| Thread: |
Correction |
| From: |
tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma) |
Date: | Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:06:51 -0700 |
The following is a correction for the summary of mailinglists I sent you a few
days ago:
"William Lilly" - born July 28, 1996 at 6:22 am PDT, 123W41 38N54,
for traditional astrology. To subscribe send Email
to: william_lilly@halcyon.com with the word:
subscribe as subject and you will receive all
details. Moderator: Carol A. Wiggers.
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---
| Thread: |
Luck Timing |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Tue, 1 Oct 1996 03:44:26 -0700 |
Hi Kent, I think your story is a superb example. It indicates the possibility
of predicting such things, and also wonderfully illustrates that there is a
constructive side as well. Someone's post mentioned about greed taking over,
and this only goes to confirm it. What a pity. Maybe the main point is being
overlooked - perhaps it isn't a question of avoiding temptation, but
developing the ability to control it. Anyone can be a hero when not in the
front line. Hmmmm .... dunno, I'm just interested to see how far charts can
actually work and I think your example is brilliant!
Regards
Angela
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Tue, 1 Oct 1996 03:42:46 -0700 |
Hi Allen,
I think you have probably interpreted this far more deeply than the original
query was intended, consequently more debatable issues are being raised, and
rather than run the risk of boring others on the list, or causing irritation
if it is seen as being other than pure astrology, I suggest we place this in
the 'pending' file, or continue purely between thee and me. I have enjoyed our
discussion tremendously, and am happy to continue privately, if you wish, as
there are many divergencies which seem to be becoming apparent. On the other
hand, we can leave it for another day if you prefer.
Regards
Angela
| Thread: |
Luck Timing |
| From: |
"kent lambert" <kentl@netdoor.com> |
Date: | Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:48:07 -0700 |
Hi Folks,
I've been observing the discussion about using astrology for financial
gain through charting the times for buying stock, lotteries, etc. Recently
I've been interested in using astrology to buy stock. I'm unsure as to
whether it should be used.
I will relate the only experience I've had with astrology and luck. A lady
came to me to have her chart cast and read. In reading the chart I read the
transists, progressions, and directions. I do not remember exactly what was
in her 5th house natally but it was lucky. She was born lucky? She had a
long term lucky transist going. Amoung other things I gave dates and times
when things would go her way for the next year. I had no idea she was going
to go to the casino at those times. She won alot of money. She won't tell
anyone how much she had won but she drew crowds she won so much. She came
back after that year and wanted me to read the transists to her chart. I
did and saw the possibility an obsession in her life that year (Pluto).
What she wanted was the timing for gambling. I warned her of the possibiliy
her becoming addicted to gambling if she continued. She continued and
became addicted. Right now she is still at it. I'm waiting for the outcome.
Kent
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
allen edwall <76401.275@CompuServe.COM> |
Date: | Mon, 30 Sep 1996 20:43:04 -0700 |
Hi, Angela,
>> In relation to speculating on the stock market, and using astrology in that
regard, again, I don't really follow your objection. I am not involved in such
financial arenas, admittedly, but whatever a person's work involves, how can it
be wrong, morally or otherwise, to use astrology in order to try and define good
conditions?
Can you imagine the Christ sitting around and casting charts so that He could
see when the best time was to gamble or to partake of the other so-called
"harmless" pleasures of life?
My point was basically this - in the futures or options market, if someone
writes a contract, he then tries to sell said contract to someone else, a buyer.
The person who is writing the contract sells it to this buyer and it is only
valid for a certain time length. If the price of the underlying security or
product does not go against him before expiration, then he pockets the buyer's
premium and he wins money while the buyer loses money. On the other hand, if the
price of the security or underlying product goes against the seller, then he is
liable to "cover" that security or product at the previous agreed on price, no
matter how far it goes against him. In this case, the buyer makes money and the
writer of the contract loses money. This is where the big money is in the stock
market. It's not in regular shares of common stock, but in highly leveraged
products as described above. In this transaction, then, someone has to win and
someone has to lose. Either the writer keeps the purchaser's premium or the
purchaser exercises his option and the writer must pay up, out of his own pocket
with no limit to the potential loss.
For someone to use astrology against another in this sort of transaction is not,
I contend, the highest use of our spiritual art. Is it any wonder that people
don't take astrology and astrologers seriously when they have their own
self-interests at heart? That is all I am suggesting.
Allen
| Thread: |
Mercury's shadow |
| From: |
spider@wildmaw.com |
Date: | Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:02:22 -0700 |
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hi All,
I know you've not missed me but I've missed you and in a vain attempt
to catch up on all the mail I've been storing over the last week or so
I have managed to delete ALL my mail! I thought Mercury had gone
direct? Anyway, I hope you've been not been indulging in idle gossip
- - as I've missed it.
Seriously, I appologise for ignoring anyone - in case I have.
- --
TTYL, Mark
*******************************************************************************
Mark A. Webb - spider@wildmaw.com
@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@@@
"In that blankness is held !@@ @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@ @@! @@! @@@
undiluted potential. At the !@@!! @!@@!@! !!@ @!@ !@! @!!!:! @!@!!@!
same time pregnant and empty.." !:! !!: !!: !!: !!! !!: !!: :!!
Ralph Blum - The Blank Rune ::.: : : : :: : : : :: ::: : : :
PGP key available on any PGP keyserver
Key fingerprint = 05 2D E7 10 74 FD 58 B9 90 43 21 A8 42 B4 92 EB
*******************************************************************************
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3i
Charset: noconv
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface
iQCVAwUBMlAqZAfKY8CQv4epAQH3vgQAhBm7HOnmac2eDWGhx2K+NGxYyJyc6PrI
LS1TcbCrNTcO4mZSJSh34ywwRE3LXGeg0jD0+16mwwyT8ZlL2dSbmCciU1v8teUf
04jOIJQUt0ZhaH08GVt7iSdGw8Y93bEmaqUktCq5VQ5DEH7GQoMCZroZsE/LOq+4
Lk6hxUETs9g=
=lVmJ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
| Thread: |
Will the cancer come back? |
| From: |
motive@juno.com (Lee Miller) |
Date: | Mon, 30 Sep 1996 21:22:39 -0700 |
Hello Everyone
I am posting this question to the list with the hope that someone out
there does these types of questions. I have not gotten that far in my
own studies. I need to ask you for help with this because the lady is
very distressed and with just cause. At this point she doesn't know what
direction to go in. Your help will be greatly appreciated by all of us.
If you need further information please just ask and I will get from her.
Question was asked at this time.
Sept. 30, 1996
5:20 pm EDT
Gainesville, Florida
a)Will the cancer return?
b) Will I go back to work soon?
c)Will I be able to keep the job and pay the bills if I go back to work?
d)Am I making a bad decision by going back to work?
e)Will I be better off by staying at home and not going back to work?
f)Will George(husband) get a job soon?
The lady is worried that if she goes back to work she gives up the
medical benefits that are paying for her current medication and hospital
treatment. She has had both breasts removed because of cancer in the
past. She is worried that the cancer will come back and she will not be
able to afford the treatment, medication and may then loose the job.
Her husband had been out of work for a while, then went to work and after
a few weeks was layed off again. She is very worried and would like some
advise.
Lee
motive@juno.com
| Thread: |
Question on house rulerships for the Lilly list |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:54:13 -0700 |
What a grand piece of clarification, many thanks. Waters can tend to become
a little muddy with various perceptions as to correct practise, it's good to
come across definitive statements.
Angela
| Thread: |
(Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:32:07 -0700 |
Hi Carol,
Like Linda, I also have trouble with understanding when to use what for the
chart co-ordinates and have similarly reasoned that the time and place when
the astrologer understands the question are the ones to use, seemingly in
accordance with Lilly's rule book. It is difficult to understand when to
deviate from any apparent given ruling. Let's say the 'last time seen' wasn't
known, could you then use when the astrologer understood the query?
Another very basic point (apols if it's too basic, but purely for clear cut
understanding), please could you illustrate the difference in practise between
an event chart and horary? It is often referred to, but your response in this
case seems to draw an extremely definite dividing line between the two types
of chart, implying that to adopt horary procedures would be cataclysmic. So
please could you define exactly what one does in an event chart as against a
horary, and, once again, apols for my ignorance.
Regards
Angela
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:03:53 -0700 |
Hi David,
Yes it is a funny old game, but it's consoling to know that even the 'greats'
had occasional hiccups!
I may be wrong, but I understood the original query to be about 'charting' the
best horses to back, and my subsequent input re the lottery. I know what you
mean about greed taking over, but really, the initial enquire was, I think,
far more innocent than the tone it has begun to acquire; and at the end of the
day, it is intriguing to stretch the parameters of any given thing, especially
the 'thing' you happen to be working with.
Is there such a thing as a 'lucky streak'? - or is it as Jeanne suggested, a
question of having an inherent sense of timing; perhaps it is more down to
studying natal charts; or maybe there is a system of influencing the dice of
the roulette wheel, or the numbers of the lottery, or the winner of the Grand
National. I don't know, but it seems feasible to follow the thought that
whatever divinatory system one uses, from tarot to horary to clairvoyance, if
there is such a thing as the 'future', whether time be linear or otherwise,
then it may be possible to tune in to such a thing. Personally, I don't think
it is, too many people have tried over too many centuries. I once decided to
try various things to help pick the winning numbers of the national lottery -
I used a computer programme; drew up a chart; used my natal chart; dealt the
tarot; tried 'automatic' writing; closed my eyes and let the pen 'pick'
the numbers; meditation - meanwhile, my partner tried dowsing with a pendulum
etc, etc, etc - we didn't win a bean - whereas my mum who just happened to be
with me when I was filling out the form, paid over her pound and chose her
numbers there and then - and won a tenner!! I gave up at that point!
Regards
Angela
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Mon, 30 Sep 1996 06:22:26 -0700 |
Sorry Allen, each to their own, admittedly, but I think you have a very
cynical approach here. Maybe we are coming at the question from different
vantage points, I don't know; but in cases of 'trade', then presumably one
trades one energy for another, ie, money for goods, or, conversely, goods for
money, either way, one thing is traded for another, so by pure analogy of the
word, no-one is the loser. In cases of speculation, if one person wins the
lottery, for example, what are you saying? That the one person, or group of
people, who won are morally and ethically wrong because by virtue of them
winning they deprived someone else the pleasure? I don't think so. In
mundane competitions which are on the back of every cereal packet et al, and
the various national lotteries, not to mention horse racing, and any other
kind of speculative activity, of course there will be winners and losers,
that's what it's all about, but I don't think it's a question of depriving
another of something if you happen to be in the lucky seat every now and again
(or even just once!), and, to return to the original question, it is
interesting to see if astrology can be used to indicate any fortuitous streaks
in this regard. If you feel it is so wrong, presumably whenever you win a
raffle, be it church, boy scouts, or whatever, you give the prize back -
because in winning you are making the other entrants losers.
