was asking
the horary question as an afterthought or for confirmation of a decision
already made. Thus, the late Ascendant is descriptive. (Kent, correct me if
I misunderstood.)

I respect and appreciate Sue's ideas about considerations but I do think she
whitewashes Lilly a bit regarding this matter. He is very clear in saying
that the considerations tell us whether a chart is "fit to be judged". If a
consideration is present, Lilly regards the chart as unfit for judgment -- at
least that what he tells us. Now, that does sound like a stricture, doesn't
it? I don't see the word stricture as negative, it is simply a constraint
that limits our behavior.

Lilly did not answer "or" questions, and my guess is that he did not have a
technique for them. Modern techniques include skipping houses. In addition,
we do use traditional methods to analyze the outcome of contests, lawsuits,
etc, where there is an implicit "either-or" situation. One of two people can
win a dispute or contest. We can answer questions with two possible
outcomes.

In Kent's question he was asking about continuing college (a 9th house matter)
or focusing more on work and career (a 10th house matter) as he studied in
college only part-time. One could look at the 9th and 10th houses, compare
their significators, and make a judgment about which is more propitious at
this time. In this chart, 10th ruler Venus is well-placed and dignified, but
is not applying to any significant aspects with his significators or any other
planets (so, is void of course). I thought that the Moon sextile 9th ruler
Mercury, and Mars in the 9th trine AScendant ruler Jupiter were arguments to
complete his college degree full time. However, with Venus so well dignified
and sextile the Ascendant, I think his decision will work out fine.

Tony

>>>>>>>>
----------
From: Carol A. Wiggers
Sent: Saturday, November 23, 1996 11:50 PM
To: Members
Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) Re: school-horary

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:03:36 -0700
To: Fellow Listers <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
From: Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: school-horary

Dear Fellow Listers,

Tony asked for comments on Kent's situation, with regards to his
school question where late degrees were rising. Sometimes the manner
in which we ask a question, can be the culprit. Some months back I
posted a question; murder OR suicide? about the circumstances
surrounding the death of an american business man in Russia. Deb
Houlding graciously pointed out that the nature of the question was
suspect.

Kent's question was:
"Should I continue my education...OR cut back my hours...to study
horary?" 11/20/1996 8:55am cst (6) 90w12, 32n18.

Using the complete co-ordinates for Jackson Mississippi,(kent give us
complete co-ordinates,please!) one of the considerations, late degrees
rises with 27 sag 45 on the ascendent.

When one asks a question with a OR in it, it is very difficult to
understand where to put the quesited. Simply asking one question
without other options, to confuse the situation works best. I am
grateful to Deborah for reminding me of this.

With regards to the term "strictures". Lee Lehman researched the word
"stricture" to find it's point of origin in the astrological
vernacular. Low and behold, this term is not at all classical. She
found it originated only 23 years ago. The term was first used in
'Horary Astrology and the Judgement of Events' by Barbara Watters as a
chapter heading. It just caught on.

I prefer brilliant astrologer and tenacious researcher Sue Ward's
definition of the 'Considerations before Judgement', "Traditional
astrology has a set of established principles which act as a 'guide of
action and procedure' and offer a 'standard' to aim for" (Horary
Practioner #16 p.11).She points out that the dictionary defines
stricture as a 'censure'. "...disapproval is implied. So in this sense
a stricture would be like a rebuke"(HP#16p.11).

Personally I find the term 'strictures' very negative and misleading.
In Lilly's time the so called 'strictures' were known as,
'Considerations before Judgment', or whether the chart was 'radical
and fit to be judged'. I beleieve that the considerations act as Sue
says; as 'guidelines' or warnings to the astrologer before she/he
proceeds. It doesn't mean you can't take the question, just that there
is something to keep a discerning eye out for. Maybe your not getting
all the info, or the question has been asked incorrectly (that OR) or
has been asked (and answered) before; maybe some one is just not at
all serious about the question; maybe giving the answer would be
damaging to the client; or maybe the question is just plain over the
astrologer's head.