In relation to speculating on the stock market, and using astrology in that
regard, again, I don't really follow your objection. I am not involved in such
financial arenas, admittedly, but whatever a person's work involves, how can
it be wrong, morally or otherwise, to use astrology in order to try and define
good conditions? Whether it be to 'suss-out' new employees; the best time to
float a new venture; or the most advisable to invest; or the viability (or
whatever the stock market term is) of a new Company. Why do you see this as
being at someone else's expense? You're not working various spells and magics
towards someone else's downfall so you can prosper, that, I agree, is out of
order; but tuning in see the state of play or catch the tail of some passing
lucky streak, I'm sorry, but I think that is something which is good fun and
very interesting to speculate on - furthermore it is something to share so
anyone can catch hold and join in the fun.
Regards
Angela
| Thread: |
SUBJECT |
| From: |
leegates@tiac.net (Lee Gates) |
Date: | Sun, 29 Sep 1996 17:11:28 -0700 |
subscribe
| Thread: |
SUBJECT |
| From: |
bosse@bahnhof.se (Bosse Omhav) |
Date: | Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:15:38 -0700 |
subscribe
| Thread: |
SUBJECT |
| From: |
"Cyndie Boyer" <cboyer@cwconnect.ca> |
Date: | Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:29:14 -0700 |
subscribe
| Thread: |
Missing date |
| From: |
Tstcl@aol.com |
Date: | Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:03:28 -0700 |
Greetings to all at William Lilly.
The following is the closest approximation that I have for the time that
Kristen Smart went missing from the Cal Poly campus at San Luis Obispo,
California.
May 25, 1996 1:30 am PST
Long - 120w45
Lat - 35n15
After talking with Carol, I made a chart using Regiomontanus house system.
Kristen was 6 feet 1inches tall, blonde, born at a late degree Pisces
I do not have any birth information on the suspect, Paul Flores, I only know
that he was the last person to see her, and that he is (was) a student at Cal
Poly also. The search dogs detected the scent of blood that could only have
been either menstrual or from a dead body on his matress in the dormitory. He
refuses to talk to the police.
My own deductions after looking at the above chart are:
a) she's dead
b) there were at least two other people involved in her demise.
c) they transported her body to a South Westerly location
d) she's buried, but in a container, possibly metal, and because of the
agricultural nature of the area, she may be in a grain storage container.
e) I feel the suspect's father either own's the property or is somehow aware
of the location.
I'm hearing conflicting stories about Flores not having relatives up here,
some say he is currently living with relatives in a town South West of the
campus called Arroyo Grande.
Another rumour was that Flores bragged about having dumped her body in the
Nipomo Mesa, (and he implicated another boy named Jeremy Moon) again South
West of the campus and near the town of Arroyo Grande, but even more westerly
that Arroyo. Paul and Jeremy work at a gas station/garage in Arroyo Grande.
On Friday, September 20th, they featured Kristin's story on "Unsolved
Mysteries".
I originally posed the horary question in July, while looking at Kristen
Smart's birthchart (which I've managed to lose) with a woman who was in on
the foot search.
I know there is a reward, for anyone interested in the money, you can call
Detective Henry Stewart at the San Luis Sherriff's department: (805)
781-4523.
Any support would be much appreciated. Kindest Regards, Tess.
| Thread: |
Fwd: hello again |
| From: |
Tstcl@aol.com |
Date: | Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:02:18 -0700 |
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Fwd: hello again
Date: 96-09-26 19:25:36 EDT
From: Tstcl
To: Tony_LaB@msn.com
Tony, this wasn't forwarded, I just mis addressed it so I'm resending it.
Tess.
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: hello again
Date: 96-09-26 13:46:47 EDT
From: Tstcl
To: Tony_Lab@msm.com
Hi, Tony.
I haven't heard anything since my last post to you. I hate to bother you, but
I need some help in verifying my interpretation of the horary chart on
Kristin Smart. Unsolved Mysteries did a segment on this case last Friday. I
must say, though, I did not get involved because of a reward. I have
concluded that she is underground but in some kind of a container, and that
the suspect's father is aware of the location possibly because it's his
property, but I don't know how to determine how far away the location is.
Please e-mail me if it's okay to call you either Friday or Saturday
afternoon, your time. Kindest Regards, Tess.
| Thread: |
Question on house rulerships for the Lilly list |
| From: |
"J. Lee Lehman (leephd@ix.netcom.com)" <leephd@ix.netcom.com> |
Date: | Sat, 28 Sep 1996 04:38:40 -0700 |
Tony_ Lab wrote:
>
> I would be interested in your opinions on the following situation. An
> astrologer friend asked a horary question about her client who had recently
> become unemployed: "When will my client get a new job?"
>
> The astrologer asking the question is shown by the first house. Which house
> represents the astrologer's client who is seeking employment?
Frankly, I have problems with this question at all, because I have doubts about
whether the astrologer/Querent even has standing to ask the question. As we
dealing with a frustrated natal astrologer who hasn't learned how to predict
natally? Are we dealing with a situation where the astrologer gives a damn
enough about the client to even ask this seriously?
Now, if you believe despite my concerns that this is a valid question, we have
recently gotten a statement of the rule from Bonatti, a rule evidently used by
Lilly in his "Ship at Sea" horaries, but never explicited stated. Bonatti
stated, concerning questions on ill parties, the issue of house rulership
depends on whether the astrologer asks the question with the patient's
permission. If the answer is "yes," then BOTH the Querent/astrologer and the
patient are the 1st House. If the question was asked without the knowledge or
permission of the other party, then said party is given by the house
relationship of that person to the Querent, which in this case would be the 7th
house - a client.
Source: Liber Astronomiae Part IV on Horary. Project Hindsight Latin Track XIII:
69.
--
J. Lee Lehman, Ph.D. (http://www.netcom.com/~leephd/home.html)
P.O. Box 501107, Malabar FL 32950, USA (leephd@ix.netcom.com)
Phone (407) 728-2277 Fax (407) 728-2244
Horary & Electional Astrology Consultations & Instruction
| Thread: |
(Fwd) Re: (Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart |
| From: |
sueward@easynet.co.uk |
Date: | Sat, 28 Sep 1996 07:17:22 -0700 |
Carol wrote:
>Dear Linda,
>I don't know what Deb's stance is on this, but I have worked with Sue
>Ward and Dorothy on these types of cases and they agree with using the last
>seen chart in the things we have done.
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with this and the rest of Carol's post. This is
even the case where the last seen time is a little vague.
Linda's problem/confusion about how to treat the chart, is one of the
reasons for my being a bit of a purist when it comes to trad. astrol. -
let's get the basics right first.
To extend this to Angela's recent post about the vertex, I would say that if
any of us wishes to discuss a 'modern' technique, then this is fine. But it
has to be done in the spirit of the list which in my view is one of debate
and a comparison to the traditional method. For example, what does an
astrologer gain, if anything, by using points like the vertex that they
wouldn't get from the traditional alone?
Speaking purely from personal experience, I think that when we have to
resort to later additions, it's because we have failed to recognise the
story in the main scheme (see my and Dorothy's recent posts re. almutens
which give a similar story). And I have tried almost all of them at one time
or another, in the end I realised that if I studied the basic scheme
properly, I should be able to judge the chart. I did and I can (well, give
or take the odd blunder or two!).
Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com
| Thread: |
(Fwd) Re: (Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart |
| From: |
Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> |
Date: | Sat, 28 Sep 1996 05:29:14 -0700 |
Dear Linda,
I didn't know I would be seeing you on the course - I am looking forward to
meeting you.
Carol writes:
"I don't know what Deb's stance is on this, but I have worked with Sue
Ward and Dorothy on these types of cases and they agree with using the last
seen chart in the things we have done."
I haven't worked on enough charts of this nature to have a strong stance on it.
The only 'missing' charts I do are all horaries but they have all been asked by
a querent who is directly involved in the situation, so I use the time they ask,
and my location. But I think I would go along with Carol in the case of a
'missing person at large' chart, mainly because I know that she and Sue have far
more experience in this area than I do. Sue recently gave a talk and
demonstration on missing person charts worked on by herself and Carol which were
drawn from the time of a significant event (like their last appearance). It was
quite impressive. I doubt whether the event chart would be quite as revealing
as a horary asked by an immediate family member or close friend, but in the
absense of that, I would prefer to work on an event chart than a 2nd or 3rd hand
horary.
See you soon.
Deb
| Thread: |
Question on house rulerships for the Lilly list |
| From: |
"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> |
Date: | Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:09:14 -0700 |
Status: U
I would be interested in your opinions on the following situation. An
astrologer friend asked a horary question about her client who had recently
become unemployed: "When will my client get a new job?"
The astrologer asking the question is shown by the first house. Which house
represents the astrologer's client who is seeking employment?
Thanks in advance,
Tony
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
allen edwall <76401.275@CompuServe.COM> |
Date: | Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:11:45 -0700 |
Status: U
>> The universe is incredibly bountiful, and I think there's enough prosperity
to go around without depriving anyone--unless someone's deliberately trying to
swindle someone out of something, and in honest speculation, that is not the
case.
Oh? What about they guy on the opposite side of the trade? If you win, he loses.
Allen
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
allen edwall <76401.275@CompuServe.COM> |
Date: | Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:11:45 -0700 |
Status: U
Hi, Angela,
>> Why do you think one person's gain is another's loss?
Because for every buyer there is a seller and vice-versa. This is especially
true in options and futures where the big money hangs out. And where the big
money is, that is where you will find the high rollers and the people who will
use any advantage they can over someone else.
>> Presumably you subscribe to a view of cosmic scales, and whereas I think it
quite a feasible conception, it is by no means an open and shut case.
Truth never is, it seems. If it were, we wouldn't have so many different
factions trying to tell us what their "truth" is. But whether people know it or
not, whether they admit it or not, TRUTH does exist, sometimes in agreement with
their ideas and sometimes radically opposed to their ideas.
Hey, let's do a horary on "Is it immoral or at least unspiritual to use
astrology to make money in the stock market". Time is 10:32 pm CDT, 87W58,
42N01.
>> I would say that for me at any rate it is a question of the old adage 'Do as
you will, be it harm none.'
My contention is that it can harm someone, having traded for over 10 years now.
Allen
| Thread: |
(Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart |
| From: |
Linda Reid <canopus@tassie.net.au> |
Date: | Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:31:42 -0700 |
At 04:12 PM 9/27/96 +8, Carol A. Wiggers wrote:
>Before reading this please be aware that there is a $10,000.00 reward
>on this case.
>Carol
Dear Carol - I have understood that a horary chart should be set for the
time and location that the message reaches the astrologer - which ever
astrologer - can you clarify this for me please as I note quite often charts
are provided along with the question - does the originating chart take
precedence over a foewarded question, given that it might qualify as more
spontaneous or have more desperation in it.
I'm sorry if this seems a fundamental question - I'll be doing Deborah
Houlding's course in Hervey Bay next week - it's a long time since I read
Ivy Jacobson but this seems to be where I've gotten this idea.
Regards
Linda Reid 9.28 am Saturday 27th Sept.
>
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 20:56:45 UT
>From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Missing Person: Kristen Smart
>
>Fellow Horary List Astrologers,
>
>I received a call from Tess St.Claire in California. She was looking
>for help with a missing person chart. A female college student,
>Kristen Smart, was kidnapped in St.Louis Obispo and has not yet been
>found. A suspect has been questioned.
>
>The woman was first reported missing on 5/25/96 about 1:30 am pst (tz
>8) (yes PST - Tess converted the time to PST).
>
>Tess asked the horary question on 7/23/96 at 8:34 pm PST (tz 8).
>
>Both charts are for 120w45 and 35n15.
>
>Both charts have the same significators for the missing person (ruled
>by the 1st). In the horary question chart, there is a late ASC and
>the Moon is via combust, perhaps signifying that the woman is dead as
>the police suspect.
>
>If you have a chance to look at these charts, I'm sure Tess would
>welcome any feedback. Her email address is TSTCL@aol.com, or you can
>post info here and I can forward it to her.
>
>
>Thanks for your help,
>
>Tony
>
>=====
>
>PS: TESS just wrote again today:
>
>" I need some help in verifying my interpretation of the horary chart
>on Kristin Smart. Unsolved Mysteries did a segment on this case last
>Friday. I must say, though, I did not get involved because of a
>reward. I have concluded that she is underground but in some kind of
>a container, and that the suspect's father is aware of the location
>possibly because it's his property, but I don't know how to determine
>how far away the location is."
>
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>software and horary consultations
>cwiggers@halcyon.com
>http://www.horary.com
>phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919
>
>
@====================================@
A man came out from the Wilderness
" I exist" he cried to the Universe
"Good" replied the Universe
I need someone to look after
My Cats!"
@====================================@
| Thread: |
Missing Person: Kristen Smart |
| From: |
"Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com> |
Date: | Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:04:43 -0700 |
Fellow Horary List Astrologers,
I received a call from Tess St.Claire in California. She was looking for help
with a missing person chart. A female college student, Kristen Smart, was
kidnapped in St.Louis Obispo and has not yet been found. A suspect has been
questioned.
The woman was first reported missing on 5/25/96 about 1:30 am pst (tz 8) (yes
PST - Tess converted the time to PST).
Tess asked the horary question on 7/23/96 at 8:34 pm PST (tz 8).
Both charts are for 120w45 and 35n15.
Both charts have the same significators for the missing person (ruled by the
1st). In the horary question chart, there is a late ASC and the Moon is via
combust, perhaps signifying that the woman is dead as the police suspect.
If you have a chance to look at these charts, I'm sure Tess would welcome any
feedback. Her email address is TSTCL@aol.com, or you can post info here and I
can forward it to her.
Thanks for your help,
Tony
=====
PS: TESS just wrote again today:
" I need some help in verifying my interpretation of the horary chart on
Kristin Smart. Unsolved Mysteries did a segment on this case last Friday. I
must say, though, I did not get involved because of a reward. I have
concluded that she is underground but in some kind of a container, and that
the suspect's father is aware of the location possibly because it's his
property, but I don't know how to determine how far away the location is."
X-cs:
From: Self <cwiggers>
To: @LILLY.PML, Linda Reid <lreid@ida.tassie.net.au>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: (Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart
Reply-to: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:50:06 +8
Dear Linda,
If I was working on this case I would read an even chart. The reason
for this is because if you take the last time the person was seen you
can trace his or her movements and see what happened. Only as a last
resort would I use a horary chart for this. First of all you would
have to assign the 1st house to the querent, if the querent had no
ties to the person missing (or dead or whatever) the Lilly says you
assign the 1st house to the victim. I have found however that these
charts are not clear and the best rule of thumb is to use the "last
time seen" chart.
To answer the other part of your question. The time and location is
taken of the astrologer when the astrologer understands the question.
This is what I do unless the querent INSISTS that I use their time
and location (usually this is another astrologer!). Lilly was quite
clear anout this on page 166 of "Christian Astrology".
But in this case Tess is not related to the lost person, she has no
connection to the family and she was not asked by someone else, she
simply asked the question, so the time last seen would be a more
valid to chart to my way of thinking.
I don't know what Deb's stance is on this, but I have worked with Sue
Ward and Dorothy on these types of cases and they agree with using the last
seen chart in the things we have done.
I hope this is helpful to you.
Love & Light
Carol
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:31:47 +1000
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com, "Members" <william_lilly@halcyon.com>
From: Linda Reid <canopus@tassie.net.au>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart
At 04:12 PM 9/27/96 +8, Carol A. Wiggers wrote:
>Before reading this please be aware that there is a $10,000.00 reward
> on this case. Carol
Dear Carol - I have understood that a horary chart should be set for
the time and location that the message reaches the astrologer - which
ever astrologer - can you clarify this for me please as I note quite
often charts are provided along with the question - does the
originating chart take precedence over a foewarded question, given
that it might qualify as more spontaneous or have more desperation in
it.
I'm sorry if this seems a fundamental question - I'll be doing Deborah
Houlding's course in Hervey Bay next week - it's a long time since I
read Ivy Jacobson but this seems to be where I've gotten this idea.
Regards
Linda Reid 9.28 am Saturday 27th Sept.
>
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 20:56:45 UT
>From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>
>To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
>Subject: Missing Person: Kristen Smart
>
>Fellow Horary List Astrologers,
>
>I received a call from Tess St.Claire in California. She was looking
>for help with a missing person chart. A female college student,
>Kristen Smart, was kidnapped in St.Louis Obispo and has not yet been
>found. A suspect has been questioned.
>
>The woman was first reported missing on 5/25/96 about 1:30 am pst
>(tz 8) (yes PST - Tess converted the time to PST).
>
>Tess asked the horary question on 7/23/96 at 8:34 pm PST (tz 8).
>
>Both charts are for 120w45 and 35n15.
>
>Both charts have the same significators for the missing person (ruled
>by the 1st). In the horary question chart, there is a late ASC and
>the Moon is via combust, perhaps signifying that the woman is dead as
>the police suspect.
>
>If you have a chance to look at these charts, I'm sure Tess would
>welcome any feedback. Her email address is TSTCL@aol.com, or you can
>post info here and I can forward it to her.
>
>
>Thanks for your help,
>
>Tony
>
>=====
>
>PS: TESS just wrote again today:
>
>" I need some help in verifying my interpretation of the horary chart
>on Kristin Smart. Unsolved Mysteries did a segment on this case last
>Friday. I must say, though, I did not get involved because of a
>reward. I have concluded that she is underground but in some kind of
>a container, and that the suspect's father is aware of the location
>possibly because it's his property, but I don't know how to determine
>how far away the location is."
>
>==================================
>William Lilly Mailing List william_lilly@halcyon.com
>privately owned and brought to you by-JustUs & Associates
>Traditional Astrological publications, courses,
>software and horary consultations
>cwiggers@halcyon.com
>http://www.horary.com
>phone (206)392-8371 fax(206)392-1919
>
>
@====================================@
A man came out from the Wilderness
" I exist" he cried to the Universe
"Good" replied the Universe
I need someone to look after
My Cats!"
@====================================@
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
David Plant <106142.2566@compuserve.com> |
Date: | Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:39:34 -0700 |
Hi Angela, Jeanne, Allen
Angela wrote,
>We are talking about influencing an energy flow here, or at least the
>possibility of it, what is so unethical about that?
I think it's a question of what the energy is and where it's flowing from.
A rant about the ethics of raw capitalism isn't appropriate on this list so
I won't get into that. But I've been researching the interface between
alchemy and astrology for an article in a future TA and it's interesting
how some alchemists believed they were chasing fabulous wealth while others
saw it in terms of spiritual evolution. Is money in the bank the same thing
as 'the inner gold of the Sun'? Jeanne wrote,
>The universe is incredibly bountiful, and I think
> there's enough prosperity to go around without
>depriving anyone--
But at some point greed enters the equation and people start grabbing more
than their due. Then as Allen said it's dog-eat-dog -- one speculator gets
rich by bankrupting another, which I don't see as part of the cosmic
blueprint that astrology is supposed to turn us all on to. I realise that
as a non-professional astrologer I'm in a position to take the high moral
ground and come over all pompous, and of course judgements about wealth and
power have been part of astrology from the year dot, so I'm not criticising
or condemning anyone. Astrologers do sometimes come unstuck once they jack
into money and power though. Even William Lilly made some embarrasingly
inaccurate public predictions just as his career peaked, and I think
that's why he spent the rest of his life living quietly in the country.
It's a funny old game, astrology.
David
X-cs:
From: Self <cwiggers>
To: @LILLY.PML
Subject: (Fwd) Missing Person: Kristen Smart
Reply-to: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:12:04 +8
Before reading this please be aware that there is a $10,000.00 reward
on this case.
Carol
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 96 20:56:45 UT
From: "Tony_ Lab" <Tony_LaB@msn.com>
To: william_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Missing Person: Kristen Smart
Fellow Horary List Astrologers,
I received a call from Tess St.Claire in California. She was looking
for help with a missing person chart. A female college student,
Kristen Smart, was kidnapped in St.Louis Obispo and has not yet been
found. A suspect has been questioned.
The woman was first reported missing on 5/25/96 about 1:30 am pst (tz
8) (yes PST - Tess converted the time to PST).
Tess asked the horary question on 7/23/96 at 8:34 pm PST (tz 8).
Both charts are for 120w45 and 35n15.
Both charts have the same significators for the missing person (ruled
by the 1st). In the horary question chart, there is a late ASC and
the Moon is via combust, perhaps signifying that the woman is dead as
the police suspect.
If you have a chance to look at these charts, I'm sure Tess would
welcome any feedback. Her email address is TSTCL@aol.com, or you can
post info here and I can forward it to her.