I have judged charts with early/late degrees, void moons, Saturn in
the 1st, etc. The main thrust of whether I will take a chart is, 'does
the chart reflect the situation'? Does the ascendent ruler describe
the querent? When there are considerations present, I will try to
figure out why. I will often refuse a chart if the ruler of the 7th
house is badly placed, ie combust, (learned that the hard way) or if
there are more that one consideration present, late ascendent ruler,
both a badly placed 7th ruler and Saturn R inthe 1st..then I would be
extremely cautious.

hope this is helpful.

Fondly,
Dorothy J. Kovach
dstar@mcn.org

Thread:	(Fwd) will we get the house
From:	Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Sat, 23 Nov 1996 19:00:33 -0800

>Subject: will we get the house
>
>Hi there. I am a student of astrology, very new to horary, who has
>been lurking this list for a little while and now have a question of
>my own and would really appreciate any of your thoughts.
>
By no means an expert but I'll give it a go :

First you are Jupiter - the Seller is Mercury ruler of the 7th, the House is
Mars ruler of the 4th and the Price is Venus - ruler of the 10th.

Saturn in the 4th describes the property as in need of some repair, but is
peregrine and has no power. It is in the end of the matter 4th and according
to Jacobson is good for building and land deals.

Your ruler Jupiter is in your second there is enough finance and is
applying to a sextile to Saturn so a solution to any repairs or plumbing
needed will be found.

Co ruler Moon applies a quincunx to Seller Mercury - and separates from a
trine to Jupiter, as you notedgiving and affirmative answer and maybe an
adjustment in price. Jupiter applies a trine to Fortuna.

The 5th house describes income from the property - Mars rules the house
which contains the Moon and Fortuna - which trines ruler Mars and also
Jupiter. This implies that you will be able to gain income from the property.

Venus in detriment is in mutual reception with Mars by Triplicity, Term and
Face so the price may still be negotiable, however the ruler of the seller
Mercury in in your 1st house so may be unwilling to negotiate. However,
Mercury has no dignity, is peregrine, so is unpredictable, and in Jupiters sign.

Jacobson says " If the ruler of the first is trine the ruler of the 4th such
property is good to buy." There is no aspect between buyer Jupiter and
Seller Mercury but there is translation of light. Jacobson says 'translation
of light will do". This says a deal will be concluded.

Theres probably a whole lot more, but I think one should stop when there is
enough to give a definitive answer and we have a positive chart and a
definite Yes, you will get the house.

( I supsect your heart's set on it anyway and you'll overcome any
dificulties with drainage. )

Enjoy your house

Linda

Thread:	(Fwd) Water test
From:	Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>	Date:	Sat, 23 Nov 1996 17:16:03 -0800

At 01:04 PM 11/23/96 +0000, you wrote:
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 18:33:50 GMT
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>From: sueward@easynet.co.uk
>Subject: Water test
>
>If I can just pop a word or two in here: traditionally Cancer rules
>the sea and Pisces rules fresh water, at least, rivers with fish,
>springs, fish ponds, wells and so on. Scorpio is the same, that is
>stagnant water, and smelly places.
>
>Sue

Only bad smells, or do we also count some nice smells...?

Julienne

Thread:	School-horary
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:03:35 -0800

Dear Fellow Listers,

Tony asked for comments on Kent's situation, with regards to his school
question where late degrees were rising. Sometimes the manner in which we
ask a question, can be the culprit. Some months back I posted a question;
murder OR suicide? about the circumstances surrounding the death of an
american business man in Russia. Deb Houlding graciously pointed out that
the nature of the question was suspect.

Kent's question was:
"Should I continue my education...OR cut back my hours...to study horary?"
11/20/1996 8:55am cst (6) 92w12, 32n18.

Using the complete co-ordinates for Jackson Mississippi,(kent give us
complete co-ordinates,please!) one of the considerations, late degrees rises
with 27 sag 45 on the ascendent.

When one asks a question with a OR in it, it is very difficult to understand
where to put the quesited. Simply asking one question without other options,
to confuse the situation works best. I am grateful to Deborah for reminding
me of this.

With regards to the term "strictures". Lee Lehman researched the word
"stricture" to find it's point of origin in the astrological vernacular. Low
and behold, this term is not at all classical. She found it originated only
23 years ago. The term was first used in 'Horary Astrology and the
Judgement of Events' by Barbara Watters as a chapter heading. It just caught on.

I prefer brilliant astrologer and tenacious researcher Sue Ward's definition
of the 'Considerations before Judgement', "Traditional astrology has a set
of established principles which act as a 'guide of action and procedure' and
offer a 'standard' to aim for" (Horary Practioner #16 p.11).She points out
that the dictionary defines stricture as a 'censure'. "...disapproval is
implied. So in this sense a stricture would be like a rebuke"(HP#16p.11).

Personally I find the term 'strictures' very negative and misleading. In
Lilly's time the so called 'strictures' were known as, 'Considerations
before Judgment', or whether the chart was 'radical and fit to be judged'. I
beleieve that the considerations act as Sue says; as 'guidelines' or
warnings to the astrologer before she/he proceeds. It doesn't mean you can't
take the question, just that there is something to keep a discerning eye out
for. Maybe your not getting all the info, or the question has been asked
incorrectly (that OR) or has been asked (and answered) before; maybe some
one is just not at all serious about the question; maybe giving the answer
would be damaging to the client; or maybe the question is just plain over
the astrologer's head.

I have judged charts with early/late degrees, void moons, Saturn in the 1st,
etc. The main thrust of whether I will take a chart is, 'does the chart
reflect the situation'? Does the ascendent ruler describe the querent? When
there are considerations present, I will try to figure out why. I will often
refuse a chart if the ruler of the 7th house is badly placed, ie combust,
(learned that the hard way) or if there are more that one consideration
present, late ascendent ruler, both a badly placed 7th ruler and Saturn R
inthe 1st..then I would be extremely cautious.

hope this is helpful.

Fondly,
Dorothy J. Kovach
dstar@mcn.org


>> Kent,
>>
>> I would be very cautious about making a major life decision based on
>> a horary chart with 28 degrees rising. Those ancient
>> considerations generally work as a warning.
>>
>> What do others on the list think of Kent's predicament?
>>
>> Tony
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> ----------
>
>Hi,
> First I would want to see the chart, but if as you say 28 degrees is
> on
>the ASC that is a stricture against judgement. On that basis I used to
>change the venue at my horary class and discuss general astrology.
> Horary is short and sweet, No delineation is the statement of 28
>degrees.
> Blessings, Thomas
>--
> **************************************************
> Thomas Seers AMAFA-Member 27 Years
> P.O. Box 2178 Antioch, TN 37011- 2178
> Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
> Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own
> **************************************************
>
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>software and horary consultations
>cwiggers@halcyon.com
>http://www.horary.com
>phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919
>
>

Thread:	Water test
From:	sueward@easynet.co.uk	Date:	Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:33:04 -0800

If I can just pop a word or two in here: traditionally Cancer rules the sea
and Pisces rules fresh water, at least, rivers with fish, springs, fish
ponds, wells and so on. Scorpio is the same, that is stagnant water, and
smelly places.

Sue

>If I may,
> You have my vote Tony! Cancer and the fourth always rules the fluids of
>human consumption, fresh water.
> Blessings, Thomas
>PS: Bodies of water, Cancer=fresh, Scorpio=swamp and Pisces=ocean.>
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com

Thread:	Will we get the house
From:	Donna King <celestia@conneti.com>	Date:	Sat, 23 Nov 1996 08:28:42 -0800

Hi there. I am a student of astrology, very new to horary, who has been
lurking this list for a little while and now have a question of my own
and would really appreciate any of your thoughts.

My husband and I have been searching for a house for quite a while now.
With mega-inflated housing prices (we live in Vancouver, B.C. - New Hong
Kong, some people call it), most everything in our price range is either
a dump or unsuitable for some reason or another. There is another
glitch - in order to afford the payments we have to be able to put a
suite in the basement and rent it out.