Thanks for your help,
Tony
=====
PS: TESS just wrote again today:
" I need some help in verifying my interpretation of the horary chart
on Kristin Smart. Unsolved Mysteries did a segment on this case last
Friday. I must say, though, I did not get involved because of a
reward. I have concluded that she is underground but in some kind of
a container, and that the suspect's father is aware of the location
possibly because it's his property, but I don't know how to determine
how far away the location is."
| Thread: |
Gambling and lotteries--correction |
| From: |
jeanneg@icon.net (Jeanne Garner) |
Date: | Fri, 27 Sep 1996 06:54:55 -0700 |
<blush> I see I goofed on my most recent post--it said 11th house, but
should have said 12th for that kite. Sorry if I've confused anyone!
Jeanne
==-* My stars!
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
Julienne <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net> |
Date: | Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:51:54 -0700 |
At 02:51 AM 9/27/96 +0000, allen edwall wrote:
>>> Astrology is one of the closest forms of that working, why should it be
wrong
>to apply it to our lives across the board? No, I do not think it is unethical -
>just impossible, blast it!!
>
>In order to gain in the financial markets means that someone has to take a
trade
>opposite yours and thus lose on that trade while you gain on it. To use
>astrology to gain advantage over another is not the right use of astrology.
>Using astrology to help people is valid, using it to personally gain advantage
>over or to make oneself or another gain power, control, money or anything else
>over another is not valid.
>
>
>Allen
Bravo, Allen. :)
Julienne
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Fri, 27 Sep 1996 02:38:50 -0700 |
Hi Jeanne,
I do agree with you on the boutiful universe aspect, I think the motivation
behind an action is the important criteria - deliberately trying to swindle
someone has a completely different flavour, and will operate a totally
different set of reaction wheels, to honest speculation.
Forgive my ignorance, but could you just elucidate a little on the 5th and 9th
house importance? I can understand the 5th hse importance with creativity et
al, but I'm not sure about the 9th. I must admit, I think the natal chart
must be more relevant, is this what is meant by being 'born lucky'? An innate
sense of timing would also be a pretty good interpretation of 'luck'.
Thanks
Angela
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:37:57 -0700 |
Why do you think one person's gain is another's loss? Presumably you subscribe
to a view of cosmic scales, and whereas I think it quite a feasible
conception, it is by no means an open and shut case. We will all view the
cosmic rule book in whatever way makes sense to us, but I would say that for
me at any rate it is a question of the old adage 'Do as you will, be it harm
none.' I do believe in a balanced universe, but I don't think it is quite as
specific in its application as you're understanding implies.
Thereby we can only act in accordance with our own code book of harmony and
consideration.
Regards Angela
| Thread: |
On Ginger's query... |
| From: |
gpena@sauce.cmact.com (DR GONZALO PENA TAMEZ) |
Date: | Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:26:25 -0700 |
Fellow Listers:
As transiting Mercury turns direct now, I would like to apologize first for
having rushed to sent my last communication to the list on "Loteries and
gambling" without having proof-read it: I'm sorry for all those typos and
mistakes. Of course I should have been more carefull particularly since I
knew that retrograding Mercury was squaring my natal Uranus ruler of my
Ascendant.
Let me confess now that, although I've been a consultant astrologer for so
many years, I seldom get into studying horary charts, partly because I am
thoroughly profficient handling most questions via progressions and
transits, and partly because I do not feel proficient using horary
techniques, which is one reason why I registred for this forum, in the hope
of learning how to improve my horary techniques.
Now, getting to the issue of Ginger's query about the outcome of the trial
that shall decide on the custody of her great-granddaughter, I'll remark
that when Ginger initially asked me about it in an e-mail, her main concern,
as I understood it from a very long recount of the case, seemed to be her
desire to find out in advance whether getting herself involved in the trial
would benefit or harm Shanna's case to obtain at least a 50/50 custody over
her daughter Chyana. In other words Shanna was asking Ginger to accompany
her to court and sign a declaration that would strengthen her image as a
responsible mother worthy of receiving the custody of her daughter.
However, when Ginger posted her query in this list, as Deborah gathered, she
comes across as more concerned about the outcome of the trial, without
bringing forth the issue of whether things could go better if she complies
to accompany her grand-daughter to court. Maybe Ginger's posting here then
came through like that because I'd already replied to Ginger saying that
although the transits to Shanna's chart reveal that the outcome of the
initial hearing would be against Shanna, she should nonetheless accompany
her and do her best to help her even though the results would most likely be
very unfavourable to their case. What I saw in Shanna's chart, was that at
the trial, transiting Mercury at 20^23' Virgo will be applying a
peri-partile square to Shanna's natal Moon at 20^50 Gemini, which is much
relevant as Moon rules Shanna's 5th Cusp of children, and Mercury rules her
4th of the mother and her 4th from her 4th, of her grandmother....So,
considering that Shanna is going to have that square from transiting Mercury
(signifying Ginger in her chart) to her natal Moon (signifying her daughter)
no matter whether Ginger complies to go or not, I figured that the best
advise was that Ginger, with due caution, should agree to accompany Shanna
to court. I reasoned that if she took the alternative option of not going
to court, that would be naturally signified in the square from the trial's
Mercury to Shanna's natal Moon ruler of her 5th, and that would surely be
worst that the risk that by going things could actually turn out for the
worst, particularly if she is aware of the aspects, as she is. But at the
same time transiting Saturn and the Lunar Node in Aries, enhanced by the
current Lunar Eclipse that I am watching through my studio's window as I
write these words now, trian Shanna's natal Saturn at 02^56' Leo in her
natal House 5 of children (Pluto in Sagittarius is closing the grand trian).
This slow Fire grand trian with one vertice on Shanna's Saturn in her House
5 of children, tightly conjunct Ginger's natal Nadir/SUN/Pluto conjunction
(super-tight as all involved orbs are less than 20 minutes!) easily is taken
to mean that despite bad news surely coming on this preliminary hearing, if
they play it naturally and pursue it, even if that may mean having to appeal
a negative sentence, in a matter of weeks the issue of the custody will be
settled very much in accordance with Shanna's expectations. So that's
basically what I had to say to Ginger when I advised her to jump in and try
to help her grand-daughter with all her resources, and keep trying despite
an initial negative impression to their cause.
So now the thing is to see whether the main concern of Ginger as she
initially queried me on the matter, and the assumed correctness of my
advise, reflect in any discernible fashion in the chart of the query as she
posted it here.
Thank you very much for your kind attention
Dr. Gonzalo Pena Tamez
Astrologer
| Thread: |
Good Question for the list:& Introduction {Ginger K.} |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Fri, 27 Sep 1996 01:21:21 -0700 |
Hi Deb, in response to your main points: I don't have Lilly's CA with me at
present, so can't quote references, but he does state to the effect that
nothing happens when the Moon is VOC, except when she is VOC in Taurus,
Cancer, Sag, or Pisces when "... she performs somewhat...." hence my
interpretation that although nothing of great significance seems set to
transpire in regard to the decision of the Court, because of the Moon's
limited influence, it would seem to imply that something may be able to be
rescued from the situation; such as, the Judge may decide to grant total
custody to the father, but may defer the case for final judgement pending the
daughter's progress or medical reports; alternatively he may grant minimal
access to the daughter, which will not be the 50/50 they are hoping for, and
which was the actual question asked, but it will be better than nothing.
Vertex; I didn't follow up the interpretation of this because it didn't appear
to find much favor on the list by virtue of it being modern. Consequently, I
mentioned it because it seemed relevant, but I did not pursue because of the
seemingly lack of interest in its implications and left it to those who may
use it to draw their own conclusions. I don't feel comfortable giving chapter
and verse about the Vertex on this list, a) because I can't quote various
tombs of reference, and b) because it is obviously modern and may incur the
wrath of those who wish to keep the list to traditional methods. Purely in
response to your query, though, I will just say that I use the Vertex because
it has had relevance in the majority of my own interpretations, not as being
indicative of a course of action, but purely as indicative of a major event or
development in the question and usually giving some indication of timing or
date. This is my own usage because (touch wood!) it seems to have worked for
me in the past. Primarily, I guess, I use it to define timing if it coincides
with the main pattern in the chart or links to any relevant cusp or
significator. In this instance the Vertex is situated in the turned 4th house,
indicating (to me) that a fairly important event is imminent - OK we know
that, the decision of the Court, but it shows to me that the chart is linking
with the question - it is 2 degs away from the cusp, I would therefore have
said within 2days - 2 weeks; what influence? well Saturn is moving towards it
in his retrograde motion, out of the turned 1st house, making Saturn a
cosignificator of the daughter, I would therefore have felt that this final
event will not be entirely to the daughter's pleasing, Saturn being a malefic,
especially being in Aries, not at all happy, altho the retrograde motion may
make me wonder if there could be a deferrment, but this is my reaction, not
traditional, admittedly. Traditionally speaking, Saturn in the first house and
retrograde all combines to indicate something with which the person concerned
will be decidely unhappy, and can also show unwholesome and unhealthy
conditions. Now, all this is approaching the Vertex, sitting in the turned 4th
- consequently, I would say the end of the matter will not be a pleasing
verdict for the daughter, but it may reflect her current condition.
Sorry about the GMT - you were absolutely right, I meant BST.
I take what you mean about the question being non-productive, but very often
what is going to happen is the main relevance to people, don't you find? It is
the not knowing which is difficult to cope with and, sometimes, even if there
is nothing a person can do about it, to be aware of the most likely outcome is
sometimes helpful, and then any other details appertaining to the situation
can be weighed up and maybe useful either in attitude or action.
For example, there are many illustrations in CA which indicate questions about
whether the querent will marry, from who it may be to how much the dowry will
amount to. These are purely points of curiosity or interest, a desire to know,
not born out of a direct question as to 'what must I do to find a marriage
partner'. So, altho I agree with what you say, I would still tend to feel that
there is a purpose to be served with this type of enquiry. I guess we all want
to know what is round the corner, whether we can do anything about it or not.
However, you are certainly helping me to be more selective/particular regarding
questions, rather than be at every beck and call, so thanks for your direction
and responses, they are much appreciated.
Another point for this particular question, it does seem a very good one for
the list, and if it gives any help to the querent and her daughter, then that
is an additional bonus. It could definitely be instructive from a horary point
of practise, if everyone had an input, even if it was only to say why they
wouldn't feel interpretation was wise.
If you're going away for an autumnal hols, have a good one!
Regards
Angela
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
jeanneg@icon.net (Jeanne Garner) |
Date: | Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:50:03 -0700 |
Status: U
Hi, Angela, David & all,
>notable by its repeated lack of success! It does make you wonder doesn't
it? >Is it just totally impossible to 'work' with such energies? do 'such
energies' >just not exist in the first place? Or is there some cosmic arm of
the law >which says 'thou shalt not'?