Anyway, we have finally found a house that we both really love. It's
back border is a provincial park - and all of the windows face into the
mountains - it is truly beautiful. But one of our conditions of
purchase is if we can install a bathroom and kitchen downstairs. Just
by our own visual inspection, we cannot tell, as it looks like all of
the existing drains (serving the upstairs) are above head level, exept
there is a washing machine down there, but it's not immediately apparent
where it drains. We have to call in a professional plumber to have a
look.

I ran the chart this morning for Nov 23 at 8:02 am PST in Vancouver. If
I am correct, I am represented by the Ascendant ruler, Jupiter, and the
Moon in Taurus. I am enthusiastic (Jupiter) about the house. The Moon
is applying to Jupiter. Can I take this as an immediate and affirmative
yes? The fourth house ruler, Mars, is also applying to trine Jupiter.
Is it significant that the fourth house cusp is at 0 Aries? Also I am
not sure where to look for the drain. I would think the fourth house.
Saturn is also at 0 Aries. This seems fairly negative to me, however,
the clarity of the Moon/Jupiter combined with this has me confused.

Any thoughts? Thanks much. ...Donna

Thread:	School-horary
From:	Thomas Seers <belzar@westworld.com>	Date:	Fri, 22 Nov 1996 19:35:18 -0800

Tony_ Lab wrote:
>
> Kent,
>
> I would be very cautious about making a major life decision based on a horary
> chart with 28 degrees rising. Those ancient considerations generally work as
> a warning.
>
> What do others on the list think of Kent's predicament?
>
> Tony
> >>>>>>>>>>
> ----------

Hi,
First I would want to see the chart, but if as you say 28 degrees is on
the ASC that is a stricture against judgement. On that basis I used to
change the venue at my horary class and discuss general astrology.
Horary is short and sweet, No delineation is the statement of 28
degrees.
Blessings, Thomas
--
**************************************************
Thomas Seers AMAFA-Member 27 Years
P.O. Box 2178 Antioch, TN 37011- 2178
Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own
**************************************************

Thread:	Cazimi perp
From:	Dorothy and Alexander Kovach <dstar@mcn.org>	Date:	Fri, 22 Nov 1996 19:31:01 -0800

Dear Fellow Listers,

Exactly one month after the third anniversary and within blocks of the very
house that 12yr old Polly Klass, was abducted from and subsequently
murdered, another little 12 year old girl was raped. The rape occured on
Friday Nov 1, 1996 at 2:30pm PST (8) Petaluma, Ca. 122w38, 38n12.
Thankfully, this 12 year old was not killed. She was able to identify from a
police photos, the suspect, one Larry Wayne Cole, 55, a known sex offender
and paroled kiddnapper. After the assault he burglarized her home and fled.
Any takers on what became of Coles?


fondly,
Dorothy
dstar@mcn.org

Thread:	School-horary
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:05:58 -0800

Kent,

I would be very cautious about making a major life decision based on a horary
chart with 28 degrees rising. Those ancient considerations generally work as
a warning.

What do others on the list think of Kent's predicament?

Tony
>>>>>>>>>>
----------
From: kent lambert
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 1996 3:59 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: school-horary

Tony,

I have Mercury sextile Neptune. Great for imagination but sometimes
when it envolves me I look at it the way I want it to be not the way it
is.
With 28 degrees rising I thought I might have made up my mind and was
fooling myself or I may have no choice because of my financial
situation. Sag. rising; Jupiter significator. Moon cosignigicator.
Higher education when mundane goes to the third house. More esoteric the
nineth house. Here we have had some discussion about what house
astrology falls under. Just thinking about it astrology goes beyond
intellect (third house) to the higher mind (nineth house). I looked up
astrology in THE RULERSHIP BOOK by Rex E. Bills. It gave the seventh as
a secondary ruler but no house for a primary ruler.
We have Pisces on the third house cusp; traditional ruler Jupiter which
is the significator of me placed in the first house. I do intend to get
my degree. Modern ruler Neptune in the first conjunct Jupiter. My
academic education comes first. Virgo on the nineth house cusp (ruling
astrology?, college education?); Mercury trine Moon. Moon secondary
significator. Gimini on the seventh house cusp (ruling astrology?);
again Mercury trine Moon. Uranus (definitely rules astrology) in the
first house conjunct the second house cusp. The astrology has to do with
making it financially.
I am learning horary so more commends please. If I am wrong tell me.

Kent

Thread:	My water test
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:04:48 -0800

Janis,
Jupiter rules the 6th and 10th and lies in the 7th. My guess is that Moon
Square Juptier will be reflected in your loss of profit on the house (maybe
the 6th signifies how worried you are becoming over this). The other
stressful aspects you mention are quite far off and out of traditional orb, so
I wouldn't worry about them.
I'd be interested to know what others on the list think. Let us know the
outcome of this interesting chart.

Tony

>>>
----------
From: jmetz
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 1996 6:48 AM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: my water test

Thank you Tony for your input-it makes sense to me using the 4th as the
underground well. I am responsible for making it right so the cost to do
so is mine (being a Taurean, I hope its not going to be too much!) Just
one more question for you-The moon will sq Jupiter and Neptune on this
chart after it trines Mercury. Do you say Jupiter/Neptune is the buyer
since it is in the 7th? Do you think that means she'll back out of the
deal? This isn't a buy /sell chart. Also she is in the l0th and she did
contact the authorities to find out about well water and what it means
etc. These final aspects concern me or shouldn't they? The moon also
oppose Venus my hopes and wishes. Help-Panic is setting in by the second as I
am writing this-Thanks Janis

Thread:	School-horary
From:	kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com>	Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:58:45 -0800

Status: U

Tony,

I have Mercury sextile Neptune. Great for imagination but sometimes
when it envolves me I look at it the way I want it to be not the way it
is.
With 28 degrees rising I thought I might have made up my mind and was
fooling myself or I may have no choice because of my financial
situation. Sag. rising; Jupiter significator. Moon cosignigicator.
Higher education when mundane goes to the third house. More esoteric the
nineth house. Here we have had some discussion about what house
astrology falls under. Just thinking about it astrology goes beyond
intellect (third house) to the higher mind (nineth house). I looked up
astrology in THE RULERSHIP BOOK by Rex E. Bills. It gave the seventh as
a secondary ruler but no house for a primary ruler.
We have Pisces on the third house cusp; traditional ruler Jupiter which
is the significator of me placed in the first house. I do intend to get
my degree. Modern ruler Neptune in the first conjunct Jupiter. My
academic education comes first. Virgo on the nineth house cusp (ruling
astrology?, college education?); Mercury trine Moon. Moon secondary
significator. Gimini on the seventh house cusp (ruling astrology?);
again Mercury trine Moon. Uranus (definitely rules astrology) in the
first house conjunct the second house cusp. The astrology has to do with
making it financially.
I am learning horary so more commends please. If I am wrong tell me.

Kent

Thread:	(Fwd) Re: my water test
From:	Thomas Seers <belzar@westworld.com>	Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:58:45 -0800

Status: U

Tony_ Lab wrote:
>
> Janis,
>
> If I have the right chart, 10 Cancer rises. I would think the well is ruled
> by the 4th (things buried in the earth, resources of the earth), so Mercury
> would rule the well. Mercury in 6th having just conjoined Pluto and under the
> sunbeams may represent the toxins in the well. Ascendant ruler Moon will
> trine Mercury suggesting a favorable outcome. Jupiter does rule the 10th of
> the price of the house and the square from the Moon may simply reflect that in
> the end you will end up spending more to sell the house and getting less
> profit than you had hoped for. Also, as Carol mentioned the 8th rules
> poisoning, Saturn rules the 8th and is posited in the 10th (with the South
> Node), indicating a lowering of the price you receive because of the toxic
> well problem.
>
> Let me know what happens.
>
> Tony

If I may,
You have my vote Tony! Cancer and the fourth always rules the fluids of
human consumption, fresh water.
Blessings, Thomas
PS: Bodies of water, Cancer=fresh, Scorpio=swamp and Pisces=ocean.>
--
**************************************************
Thomas Seers AMAFA-Member 27 Years
P.O. Box 2178 Antioch, TN 37011- 2178
Web Page-http://www.westworld.com/~belzar/
Standard Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own
**************************************************

Thread:	My water test
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Thu, 21 Nov 1996 03:22:32 -0800