I think it has to be in the natal chart to begin with--and I know I'm not
alone in that opinion. Some years back I ran across some folks who enter
sweepstakes a lot, and like any good drug, they got me hooked too--but never
mind about that. What was interesting were the charts of the ones who
consistantly win: lots of 5th and 9th house emphasis, and, when I could get
them to note entry dates, I noticed harmonious aspects with
transit-to-transit planets mostly. They seem to have an innate sense of
timing (could that be what we call "luck?") when it comes to entering,
because not a one of them knew anything about astrology. One has a kite
formation involving the 11th, 9th, and 5th: this woman hasn't worked for
years, and drives nice cars, goes on lovely vacations (cruises, etc.), and
uses great computers. She wins a LOT.
>We are talking about influencing an energy flow here, or at least the
>possibility of it, what is so unethical about that? I don't know the answer;
Angela, I think you have a great point in this. The universe is incredibly
bountiful, and I think there's enough prosperity to go around without
depriving anyone--unless someone's deliberately trying to swindle someone
out of something, and in honest speculation, that is not the case.
Jeanne
==-* My stars!
| Thread: |
Good Question for the list:& Introduction {Ginger K.} |
| From: |
gingerk7@juno.com (ALICE [GINGER] M. KENNISON) |
Date: | Thu, 26 Sep 1996 23:07:22 -0700 |
Hello, Deb,
I am Ginger, Shanna's "GRANDMOTHER" who sent the original Question
concerning custody of Cheyenne.
Because of Shanna's lack of knowledge of procedures, this court date on
Sept. 30 is similar to the procedure we went through but without a
lawyer. So this hearing is ONLY one of about 3-4 that are held before
the judge. There will be a temporary custody paper involved for now,
while a investigation is held, where all her family members and any
witnesses will go before a court councilor who discusses everything with
each one who wants to respond and testify. This is all taken down almost
word for word, from both sides of the family's and witnesses, papers are
prepared from all this investigation, then it is taken back before the
judge and either a decision is made or it's taken to trial. But, after
this first hearing, when Shanna goes back in 3 days, is when they set up
for her to pay some support and ALSO Visitation Rights set up. So We are
not stuck with such a short period of time as I original thought from
what Shanna said. Since she has a lawyer and Baby' father has his MOMMY
paying for his lawyer , the case will not take 6 months like it does when
people do all the paper work themselves without aid of a lawyer. So I
would say that the Ascendant of that chart being as it was is perhaps
right in the fact that it's too soon for an answer. The thing I worry
about most is Shanna is to much of a door mat, if you know what I mean,
and she let's people walk over her and she'e let his entire family walk
on her and treat her like dirt, as she was hoping for acceptance with
the family, because she cared so much for this mommy's. boy. We as a
family have been trying to point out to her things regarding this
relationship and how he was doing her, but she always defended the creep.
She lets her heart rule instead of her brain, and that's not always the
smartest way, as you know. Thank you for your assistance. I will use
these replys from you all to try to help me learn and understand some of
the processes of Horary. I feel better just knowing now that we as a
family unit have a chance to help her fight for custody of her child. I
haven't seen the child myself but around 4-5 times since her birth, but
you should see her, she is absolutely a born movie star. Even her birth
picture shows her outstanding beauty. Her mother is a very beautiful
young lady and I must admit, the father is an extremely hansom male
person.
How ever, I know he's the father of my great grand daughter, but I've
never picked up good vibes from him long as I've known him. I don't like
him as I knew he was doing Shanna wrong and treating her badly. We have
all been telling her he was going to try and take that child with the aid
of his mother, and now it's happening. She does not deserve this.
Thank You,
GINGER K.
On 26 Sep 96 18:20:18 EDT Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM>
writes:
>Angela, you write:
>
>"Deb, there are many strictures against judgement in this chart, in
>view of our
>
>recent exchanges, is this one you would have deferred from?"
>
>I don't have all the information on the original email because my
>computer
>crashed as I was reading it and when I restarted it that, and some
>other
>messages were missing. But I think I read most of it, or at least
>enough to make
>a few comments.
>
>Reading through your interpretation of your judgement I found myself
>agreeing
>with your use of the symbolism BUT, when I drew up the chart myself
>from the
>data you gave (26 Set 1996; GMT 9.37am; 52N25, 1W31) I got a whole
>different
>chart, with the ascendant at 10 degrees 21 Scorpio, which makes the
>Baby (5th
>from 5th) ruled by the Moon. The chart you describe is correct for
>8.37 am GMT,
>so perhaps you meant 9.37 am BST??
>
>Presuming your chart is correct and the data was wrong, the only
>'consideration
>before judgement' (note I never use the word stricture which is a
>modern term)
>that would have really concerned me is the late ascendant, and the
>issue that
>this would have brought to my mind is that it is all too late to make
>any
>difference. I must admit that this morning when I read the post I was
>full of
>sympathy for the mother and the daughter but wondered what purpose
>horary could
>serve in this matter. The question was 'will we win the case?', not
>'is there
>anything we can do to influence this matter and create a positive
>outcome'
>(which there obviously isn't at this stage), nor 'should I attend the
>court and
>give evidence' --- just: 'tell me what will happen'. Why? What
>purpose will it
>serve? The matter goes to court within days and then the querent will
>have her
>answer anyway. Perhaps the time to ask an appropriate horary is after
>that -
>'now that my daughter has maintained her rights is there anything she
>can do to
>make the situation with the father less stressful?' or 'now that the
>father has
>won the case, would we benefit by pursuing this matter further or
>appealing?'
>That kind of question allows horary to be put to use whereas 'tell me
>what will
>happen?' charts, where they involve issues that are too far down the
>road to be
>manipulated and are about to resolve themselves anyway, reduce it to a
>guessing
>game. So maybe, that's what the late ascendant was suggesting.
>
>(To the lady that posted the original email - I hope I don't seem
>insensitive,
>as I really do sympathise with your situation and hope that things go
>well for
>you, your daughter and the baby, but maybe we could help in a more
>positive way
>if we don't restrict ourselves to trying to anticipate what the court
>will
>decide).
>
>Bearing in mind the late ascendant, I think that your judgement of the
>chart
>made sense, and I tend to go along with all you say. Only 2 points
>that I want
>to query: Firstly where you say:
>
>"However, as the Moon is VOC in Pisces, this could mean that there is
>something
>
>to be gleaned from it all."
>
>I don't understand that remark, or why the Moon VOC in Pisces would
>suggest it.
>
>
>The second point is where you mention the vertex. It must have SOME
>meaning, if
>it doesn't it seems a little pointless mentioning it at all. I really
>am dumb
>on what it is or what it is supposed to mean, and no-one seems to be
>offering
>any suggestions. Is it a real astronomical 'thing'? Am I right in
>presuming
>that it is a nebulous area - I don't know why I think that - which
>could imply
>confusion and lack of clarity, or is it just a nebulous area to me
>because I
>don't understand it at all. I know that a lot of people do use it so
>someone
>out there must know what it is actually supposed to be. I wouldn't
>begin to
>contemplate its meaning before I understood its nature and unless both
>those
>things are understood I wonder why we should give it any attention at
>all?
>
>I'm going away in a couple of days and won't be back until the end of
>October,
>so I may have to make this my last post for a while. But I won't ask
>Carol to
>unsubscribe me until Sunday, so that I can still lurk in the
>background for a
>while and see if anyone has anymore to offer on that.
>
>By the way, I enjoyed your reply to David re astrology & money. I
>don't think
>that there is any reason why we shouldn't use astrology to enrich our
>lives in
>any sense of the word - AS LONG, as we don't try to enrich our bank
>account at
>the expense of anything else, and manage to maintain a balanced
>approach to all
>experiences. But you sum up my feelings when you say that you don't
>think it is
>as unethical as unlikely. Like Dr Gonaz said, his good results
>concured with
>times when he had favourable transits and was feeling in balance with
>the
>cosmos. We can't recreate those conditions artificially which is why I
>doubt
>he'll ever be able to perfect his guaranteed method for success. To do
>so, you
>would have to take out of the equation the part of astrology that
>utilises our
>living connection with the universe via the soul. Yet we all know
>that there
>are times when we are feeling good, and our judgement is sound, and
>our
>astrology works well, and other times when we are out of balance and
>our
>judgement as astrologers suffers as a result. So if our own personal
>awareness
>wasn't relevant, how could that be?
>
>In all of this I am wondering what's happened to Mark, who started the
>whole
>thing off and has now gone very quiet. Are you not feeling well Mark,
>or are you
>just too busy trying to learn all those new techniques on how to make
>yourself
>rich quick??
>
>TTFN
>
>Deb
>
>
>
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
allen edwall <76401.275@CompuServe.COM> |
Date: | Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:49:59 -0700 |
>> Astrology is one of the closest forms of that working, why should it be wrong
to apply it to our lives across the board? No, I do not think it is unethical -
just impossible, blast it!!
In order to gain in the financial markets means that someone has to take a trade
opposite yours and thus lose on that trade while you gain on it. To use
astrology to gain advantage over another is not the right use of astrology.
Using astrology to help people is valid, using it to personally gain advantage
over or to make oneself or another gain power, control, money or anything else
over another is not valid.
Allen
| Thread: |
Good Question for the list:& Introduction {Ginger K.} |
| From: |
Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> |
Date: | Thu, 26 Sep 1996 15:21:00 -0700 |
Status: U
Angela, you write:
"Deb, there are many strictures against judgement in this chart, in view of our
recent exchanges, is this one you would have deferred from?"
I don't have all the information on the original email because my computer
crashed as I was reading it and when I restarted it that, and some other
messages were missing. But I think I read most of it, or at least enough to make
a few comments.
Reading through your interpretation of your judgement I found myself agreeing
with your use of the symbolism BUT, when I drew up the chart myself from the
data you gave (26 Set 1996; GMT 9.37am; 52N25, 1W31) I got a whole different
chart, with the ascendant at 10 degrees 21 Scorpio, which makes the Baby (5th
from 5th) ruled by the Moon. The chart you describe is correct for 8.37 am GMT,
so perhaps you meant 9.37 am BST??
Presuming your chart is correct and the data was wrong, the only 'consideration
before judgement' (note I never use the word stricture which is a modern term)
that would have really concerned me is the late ascendant, and the issue that
this would have brought to my mind is that it is all too late to make any
difference. I must admit that this morning when I read the post I was full of
sympathy for the mother and the daughter but wondered what purpose horary could
serve in this matter. The question was 'will we win the case?', not 'is there
anything we can do to influence this matter and create a positive outcome'
(which there obviously isn't at this stage), nor 'should I attend the court and
give evidence' --- just: 'tell me what will happen'. Why? What purpose will it
serve? The matter goes to court within days and then the querent will have her
answer anyway. Perhaps the time to ask an appropriate horary is after that -
'now that my daughter has maintained her rights is there anything she can do to
make the situation with the father less stressful?' or 'now that the father has
won the case, would we benefit by pursuing this matter further or appealing?'
That kind of question allows horary to be put to use whereas 'tell me what will
happen?' charts, where they involve issues that are too far down the road to be
manipulated and are about to resolve themselves anyway, reduce it to a guessing
game. So maybe, that's what the late ascendant was suggesting.
(To the lady that posted the original email - I hope I don't seem insensitive,
as I really do sympathise with your situation and hope that things go well for
you, your daughter and the baby, but maybe we could help in a more positive way
if we don't restrict ourselves to trying to anticipate what the court will
decide).
Bearing in mind the late ascendant, I think that your judgement of the chart
made sense, and I tend to go along with all you say. Only 2 points that I want
to query: Firstly where you say:
"However, as the Moon is VOC in Pisces, this could mean that there is something
to be gleaned from it all."
I don't understand that remark, or why the Moon VOC in Pisces would suggest it.
The second point is where you mention the vertex. It must have SOME meaning, if
it doesn't it seems a little pointless mentioning it at all. I really am dumb
on what it is or what it is supposed to mean, and no-one seems to be offering
any suggestions. Is it a real astronomical 'thing'? Am I right in presuming
that it is a nebulous area - I don't know why I think that - which could imply
confusion and lack of clarity, or is it just a nebulous area to me because I
don't understand it at all. I know that a lot of people do use it so someone
out there must know what it is actually supposed to be. I wouldn't begin to
contemplate its meaning before I understood its nature and unless both those
things are understood I wonder why we should give it any attention at all?
I'm going away in a couple of days and won't be back until the end of October,
so I may have to make this my last post for a while. But I won't ask Carol to
unsubscribe me until Sunday, so that I can still lurk in the background for a
while and see if anyone has anymore to offer on that.
By the way, I enjoyed your reply to David re astrology & money. I don't think
that there is any reason why we shouldn't use astrology to enrich our lives in
any sense of the word - AS LONG, as we don't try to enrich our bank account at
the expense of anything else, and manage to maintain a balanced approach to all
experiences. But you sum up my feelings when you say that you don't think it is
as unethical as unlikely. Like Dr Gonaz said, his good results concured with
times when he had favourable transits and was feeling in balance with the
cosmos. We can't recreate those conditions artificially which is why I doubt
he'll ever be able to perfect his guaranteed method for success. To do so, you
would have to take out of the equation the part of astrology that utilises our
living connection with the universe via the soul. Yet we all know that there
are times when we are feeling good, and our judgement is sound, and our
astrology works well, and other times when we are out of balance and our
judgement as astrologers suffers as a result. So if our own personal awareness
wasn't relevant, how could that be?
In all of this I am wondering what's happened to Mark, who started the whole
thing off and has now gone very quiet. Are you not feeling well Mark, or are you
just too busy trying to learn all those new techniques on how to make yourself
rich quick??
TTFN
Deb
| Thread: |
Astronauts |
| From: |
sueward@easynet.co.uk |
Date: | Thu, 26 Sep 1996 09:55:30 -0700 |
All
I'm in the beginning stages of a study of the nativities of astronauts using
the traditional method. I wonder if anyone has any information they might
share with me. I particularly want to know who made up which crew and
whether they were military, scientists or engineers. Of course, any good
birth data would be helpful although I have 12.
I think that it might be better to deal with this off-list, so if you are
willing and able to help perhaps you'd contact me privately.
Thanks in advance.
Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com
| Thread: |
X |
| From: |
tees.reitsma@astronet.idn.nl (Tees Reitsma) |
Date: | Thu, 26 Sep 1996 06:02:39 -0700 |
subscribe
--- Alice4Mac 2.4.4 E T2
---
| Thread: |
Good Question for the list:& Introduction {Ginger K.} |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Thu, 26 Sep 1996 02:46:24 -0700 |
I am a little confused with this chart as to location of Court hearing, and
also the time thereof. Consequently, I drew up a chart for the time I
understood the query, that being 26 Set 1996; GMT 9.37am; 52N25, 1W31.
>From that chart I would have said it does not look particularly hopeful; the
asc is way too late, indeed within 2' of the next sign, which is either too
late in one sense or much too early in another, and the asc is also in the via
combusta - not good omens. However, the asc will indicate the Querent, in this
case the Mother, and being in the via combusta can show someone who is not in
control of the circumstances, which, in this case, obviously the mother is
not. Daughter, Shanna, is signified by the 5th house of Pisces, therefore
ruled by Jupiter. Jupiter is not in a good position and won't be until Feb
1998; the baby (Chyan) is the radical 9th (5th from 5th), thus ruled by
Mercury which is static in its own sign of Virgo in the radical 11th, turned
7th being the houseof Shanna's partner and the baby's father. Consequently I
would have said this implies the baby will remain with her father.
The turned sixth house of Shanna's health is ruled by the Sun which is
applying by square to Jupiter (Shanna), thus indicating there could be
continued health problems for Shanna, although the good news is the baby looks
to be in a good and strong condition.Maybe Shanna's health condition will
influence the Judge's decision.
At best, I would say the fact that the asc is only 2' away from the next sign
may imply that judgement will be deferred.
Part of the mother is at 2 degrees Gemini which is partile conjunct the (wait
for it!) Vertex. (In the light of recent discussions I am not going to even
attempt an interpretation of that, I merely mention it in passing!!)
POF is inconjunct Mercury, being both Shanna's partner, baby, and
communication. This, again, I feel indicates not the best of news received,
but maybe there will be something to work with.
Finally, in the radical chart, Saturn rules the 4th house, end of the matter,
and Saturn is not a happy chappy at the present time. Consequently, I think
there will be severe restrictions still applying at the end of day, and it
will not be totally as Shanna and her mother would hope, there is a mutually
applying opposition between Sun and Saturn, Sun ruling radical 10th house of
Judges, and Saturn ruling 4th house end of matter. I therefore do not feel
that there will be a totally positive ruling for Shanna, but there may be some
scope whereby she can work to improve the issue in time.
Moon is also VOC, unless you include the outer planets (Neptune); indicating
nothing can be done, as implied by the late asc. Jupiter is intercepted, in a
fateful degree and partile conjunct fixed star Facies, which does not augur
well being a mix of Sun and Mars, there does appear to be the possibility of
some anger around Shanna, and there certainly does not appear to be anything
she can do to constructively change the situation at the present time.
However, as the Moon is VOC in Pisces, this could mean that there is something
to be gleaned from it all.
At the time of this chart the Moon is moving towards an eclipse in radical
5th house, turned 1st, house representing Shanna, Moon being co-significator
of both Shanna's mother (Quesitor) and Shanna's baby, Chyan. I am not too
clued up on the implication of eclipses, so will hand over to those who are.
Deb, there are many strictures against judgement in this chart, in view of our
recent exchanges, is this one you would have deferred from?
Regards
Angela
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Thu, 26 Sep 1996 01:23:36 -0700 |
Hi David, I read your post with interest, it seems that through the ages we
have been trying to find a way of using astrology to influence finances ....
notable by its repeated lack of success! It does make you wonder doesn't it?
Is it just totally impossible to 'work' with such energies? do 'such energies'
just not exist in the first place? Or is there some cosmic arm of the law
which says 'thou shalt not'?
However, in relation to this last question, and also the point of ethics,
before answering that directly, perhaps it would be more relevant to look at
why we feel motivated to ask the question in the first place. Do you think it
is purely out of ingrained Christian principles that to be poor is 'holy', or
to use something for personal gain is 'sinful'(unless, of course you are the
Church), money is 'dirty'(unless you've got loads of it)? I know this is a
feeling common to the majority of folk, including myself, but I often question,
why? There seems no commonsense answer other than the ethics that society, out
of religion, has seen fit to implement.
We are talking about influencing an energy flow here, or at least the
possibility of it, what is so unethical about that? I don't know the answer;
and I am as apprehensive as the next person; but I am also extremely wary
about being subliminally restricted by a set of rules and principles emanating
from centuries of autocratic self-servers putting the rank and file through
inumerable guilt-trips in the name of so-called religion.
I find astrology utterly fascinating, not the least so because of incidents
such as Abbe's, which illustrate that even then, when the traditional roots of
our practise were more closely adhered to, no more success was achieved than
today in linking into true prediction regarding material matters (yes, I will
read TA, Deb, as soon as I get home tonight!), but if we are all of the same
energy fields, we should be able to, that is what it is all about, surely,
from healing, to divination, to magic - working with the energies, the ethics
of the case are whether our acts are intentionally injurous to the whole.
Astrology is one of the closest forms of that working, why should it be wrong
to apply it to our lives across the board? No, I do not think it is unethical
- just impossible, blast it!!
Regards
Angela
| Thread: |
Horserace |
| From: |
Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> |
Date: | Wed, 25 Sep 1996 20:38:38 -0700 |
Andy, you write
>
The 1.45 presented the Moon in tighter conjunction to Saturn and within 3
degrees of the Ascendant. However, no runner was suggested by this aspect.
............ The neglected Moon/Saturn/Ascendant/Pisces
aspect came into play as the close finish was decided by a photograph which
took the judge a longer time than usual to announce. The jockey s surname
was Hide, which is not unconnected with the Scorpio/Pisces aspects.
>
Surely, more connected with the Moon-Saturn conjunction don't you think?
Delay = Saturn, Photograph = Moon, Hide (Leather) = Saturn
Just a thought,
Deb
| Thread: |
Where is the list |
| From: |
Manon Richard <carmen@dds.nl> |
Date: | Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:00:38 -0700 |
Could you please check whether I'm still subscribed?
I didn't receive any mail from the list for quite some time.
Maybe the list is low in contributions.
In that case, please ignore this note.
However, if I am unsubscribed for some deep dark mysterious reason, could you please subscribe me again?
Kind regards,
Manon
carmen@dds.nl
| Thread: |
Vaporization |
| From: |
"Gray,AL,Andy,NAI83,GRAYAL M" <GRAYAL@boat.bt.com> |
Date: | Wed, 25 Sep 1996 03:29:39 -0700 |
Status: U
Hello Sue
>Coley has a section on gambling. A group of us tried on a weekly basis some
>years ago, but I can't say that we did very well. Any wins never amounted
to
>much or could be claimed to be achieved other than by chance. The races
with
>few runners are easier to work on because there are fewer options. As I
>recall the best results came from matching the horses' names to the
astrology.