Janis,

If I have the right chart, 10 Cancer rises. I would think the well is ruled
by the 4th (things buried in the earth, resources of the earth), so Mercury
would rule the well. Mercury in 6th having just conjoined Pluto and under the
sunbeams may represent the toxins in the well. Ascendant ruler Moon will
trine Mercury suggesting a favorable outcome. Jupiter does rule the 10th of
the price of the house and the square from the Moon may simply reflect that in
the end you will end up spending more to sell the house and getting less
profit than you had hoped for. Also, as Carol mentioned the 8th rules
poisoning, Saturn rules the 8th and is posited in the 10th (with the South
Node), indicating a lowering of the price you receive because of the toxic
well problem.

Let me know what happens.

Tony

Thread:	Book???
From:	"Joanna M. Ashmun" <jmashmun@nwlink.com>	Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:02:31 -0800

Does anyone have this book or know where it can be found?

Hans Koster. Astrological House Systems. Bannister Associates, Still
River MA 1976. Typed, around 250 pages.

Please email me privately if you have any information.

Thanks.

Joanna

Thread:	School-horary
From:	"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>	Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:27:00 -0800

----------
From: kent lambert
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 1996 1:00 PM
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: school-horary

Hi folks,

This morning sitting in calculus class, the idea came to mind to cast a
horary chart to answer a question that had been on my mind for awhile.
The time was 8:55 am. The question was should I continue my education
the way I am going now (with a full load), or cut back on the hours I am
taking so I can give more time to studying horary and trying to
incorporate it into my astrology practice. Next semester I will be
taking 3 physics courses and 1 history totaling 14hrs of credit. I cast
the chart for Jackson, MS (90 long., 32 lat.), 8:55 am CST. My
interpretation is to go ahead with the horary and cut back on my hours
at school.
Comments Please.

Kent

Thread:	School-horary
From:	kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com>	Date:	Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:00:13 -0800

Hi folks,

This morning sitting in calculus class, the idea came to mind to cast a
horary chart to answer a question that had been on my mind for awhile.
The time was 8:55 am. The question was should I continue my education
the way I am going now (with a full load), or cut back on the hours I am
taking so I can give more time to studying horary and trying to
incorporate it into my astrology practice. Next semester I will be
taking 3 physics courses and 1 history totaling 14hrs of credit. I cast
the chart for Jackson, MS (90 long., 32 lat.), 8:55 am CST. My
interpretation is to go ahead with the horary and cut back on my hours
at school.
Comments Please.

Kent

Thread:	Eye glasses
From:	kent lambert <kentl@netdoor.com>	Date:	Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:49:12 -0800

Status: U

What house would you look to for eye glasses? I thought of the 3rd or
the 3rd from the 6th.
Kent

Thread:	Will I have to go to court for custody.
From:	Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Mon, 18 Nov 1996 21:12:44 -0800

At 06:42 PM 11/18/96 +8, Carol A. Wiggers wrote:

Dear Carol,

Many thanks for your prompt help - I did make a mistake is assigning Jupiter
to the child - looked at the 4th house instead of the fifth - this clarifies
the chart - I'll now have another look at the situation. The father had
already made his move and since posting my query, I had a call from the
mother - she had been in conference with her lawyer and his legal aid lawyer
to determine whether she is entitled to legal aid. The system now goes to
the legal aid arbiter who will decide but it does seem that he will get aid.
Her situation is such that if she has to pay for her own legal costs, she
will suffer a lot of hardship. I have told her that I have no doubt she will
have to go to court over this. It nowe looks as if the child's wishes will
be the determining factor.

Thank you again for your help -what a dummy - I knew I should have looked at
the fifth, but my eyes must have been squinting!

Love

Linda
>
>
>

Thread:	Will I have to go to court for custody.
From:	Linda <canopus@tassie.net.au>	Date:	Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:39:49 -0800

This question was posed to me by a client. She was married and had 3
children, but the marriage broke down when she was pregnant with a 4th
child. She raised the children alone for 7 years and the ex husband was
given access to the 3 older children, but because he had not been involved
in parenting the 4th, the child did not want to visit him. He is now
claiming full custody of that 4th child, and has stopped all maintenance
payments for the other three ( she never claimed maintenance for the 4th
child - Darren) Her ex.has remarried and has now given up his job so that
he can gain legal aid, and my client, who has remarried will have to pay
costs herself. The child does not wish to live with his father who is a
total stranger to him.