The following is a quote from the last issue (1995) of our society rag,
Jupiter Rising. The context was a day at the races, charts had been drawn
for the main races (11th Nov 1994, Huntingdon, UK). The author was David
Bird.
The 12.45 had no planets on any angle, nor any aspect becoming exact at that
time or shortly afterward. I therefore concentrated on the major aspects
regardless of their position within the chart, which were Sun, Jupiter and
Pluto within a 9 degree orb in Scorpio, and the Moon conjunct Saturn in
Pisces (1st house). Examinations of the chart, racing form and the betting
market presented one real selection, the odds-on favourite DARK SILHOUETTE
(although this horse had never won a race), suggested by the planets in
Scorpio (DARK) and Pisces (SILHOUETTE). This horse duly won and returned a
modest profit.
The second race at 1.15 again had no placement on an angle, or significant
planetary aspect becoming exact at that time. The Sun, which I take in
certain circumstances to represent the favourite, squared the ascendant, and
this unfavourable aspect reflected the odds-on JURA finishing a poor 4th.
Even with hindsight I cannot find a reasonable astrological explanation for
the winner WAMDHA, and after some years of study, I conclude that some
charts will not highlight a winner and so such races should be left alone.
The 1.45 presented the Moon in tighter conjunction to Saturn and within 3
degrees of the Ascendant. However, no runner was suggested by this aspect.
The ascendant (Pisces) and the Midheaven (Sagittarius) are both ruled by
Jupiter. This planet lay between the Sun and Pluto and was therefore
powerfully placed. The one horse s name suggested by this aspect was JUMBEAU
and this horse, with jockey in red and sagittarian maroon silks, duly bought
home the bacon at odds of 5/1. The neglected Moon/Saturn/Ascendant/Pisces
aspect came into play as the close finish was decided by a photograph which
took the judge a longer time than usual to announce. The jockey s surname
was Hide, which is not unconnected with the Scorpio/Pisces aspects.
Regards
Andy
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
David Plant <106142.2566@compuserve.com> |
Date: | Wed, 25 Sep 1996 04:05:50 -0700 |
Status: U
I once spent hours electing what looked like the perfect chart within the
available time range for entering a get-rich-quick competition. I even got
up hideously early on the appointed day to make sure I dropped my entry
into the postbox in the hour of Jupiter at a moment when the Moon was
exactly trine natal Fortuna (or something like that -- can't remember the
exact details). That was in about 1989. I'm still waiting to hear that I've
won...
Sorry to be a history bore but I'm reminded of a story about Louis XIV of
France who sent the Abbe Pregnani on a delicate diplomatic mission to
Charles II of England. The Abbe was reputed to be one of the wisest
astrologers in all Europe and King Louis was hoping to influence Charles
through his astral philosophy. But it all went horribly wrong when he
failed to pick a single winner for Charles at Newmarket races, which
provoked a diplomatic incident and led to the poor old Abbe being hastily
recalled to France in disgrace.
One further point -- is there an ethical question here? Even if it's
possible, is it acceptable for astrologers to use this 'divine inspiration'
for feathering their own nests or is it tantamount to 'insider trading'?
David
| Thread: |
Vaporization |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Wed, 25 Sep 1996 07:46:34 -0700 |
Status: U
Anne,
So what is the check list? Or do we have to buy the book?
Regards
Angela
| Thread: |
Vaporization |
| From: |
spica@world.net |
Date: | Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:41:31 -0700 |
Re Winning the Lottery
In Lois Rodden's "Money and how to make it from astrology" she has a 10 point
checklist to see if you have a lucky chart. If you get less than 6 out of 10 you stop buying
tickets. The results seemed to correlate with the perceived luckiness (or not) of our
family so I recommended it to a friend. She did the charts of her family and friends,
picked 3 couples who all scored 9 or 10 out of 10 and formed a syndicate. The first
week they won about $400 per couple.
They haven't said whether they have continued with the system.
Good Luck
Anne (7 out of 10)
Anne Elliott
Spica Publications
| Thread: |
Good Question for the list:& Introduction {Ginger K.} |
| From: |
gingerk7@juno.com (ALICE [GINGER] M. KENNISON) |
Date: | Wed, 25 Sep 1996 02:30:22 -0700 |
Status: U
To: williman_lilly@halcyon.com
Subject: Good Question for the list:& Introduction {Ginger K.}
Message-ID: 19960925.012102.18375.1. GingerK7@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno
1.15
From: gingerk7@juno.com (ALICE [GINGER] M. KENNISON) Date: Wed, 25 Sep
1996 04:29:02 EDT
From: gingerk7@juno.com (ALICE [GINGER] M. KENNISON)
((( 3nd sending))) others returned
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 02:10:28 EDT
Sorry for the long post, I though I needed to explain the circumstances
of this question.
Hello to all you from Ginger K.,
I am a brand new member of the list. Dr. Tamaz told me about WilliamLilly
List, and I joined it to get more Astrology knowledge and learningerience
with Horary Astrology,although I'm considered a advanced student of
Astrology. Dr. Tamez andIare friends and I told him about my
granddaughters experience with her2nd baby daughter who was born 5/22/96.
She (Shanna) was living with the baby's father (Rick) up until Father's
Day when they had a big fight and split. He went back home with his
"Mommy" (only son & spoiled)He is 22 now and Shanna is 21 in November.
They were sharing custody of the child since Shanna was back working
(dancing) so as to support herself, plus he had started a class she
signed up for while pregnant, So AS TheyAgreed he took the baby home with
him to his mothers and she was helping him with
the child(1st grandchild). His mother started calling the punches
concerning the child, and there was dispute between them on and off
regarding Shanna seeing the child. The times got less frequent and the
father had been bringing the child over at her Apt. and he also spending
the night with her about once a week.Supposedly they were still seeing
one another and talked that sometime in the future they would get
back together. She has been totally "in love" with this little weasel
and he treats her badly and calls all the punches. Since Father's day
everything has dwindled to sometime 2 weeks before he would let Shanna
see the baby. Now this! I think she's seen the light to his plot and the
situation and hired a lawyer to try to keep custody at least 50/50 with
the father due to her plight. He wants total custody and forget she is
the childs mother. She has an older child of which my husband and I have
had legal guardianship since she was 6 months old and she's now 2 & 1/2
years old.
Shanna signed papers over for this to take place mainly due to her age
and lack of maturity and her not able to take adequate care of the child
and work. She visits with and spends time with Wynnona rather often.
Wynnona was abused by her father before she was 6 months. Her father
(different guy) did drugs and his youth and lack of knowledge of babies
and taking care of her ended with bruises on the child and sickness and
inability of the child to sleep will and her waking up screaming.
Shanna went back to work and was supporting them all and didn't believe
at first he was abusing Wynnona. She then split with the father
and wasn't able to handle things working and careing for the child. My
husband and I talk to her about letting us take the child as it wasn't
good for her to be dragged around from sitter to sitter. she needed some
stability. So due to problems with the child's father, we got legal
custody. Now both Shanna and Wynnona's father would have to abide by
circumstance of the courts rule before either can get her. Shanna's had
one circumstance after another keeping her from going through the legal
hassle of getting Wynnona back, although she visits with and she stays
with the child either here some or takes her to her place some. The child
remains very stable, cared for and feels much more secure with my husband
and I, and all circumstances are better for her here then going home with
her mom. That's another reason Shanna hasn't filed to get Wynnona back up
to this point. But she knows the child is here and she is not totally
separated from the child. Now, her 2nd child (infant) is possibly going
to be taken totally from her plus of course she's lost the relationship
with the father. She has straightened up her life and got her self off
the drugs that she did get involved with for a short while after
Wynnona's birth. She is still unstable to a degree but working toward
getting a career other thandancing and being a mother for her two girls.
But Rick with
his mother backing and pushing him and (paying) is wanting to totally
take Baby Chyann away from her. The court date on the 30 of September
is not the end of the matter, she says there is another hearing of some
type for 3 days later 10/03/96. The area here is San Diego Ca. and I
would assume the question time could be the time dated on this post or
either the time of my first inquiry with Dr. Tamez. (which I have
included in this post.
................................
The Question again is will she (Shanna) get at least 50/50 custody of
herbaby, or will the father get the total custody with his mother backing
him?
.................................
<SNIP> referral from Dr. Tamez:
I'm glad you are going to heed my advise on the Shanna legal hassle next
week. I think you will feel better if you do all what is reasonably
within your reach to help her along, although the results may be
different from what she expects because of that tight square from
transiting mercury of the trial's date to her natal Moon ruler of her
Cusp 5 of children...Yet
the Eclipse trians her Leo Saturn over your sun/Nadir/Pluto, and
something maybe gained after all. This is an interesting case for the
LillyList you know....Maybe you still have time to post a query on that
trial over there and see what we get from all these Traditional
Astrologers.
From: gpena@sauce.cmact.com (DR GONZALO PENA TAMEZ)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><
TIME OF ORIGINAL QUESTION.(FIRST TIME ASKED)
From: GingerK7
To: gpena@sauce.cmact.com
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:31:08 PST
<><><><><><><><><><><
Will she still have at least 50/50 custody of the child or will Rick and
his"mommy" get to keep the hild. Chyann should be able to maintain
relationships with both sides of her family. Wynnona does.
<SNIP>
I told you that Shanna's baby's father" Rick" got a restraining order
against Shanna, and she can't go anywhere near his house or work or even
see her own baby. This took place after Shanna and her mom "Kitty" went
over to his house, supposedly when he (Rick) wasn't home, as Kitty wanted
to see the baby before she went back to Anza. She has only seen the child
twice. Apparently his mother wouldn't open the door.
<snip>
So the following monday after that Sunday, Shanna got served with a
legal restraining order. As a onsequence she has employed a lawyer So she
doesn't lose custody of Chyann. This is Wynnona's baby sister that she
has only seen maybe 4 times. Now a court date has been set for
September 30, 96. I'm not sure of the time, Shanna didn't tell me that.
She has ask me to come to court with her and she also wants me to write a
decoration proclaiming that if she ask for Wynnona back now that I would
let her take her back.
<snip>
If I have to go under oath, with a lawyer from the other side, he is
going to question me in such a way, that I would have to admit, that I
didn't think that Shanna should have comple te custody of the child, she
needs help. She can't handle full time child care, day in and day out,
much less also attend school and work to. She can not do it. I didn't
think that she was organized enough to go to classes and handle it
andwork to. That was confirmed, when she had to drop out temporally but
it was mainly due to health problems generated from the pregnancy, and
all her activity of going back to work so quickly after the pregnancy
doing dancing. She had to miss to much time from classes because of it.
Now, she has to wait until January to start all over again. She did do
pretty good up until her health started to suffer.That surprised me. She
feels it very important that I go, and apparently her lawyer to, as I
was listed as a licensed Foster parent with the county.
<><><><><<>><><>>><>
If you have any questions of me in regard to this please e-mail me.
Since this is a personal matter, may it will help me understand the
mechanics of Horay better.
Thank you very much for helping me understand this.
Best Regards,
Ginger K. Gingerk7@juno.com
| Thread: |
Lotteries & gambling |
| From: |
Deborah Houlding <101572.1131@CompuServe.COM> |
Date: | Tue, 24 Sep 1996 21:02:29 -0700 |
Dear Ang (& Mark),
>re Lottery posting: (you're taking me too seriously, y'knows) '.... luck is
important to me ...." ? Hmmmm, no more than anyone else. Like you, I don't
exactly have the golden touch - in fact if I so much as watch a person play
the 'one-armed bandit' machines, they lose!! But I'd love to find out if there
is an influencing system one could work with.
>
Now I'm not one to plug the Traditional Astrologer Magazine as you know, but
just want to mention that there is a 5 page horary feature in the current issue
which covers speculative investments, gambling and lotteries from the
traditional perspective and discusses the debate over 2nd house v. 5th house
rulership. The most important thing is never to gamble on a horary or election
chart if your nativity implies dismal failure. The seed of success has to lie
in the nativity first.
The other text book that I get asked for a lot is Sepharial's SILVER KEY which
is supposed to be a good guide to how to win on the horses, but I haven't
studied it myself.
Personally I don't think there is a magical system waiting to be discovered,
mainly because we have a limited perception of what 'luck' and real opportunity
is all about. I once predicted to a client that this certain month was going to
be full of financial gain because he had really strong Jupiter contacts with
trines all over the place in his nativity. He later complained that he'd had a
lousy month financially and quite a challenging month all-round. But some of
those experiences he found difficult really opened his mind and changed his
attitudes and a lot of problems were resolved for him AND he got free of a very
restrictive relationship. Money wasn't an issue in his life anyway, since he was
basically a wealthy man. The experience was about growth and freedom and I'd
missed that by looking at it through the materialistic viewpoint that he'd
suggested.
As for horary, are the heavens really going to 'move us' and open up their
secrets to us for a question on how to get more money, if its not a matter of
deep concern and necessity? We can have a lot of fun with horary, but then we
shouldn't be surprised if it has a lot of fun with us.
Dennis Elwell once had a dig at horary astrologers at a public lecture I
attended when he ridiculed us by saying 'if they are so enlightened, and able to
predict the future - how come they're not all driving around in Rolls Royces?'.
(Big audience laughter). My response was that maybe we are not all so
unenlighted that we assume that success in astrology is reflected by the money
in our bank account. There may be some very wealthy horary astrologers about
(though I don't know any myself), but if there are I doubt their wealth came to
them through their understanding of astrology.
(Of course, if anyone does manage to crack it in the end, I'll gladly pay for
the insight!)
Love Deb.
| Thread: |
Mercury retro |
| From: |
retep@bahnhof.se (Peter) |
Date: | Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:39:43 -0700 |
HELLO ALL
I am born with 5 retro planets, including mercury.
And in my experience mercurys stations haven4t
indicated much obstacles.
I4ve studied astrology since 1975.
As this is in some conflict to astrological theory,
I wonder if there are others who have observed
the same thing ?
I4m born 7 mars 1954 16.41 in Uppsala, Sweden
(Lat 59N52 Long 17E38)
Peter
___________________________________
THE BEST WAY TO PREDICT THE FUTURE
IS TO CREATE IT
__________________________________
X-cs:
From: Self <cwiggers>
To: , @LILLY.PML, motive@juno.com (Lee Miller)
Subject: Re: copy of posts, TA and gossip!
Reply-to: cwiggers@halcyon.com
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:58:06 +8
Lee, I have forwarded the posts to you and hope you received them.
On another note I have finished up the guestbook at the website and
thought you might like to go take a look and leave a comment
(something printable mind you!)
The latest news bits are that the "Traditional Astrologer Magazine"
is out and it looks great as always, Deborah has done another fine
job of it. I already told her the flyer inside the magazine was a
little scary because of that strange womans picture, And Anne Elliott
confirmed that she really does look like that. Anyway after my
comment to Deb she did say something about amazing things she could
do with ice skates and broomsticks but that is for another mailing
list I think. All kidding aside the mag. is worth the wait, glad I
got a supply.
Sorry about your mouce going to cheese heaven, meanwhile my mouse
wrist seems to be healing after all the great tips.
Love & Light
Carol
> To: cwiggers@halcyon.com
> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:50:16 PST
> Subject: Re: copy of posts
> From: motive@juno.com (Lee Miller)
> Carol
>
> I missed the lottery postings Angela was talking about, could I
> please have a copy? I apologize for bothering you with this. Lee
>
| Thread: |
Chart Judgement |
| From: |
sueward@easynet.co.uk |
Date: | Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:51:18 -0700 |
Dear All
The recent mini-debate re. the vertex and potential lines of enquiry in a
chart, prompts this post. I wonder if those of you who are new (or new-ish)
to traditional astrology might be helped by a list of points to look at when
judging a chart. It's really meant to show that there are loads of things to
look at or for prior to resorting to more modern additions. I say
'resorting', because my personal viewpoint is that any chart can be read
successfully if the traditional method is followed with some understanding
of that method.
Before anyone starts jumping up and down because they think I'm going to
criticise the use of modern methods, I want to assure you that if you choose
to use them, then fine, that's your choice. I just thought it might be
useful to show the *number* of facets to the traditional method.
You might like to add your own and my list is in no real order, just how my
memory serves. Most, if not all, of these terms are defined and/or explained
at http:\\horary.com.
Planetary hour
Considerations before judgement
Planetary placings
Accidental rulers - I include here only the traditional 7
Natural rulers - as above
Significators
Dispositors
Major aspects
Dignities/debilities
Receptions
Antiscia
Part of Fortune and its dispositor
Just in case this isn't enough:
Possibly other *relevant* parts and their dispositors
Possibly fixed stars
Possibly almutens
Apart from any technical consideration, I don't have the energy to look at
anything else after this lot!
I think that most of us would agree that after a thorough and continuing
study of these points, there just isn't enough lifetime left to thoroughly
study much else.
Like a regime of testing for food allergies, we might want to try adding one
other, newer point at a time to see if there's any adverse reaction
(vomiting in my case!), or whether it can be incorporated harmoniously into
the diet. Sprinkling in a bit of this and a bit of that can cause all sorts
of unpleasant problems: flatulence, diarrohea, nausea, etc, perhaps leading
to chronic problems that only major surgery can resolve.
Well, that's enough of my problems - time for lunch...
Sue
The Traditional Horary Course
sueward@easynet.co.uk
http://www.horary.com
| Thread: |
Vaporization |
| From: |
"Gray,AL,Andy,NAI83,GRAYAL M" <GRAYAL@boat.bt.com> |
Date: | Tue, 24 Sep 1996 01:57:23 -0700 |
>Hell, in for a penny, in for a pound - why stop at horseracing? Has anyone
cracked >the lottery yet?
There was a request in the (AA) journal a while back for lottery
information. I believe it was Graham Bates who was asking for the date of
the win, when/where the ticket was bought, the amount and the natal details
of the winner(s). Haven't heard much about it since. Pleasant Jupiter to
Venus aspects aren't much help although I've won a tenner on consecutive
solar returns.
It would be interesting to see the theory of election used to determine when
a ticket should be bought in order to get a
minimal/modest/substantial/sod-you win. Deb has a slot in the current TA on
whether she will win (I think!)
On the original question raised by Mark, there are a couple of texts
available on sporting contests and horseracing in particular. I'll try and
find the sources. In my local group we have someone who offers ways in which
you can use astrology to back the appropriate 3 legged donkeys :-) This is
usually around the time of the Grand National. Can't say I grokked it fully
as I've lost a couple of shirts so far, the last due to an oversight (square
to 2nd cusp!).
>Angela
Andy
| Thread: |
Reappearing Cat |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Tue, 24 Sep 1996 02:46:23 -0700 |
Hi Deb, in case the postings get out of sync, this is my second reply to your
reply!
I have re-read your answering post, and I guess I have to grudgingly admit you
are right!! All I can proffer in justification of my own stance is that I am
so infuriatingly, pedantically analytical, that I will quite easily turn any
rule into an option of at least two, and then I have to rely on my own
intuitive awareness as to which option applies!! Chronic!
Regards
Angela
| Thread: |
Reappearing Cat |
| From: |
"Angela Reeve UK(UTC +01:00)" <usfmd8x5@ibmmail.com> |
Date: | Tue, 24 Sep 1996 02:18:41 -0700 |
Hi Deb, well I've now stepped down from the post and removed the blindfold -
mind you, there could be snipers!!
I have to disagree with you about the 'old biddie' reference, I'm afraid, but
perhaps that is just one person's experience against another's. However, I do
agree with you that my experience is obviously not as great as your own, and I
do bow to that, although I think the tendency to 'show off one's skill' is not
confined to the student nor synonymous with inexperience, in fact, quite the
reverse. I think it is often a lack of experience which will lead a person to
want to assist, whatever the indication of the chart, but the more
knowledgeable person will be mature enough to recognise that sometimes it is
neither wise nor practical. I have to confess that I have yet to reach the
stage whereby I do not feel obligated in some way to try and help, when asked
to, in matters which are causing a person distress. It feels like the innate
responsibility born out of choosing this area to study in the first place, not
a desire to 'perform' - I do not enjoy putting my neck on the block! But, from
what you say, I will grow out of this!!
It is also a desire to know (insatiable Virgoan curiosity) because every chart
has something to teach and is a revelation of some sort.
re Lottery posting: (you're taking me too seriously, y'knows) '.... luck is
important to me ...." ? Hmmmm, no more than anyone else. Like you, I don't
exactly have the golden touch - in fact if I so much as watch a person play
the 'one-armed bandit' machines, they lose!! But I'd love to find out if there
is an influencing system one could work with. Again, the ol' curiosity thingy.
If it works, prove it - and then use it. I sometimes wonder if there is
anything in the old religio/socialogio conscription that 'one mustn't use such
things for financial gain'(tch,tch)! I can't justify that .... but sure as
pigs can't fly (very often), if there is a workable system it is being very
elusive!! Consequently, it is not so much a case of it holding a position of
great importance, any more so than normal, but mor