The time of the question was 10.11 am November 1 1996 at 40S59 145E54 AEDT
(-11hrs) 14 Cap04 rising Regiomanatus houses. The quesitor is ruled by
Saturn, Rx, in fall and peregrine in the 4th house. The child is ruled by
Jupiter in the 1st house in fall and in its own term and the Ex husband by
the Moon, dignified in the 7th house.

Does the Sun rule the judge in this case, being in the 10th of judgement,
or should I use Mars, ruler of the 10th. Using the Sun, it seems that the
Moon trine Sun in the 10th of the judge the husband will get his way and she
will have to go to court.

The Sun makes no contact with the mothers significator. Should I use the
10th as the end of the matter 4th for the husband containing Sun and 4th for
the mother containing Saturn. Or should I use the 2nd as the end of the
matter for the judgement disposed by Saturn.

Moon;s next aspect is to Fortuna in the 9th which is trined by the child's
significator. Mars in the 9th of legal matters is MR with Mercury which is
combust the Sun.

Could someone help me to decide which significator to use for the judgement.
I am sure she will have to go to court based on the better condition of the
exhusbands significator, but unsure whether to use the same significators
for the judgement.

Thanks for any help, this woman is distraught.

Linda





>
>
>

Thread:	Ex's Money: reply to Joe Crane
From:	aselzion@ix.netcom.com (RD )	Date:	Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:35:37 -0800

Hi Joe...

I think I would read this question as a 2nd house issue, because it
relates to the INCOME/SUBSTANCE of the querent. I also would have a
look at the lord of the 8th as a reference to the "other party's
money". This perhaps is the cleanest way to find out about money owed.

Did the estranged couple have children? Perhaps then you may want
to look at the FATHER 4th from the CHILD 5th (radical 8th house) in
which case the 9th radical house would represent the INCOME of the
child's father... this is a good trial case for a horary astrologer,
and I'd like to be updated as to the outcome of the question when and
if it becomes known to you.

Additionally, the CHART itself may help you decide which houses to
use... The FIRST should decribe the querent... does the 7th describe
the ex?? If so, we come back to the 8th house as his income.

Very interesting... hope this helps a bit. Please keep us posted.
:)

In the Light...
Richard

Thread:	Significator for an Ex
From:	JosephC637@aol.com	Date:	Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:04:00 -0800

Hi-
I'm a recent arrival to this list and I'm impressed with its atmosphere of
hard work and tolerance.
Here's a new one for me. I have a Question about a woman's husband's alimony
payments, and particularly her husband's ex-spouse. I recoil at turning the
chart so that the ex becomes the seventh from the seventh, meaning the first.
Perhaps there's a simple reference for this, or a systemic approach that
would solve this for me, but I'm presently quite confused about it.
I'd love to hear what you've used, in a similar situation.

Curt - thanks for your comment on Whole Sign Houses and the consideration
about an Ascendant. I never thought of it that way.

Joseph Crane

Thread:	Planet's change in HSys
From:	Carla Vorsatz <milarep@ibm.net>	Date:	Mon, 18 Nov 1996 02:23:39 -0800

Julienne wrote:
>
> Hi Carla,

> People
> usually don't even know there ARE different rules for different house
> systems, and such different rules are rarely taught.
> So, though what you say sounds reasonable, it's purely theoretical.
>
> Love,
>
> Julienne

Hello Julienne,

The fact that people don't know and/or use something is not really a
criterion for its validity. You're right about actuality, but it is not
that it doesn't WORK that way, it is just that it's not USED that way.
What does not mean at all that it does not work that way.
Even though these rules, as you said, are rarely taught, what is
interesting is if they work or not, and whether they give more precise
results.
The theory is the base for the practice and do not oppose it. That's why
is useful to look for those theories.
love
Carla